Burgold

The immigration thread: American Melting Pot or Get off my Lawn

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19 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Agreed. The literal definition of concentration camp is a group of people packed tightly in together into a prison like space with subpar living conditions that aren't charged or convicted criminals.

 

We are on the verge of becoming Nazi Germany 2.0.

Yet people want to falsely argue semantics.

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1 hour ago, Burgold said:

 

The truth is, it's almost certainly worse than the worst we are imagining. Concentration Camp or Interment Camp are both appropriate enough verbiage. What's not acceptable is what's being done to children.

 

I really don't care what the **** we call it.  Call it Donny's Fun Camp. I don't care.

 

What pisses me off is all the people arguing over what is an appropriate term for it instead of doing something about what is going on there.

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5 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

I really don't care what the **** we call it.  Call it Donny's Fun Camp. I don't care.

 

What pisses me off is all the people arguing over what is an appropriate term for it instead of doing something about what is going on there.

100%

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10 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

I really don't care what the **** we call it.  Call it Donny's Fun Camp. I don't care.

 

What pisses me off is all the people arguing over what is an appropriate term for it instead of doing something about what is going on there.

 

https://www.bayareaborderrelief.org/

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Posted (edited)

This is weird considering the museum has alluded to similarities in recent conflicts to the holocaust and used the never again motto to warn people about oppression, ethnic cleansing, and mass detainment and other such things in the past few years.  Maybe they were pressured to say this from gov officials.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by visionary
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1 hour ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

Yet people want to falsely argue semantics.

 

1 hour ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

What pisses me off is all the people arguing over what is an appropriate term for it instead of doing something about what is going on there.

 

That's the Trump administrations game plan. Argue about the definition of concentration camps. Instead of the real problem which is the inhumane treatment going on at these places.

 

There's supposed to be a vote in both the House and Senate later this week for funding. Let your Representatives know they need to do the right thing or face the consequences come election day. 

 

Though now reading the Trump administration is profiting from all this Im not sure more funding will actually help these kids. The whole situation is a disaster which I'm sure was the original intention.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, clietas said:

There's supposed to be a vote in both the House and Senate later this week for funding. Let your Representatives know they need to do the right thing or face the consequences come election day. 

Matt Gaetz is my rep.  😪

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4 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

Wd8znch.jpg

 

 

Which one do ya'll support killing at will?

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28 minutes ago, LD0506 said:

Image may contain: text

 

If you respond to people pointing out that your hyperbole is incorrect by repeating your hyperbole, and claiming that anybody who points out that it's wrong is both stupid and evil, that's how you know that you don't actually think you have a good argument without the hyperbole.  

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8 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

If you respond to people pointing out that your hyperbole is incorrect by repeating your hyperbole, and claiming that anybody who points out that it's wrong is both stupid and evil, that's how you know that you don't actually think you have a good argument without the hyperbole.  

Except it isn't hyperbole to call these concentration camps. Just like it wasn't hyperbole to call cages cages. Just like it wasn't hyperbole for me to call them interment camps when I first learned about them.

 

I'm not sure if the (pundits, politicians, and other) people arguing against calling a concentration camp a concentration camp are "stupid and evil" though. I suspect they are just plain evil. I don't think stupidity or ignorance is playing that much of a role. Maybe evil and apathetic.

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3 minutes ago, Burgold said:

Except it isn't hyperbole to call these concentration camps

 

Yes it is.  

 

There's certainly similarities.  And I'm not saying that it's impossible or unreasonable to point out the similarities.  (I've never subscribed to the much-used argument that, as long as I can find one specific area in which the Nazis were worse than Group X, then no one is allowed to point out how much Group X is moving in a Nazi-like direction.  People need to point out that things are becoming Nazi-like before there's been six million executions.)  

 

There's certainly differences, too.  And it's valid to point them out, as well.  

 

But if your defense of the term is "Look!  They're concentration camps!  Because there's people locked up in them!  And the court proceedings they're being held for aren't criminal proceedings!  And that's the only qualification that has to be met, for something to be called a concentration camp!", then which side of this debate is making a semantic argument?  

 

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17 minutes ago, Burgold said:

I'm not sure if the (pundits, politicians, and other) people arguing against calling a concentration camp a concentration camp are "stupid and evil" though. I suspect they are just plain evil. I don't think stupidity or ignorance is playing that much of a role. Maybe evil and apathetic.

 

And I want to thank you for graciously deciding to upgrade me from stupid and evil to just plain evil.  

 

Keep pushing that argument.  It's working great.  And keep claiming that the reason you're seeing so many people turning their backs is because somebody else's insistence that only one specific term is permissible is preventing people from focusing on the real problem.  

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Deleted.  Not going to feed the diversion.  

