AP: Praying football coach placed on paid leave by district

[spaceman47]

I think you are reading into the 50 yard line thing too much.  They do that after NFL games.  Plus if you are praying in a circle of guys, generally one person prays out loud and the rest bow their heads.  It was outside so he was probably not whispering.

[mistertim]

The same thing that compels me at times to pray verbally instead of silently. Sometimes I just do.Other times I am acknowledging God's goodness before others. Tell me why that is wrong and why does it even matter? Does prayer offend you?

Do you jump up on the table in the conference room at work while doing it? To me that's a closer correlation to him apparently needing to do it on the 50 yard line in front of everyone instead of doing it off on the sidelines or something.

[PeterMP]

What does it mean to vocally pray? Sounds like he actually said words out loud. Your tone seems to imply you think he was preaching or being loud. It doesn't say that.

 

Also, he decided to do it again after the Texas organization talked to him. You judge his motive for doing it again as vanity. I think they said "they are wrong and can't tell you to do that" and so he took it up again. Which of us is right? Can we judge that or just assume?

 

With respect to the Bible, I don't think it matter if it is vanity or something else.

 

I'd generally suggest that prayer done in a manner or for purposes not related to communicating God are problematic.

 

Go back to your other post when you talked about him doing it party because he got stomped on.

 

What is the real motivation (in terms of emotions/motivations)?

 

Is that something you think that comes from God?

 

Why kneel after he'd already been talked to?  Was that important in the context of communicating to God?

[PeterMP]

That's silly man.  

 

I wanted to come back to this.  It isn't silly.  It happens.

 

Realistically, it is easy to redefine words/concepts over longer time frames.

 

Even in the context of Christian ideals this has happened over the last 50 years or so.  Consider the concept of evangelical Christians and evolution.  Realistically, the opposition of "evangelical" Christians to evolution is a new concept in terms of the history of Christianity.

 

Realistically, all Christians are called to be evangelists so for one group of them to "steal" the phrase or idea that they are evangelical and then have associated beliefs with that is problematic.

 

But do a google search for evangelical Christians and evolution and see what you get.  It is mostly groups/people talking about the lack of a belief amongst so called evangelical Christians.

 

The same thing with the idea of political conservatives (political conservation used to include concepts of environmental conservation, but that's not the case today).

 

We also see an effort to re-interpret Christian messages and scriptures with respect economic systems (e.g. capitalism and the free enterprise system), economic success (e.g. the prosperity gospel), the role that Christianity should have in directing the country (e.g. this case), and how Christians should address these issue (e.g. aggressively vs non-aggressively (and in many cases, I'd say humbly vs. non-humbly)).

 

Over short periods of time, the impacts are not significant, but over longer periods of time they matter.

 

I don't really want to employee the concepts of "evil" and "good" here, but I believe the idea of all it takes for evil people to succeed is for good people to do nothing can be generalized to the idea of all it takes for anybody to succeed is for others that might disagree to do nothing.

 

Those are big picture concepts and any given one right now might not affect me, but over time as ideas and message change, I am affected.

 

What I call myself, how I describe myself to others, and realistically even my options of whom to vote are being affected.

 

(And it isn't just happening with respect to Christianity.  What it means to be atheist is changing and has changed in my life time.)

[Zguy28]

With respect to the Bible, I don't think it matter if it is vanity or something else.

 

I'd generally suggest that prayer done in a manner or for purposes not related to communicating God are problematic.

 

Go back to your other post when you talked about him doing it party because he got stomped on.

 

What is the real motivation (in terms of emotions/motivations)?

 

Is that something you think that comes from God?

 

Why kneel after he'd already been talked to?  Was that important in the context of communicating to God?

Except I didn't say he did anything because he felt "stomped on". I merely suggested that he might have felt the same way as Burgold (that it was unwarranted pressure). Nobody ever should do something to spite somebody else. Although I'm sure everyone of us has.

Do you jump up on the table in the conference room at work while doing it? To me that's a closer correlation to him apparently needing to do it on the 50 yard line in front of everyone instead of doing it off on the sidelines or something.

Of course I don't. And to even suggest their is slight equivalence is silly. But, at a luncheon with lots of people, or in a restaurant, it would not be unusual to hear me pray out loud prior to eating.

[PeterMP]

Except I didn't say he did anything because he felt "stomped on". I merely suggested that he might have felt the same way as Burgold (that it was unwarranted pressure). Nobody ever should do something to spite somebody else. Although I'm sure everyone of us has.

 

My fault, the stomped on description came from Bugold not you (thought I think it is telling that's how Burgold, a writer and generally good communicator, described it).

 

But I'm still left asking, how would you describe the motivations/emotions that would cause to act as you described (and Burgold described as being stomped on)?

 

Is that something that comes from God?

 

Why kneel?  Does that help you communicate with God better?

[Zguy28]

My fault, the stomped on description came from Bugold not you (thought I think it is telling that's how Burgold, a writer and generally good communicator, described it).

 

But I'm still left asking, how would you describe the motivations/emotions that would cause to act as you described (and Burgold described as being stomped on)?

 

Is that something that comes from God?

 

Why kneel?  Does that help you communicate with God better?

Kneeling is a sign of respect and submission or reverence to God. I see where you're going. If a person kneels to demonstrate his humility, he's not really humble,etc.

Am I off course?

 

I guess you could send an email or something to Joe Gibbs and ask him. He used to kneel on the sidelines and pray in pressure situations regularly.

 

[PeterMP]

Kneeling is a sign of respect and submission or reverence to God. I see where you're going. If a person kneels to demonstrate his humility, he's not really humble,etc.

Am I off course?

 

I guess you could send an email or something to Joe Gibbs and ask him. He used to kneel on the sidelines and pray in pressure situations regularly.

 

I think Hersh has dealt with this general idea pretty well.  I think we all recognize there is a general difference between a spontaneous expression/reaction due to circumstances and something that appears to have been planned.

 

(And I'll note from reading, for the game he missed, he showed up and prayed on the side lines with other people in an public and obvious manner so the kneel at the 50 yard line wasn't a one off event.)

 

Can you answer the questions?

 

(Realistically, I think you were closer with the idea of spite.  I might not even go that far, but how about unmerciful (where I think you can be unmerciful without being spiteful).)

[Zguy28]

I think Hersh has dealt with this general idea pretty well.  I think we all recognize there is a general difference between a spontaneous expression/reaction due to circumstances and something that appears to have been planned.

 

(And I'll note from reading, for the game he missed, he showed up and prayed on the side lines with other people in an public and obvious manner so the kneel at the 50 yard line wasn't a one off event.)

 

Can you answer the questions?

Oh, for myself, I make no bones about it, if you see me kneeling and praying in public its for two reasons: 1) I love the Lord (kneeling is often about one's attitude towards God) 2) I want others to love Him and know Him, for their sake and His, and maybe through that they will see Him.

[endzone_dave]

People have different ways they like to pray.  I'm pretty introverted so my prayers are in private, or in church.  I'll be glad to join anyone in public prayer but I'd never start one.  Some people are extroverted and like to pray in public.  Even though that's not the way I do it, it doesn't mean I'd ever look down on someone who does.

 

I think it's sad our society has gotten to the point where someone praying is considered offensive and punishable. 

[PeterMP]

Oh, for myself, I make no bones about it, if you see me kneeling and praying in public its for two reasons: 1) I love the Lord (kneeling is often about one's attitude towards God) 2) I want others to love Him and know Him, for their sake and His, and maybe through that they will see Him.

 

But we're not talking about you, and you didn't start a thread about yourself.

 

This guy has been asked to not to pray in this setting (potentially vocally was part of the discussion).  He agreed to it.  He then meet with other people that told him he had the right to pray, and then he decided to pray in an obvious manner.

 

He was than not allowed to coach football games.  He followed that up by coming to the next game, sitting on the side lines, and then praying in a notable manner with a group of people.

 

What do you think his motivations are?  Presumably, when you started the thread, it was based on his situation/motivations.  Not your own.

 

Do you think his actions are drawing people to God?

 

(One of the other quotes from Jesus that I think some Christians tend to forget:

 

"If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet.")

[Predicto]

 

I think it's sad our society has gotten to the point where someone praying is considered offensive and punishable. 

 

 

Our society really hasn't "gotten to that point."   That is the Christian persecution complex point of view, but it isn't real.  

[Burgold]

I think there isn't much question that there is a "Look at me! Look at me!" element to  kneeling in the field of play at the 50 yard line. Maybe we can define that as showing humility to God, but it's also  being a pea**** to society. You are making a statement. I don't think it's an outrageous statement, but it's certainly a pronouncement. 