 

 

Edited by Larry

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

 

But if your defense of the term is "Look!  They're concentration camps!  Because there's people locked up in them!  And the court proceedings they're being held for aren't criminal proceedings!  And that's the only qualification that has to be met, for something to be called a concentration camp!", then which side of this debate is making a semantic argument?  

 

Those are hardly the only reasons.

 

There's the forced separation of families.

There's "Concentration camps were a "camp" where people were imprisoned for being born into a certain family, such as Jewish, Austrian, etc" 

https://owlcation.com/humanities/Conditions-In-Concentration-Camps

There's the fact that "The conditions in these "camps" were harsh, much rougher than most prisons." (lack of medical attention, soap, guardians, blankets, beds, etc. suggest that this is true) The numbers of children dying due to easily treated diseases or conditions of neglect are another one.

There's the fact that the government keeps lying about the purpose, nature, and numbers of people in these camps.

Etc.

 

How they are not like Concentration Camps. The Germans were very meticulous in their note taking. They knew who was there, how many, when they got there, etc. From what we understand, in these "camps" no effort was made to gather information so that the children could ever be reunited with their parents.

 

Edited by Burgold
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Holy ****ing Christ!!!!  Stop arguing about a technical term for this ****!  It doesn't ****ing matter!  This is not the important part of the situation!!!!

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Burgold said:

There's the forced separation of families.

 

Then focus on that.  

 

30 minutes ago, Burgold said:

There's "Concentration camps were a "camp" where people were imprisoned for being born into a certain family, such as Jewish, Austrian, etc" 

 

A litmus test which these camps do not meet.  The people in there are there because they, personally, entered the country illegally.  (Or in the case of asylum seekers, showed up at the doorstep, and are awaiting their day in court.)  

 

(At least, not in virtually all cases.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if a few US Citizens or legal immigrants have would up in there because they failed to "give me your papers" when demanded.  Trump's apparent policy of telling the enforcement people to get creative with their abuses, and he'll cover for them seems to be encouraging that.  But I assume they're a small percentage.)  

 

They're not there because of their race. (You can argue that's the basis for Trump's policies, but they are actual laws.)  Not because of who they're related to.  Because of the illegal thing they did.  

 

30 minutes ago, Burgold said:

There's the fact that "The conditions in these "camps" were harsh, much rougher than most prisons." (lack of medical attention, soap, guardians, blankets, beds, etc. suggest that this is true) The numbers of children dying due to easily treated diseases or conditions of neglect are another one.

 

IMO, a really valid point, and one that ought to be being made.  

 

But there's a big difference between "these conditions are like concentration camps" and "these facilities meet 100% of the criteria for being concentration camps".  

 

30 minutes ago, Burgold said:

There's the fact that the government keeps lying about the purpose, nature, and numbers of people in these camps.

 

A point that I've been making for years.  

 

I've said that I think the House Dems need to put language into the next DHS/ICE funding bill specifying that the agency will receive no funding whatsoever until Congress has received a report, listing every child separated from his group since 2016, by name, and where that child is now.  And monthly updates after that.  (Maybe better?  If Congress does not receive said report, then their funding is cut by 10%, and it gets cur another 10% every month until they're in compliance.)  

 

This "oh, gee, your honor, we sent the prisoner someplace else, and we don't remember where we sent him" stunt got thrown out by the courts in the 60s.  (And I don't for a minute believe it's an accident.  It's a deliberate policy.)  

 

30 minutes ago, Burgold said:

How they are not like Concentration Camps. The Germans were very meticulous in their note taking. They knew who was there, how many, when they got there, etc. From what we understand, in these "camps" no effort was made to gather information so that the children could ever be reunited with their parents.

 

Observing that you've just pointed out one way in which they aren't like concentration camps.  

 

I've pointed at another, in this post.  The occupants of the concentration camps were there simply for being of a certain ancestry.  The US internment camps were occupied by people who's "crime" was "having Japanese ancestry, and they happened to live at an address that was within so many miles of the West Coast".  

 

There's another.  Due process.  The folks in these camps are there waiting for a court date.  

 

Yes, I think it's perfectly legitimate to point out that the due process can be legitimately compared to a kangaroo court.  Lack of representation.  Abusive/coercive treatment by their captors, to coerce them into signing things.  I absolutely think there's a ton of **** going on, in there.  But it does exist.  

 

Edited by Larry
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Here's is an article about Sarah Fabian, the government attorney who argued that it's okay for children to sleep on concrete floors with a metallic blanket, etc. It also gives the history of the Flores Agreement (1997) that is supposed to govern the care of children in detention and which the Trump administration is trying to overturn. The Obama administration isn't innocent because they tried to roll back some of the agreement too. 

The article is long and takes a long time to load, but has important information.

 

https://heavy.com/news/2019/06/sarah-fabian/

 

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I trust the judgement of people who wrote books on the global history of concentration camps calling these ones that.

 

But buzz is correct, it doesn't matter what we call them at the end of the day other than a giant **** stain on American history. 

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