 

I am praying. Look at me, world. 

 

The question which I suggest is that for the culture at large is this more of an affront than asking students to stand and recite the Pledge or stand and take your hat off for the National Anthem. I'd probably argue that it's less. After all, you are merely witnessing something which doesn't demand and there is no pressure put on you (as a fan) to participate.

 

It becomes more gray if there is direct or indirect pressure on the student athlete. Is the athlete looked at differently, are they treated differently if they do not participate in this moment of prayer. If that's the case, then there is potentially a wrong being done to the non Christian player, but the simple act of kneeling... even if it is flamboyant does not rise to the outrageous in my personal book. 

 

Mind you, I think it's okay for us all to make room for others to celebrate and have their moments. This is not necessarily legally true as he works for the county, but it's where I come from.

[Predicto]

It doesn't matter if it is "outrageous" or "flamboyant" or whatever.   It matters how it is associated with the School, or the State.  

 

These cases always come up in the context of schools and courthouses and the like, because those are the only places that potential government endorsement of religion comes up.

 

So drop to your knees in the supermarket, and pray away.  It's fine.  No one is going to persecuting you.  

 

If you are the principal of a public school and you start to lead a prayer at a school assembly, expect to get some grief.

 

And if you are the coach of a public school football team and you lead a prayer on the 50 yard line at an official game of that public school, you are right on the line of what is acceptable, and we all get to post about it.  And some of us get to pretend to be persecuted by modern society.  

[Bacon]

On a sportsmanship level, I can understand how a man leading a vocal prayer at midfield could be seen as off-putting and overly flamboyant. But I do not understand the leap that is being made from personal expression of faith to "violating the federal and state constitutional rights of students or others."

I also don't get the impression that this man had outlined for him precisely what he could and could not do. Or if he did, it was not held to adequately. As far as was reported, it seems that he prayed on his own without pressuring anyone else to do so with him, at least in the instance that got him fired.

So I appreciate the concern of the school, but I sense that they went overboard here. Bang's and Destino's first page posts sum up my feelings very well, though I'm Christian.

[Burgold]

I don't agree with you from a "how things are" perspective. I just think from a practical "can we get along" perspective it's something that we can choose to blink at if we want to.

 

There are lots of little things I can find offensive if I want to, but I think it's easier to compromise within society to a degree.  I can get outraged by a Christmas tree in front of the White House if I want to, but frankly, it's pretty and I don't mind others celebrating their beliefs. Likewise, if someone doesn't want to stand during the National Anthem it probably irks me, but I can accept their choice. Hopefully, when it's my turn to celebrate or practice my beliefs those who don't think as I do will offer me the same latitude.

I do understand that as a matter of law and formal structure this employee of the county might be in the wrong to make religious displays while on the job, but I also think before we enforce, enact, or make a stink we ought to decide if the harm (kneeling on the 50) is worth it. 

 

Ultimately, society and not our individual tolerance levels decide that and that's as it should be, but I don't mind putting my two cents out there.

[PleaseBlitz]

I was just thinking last Sunday how there really aren't enough overt displays of religion in football.  

[Burgold]

I was just thinking last Sunday how there really aren't enough overt displays of religion in football.  

That's funny, PleaseBlitz. Yeah, religious demonstrations may actually be at their highest in the realm of sports.

[PleaseBlitz]

More from the FOOTBALL PLUS RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION clickbait file, from today's Washington Post:

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2015/11/03/high-school-football-player-ejected-for-pointing-to-sky-after-touchdown/

 

 

Headline:  High school football player ejected for pointing to sky after touchdown

 

First 3 paragraphs:  

 

A senior running back at an Arizona high school says he was ejected from an Oct. 30 football game for unsportsmanlike conduct when he pointed to the sky in a religious gesture athletes everywhere often make after scoring a touchdown.

 

“I put my hand up to my face mask and I pointed to the sky,” Pedro Banda, a running back at Dysart High School in El Mirage, told ABC’s Phoenix affliate KNXV, “and I looked up for about four seconds.”

 

Banda’s score was no ordinary touchdown; it put his team into the playoffs for the first time in 25 years. But he was flagged and ejected, making him ineligible for this weekend’s playoff game.

 

 

Buried later in the story:  “They thought I was saying I was number one and I was taunting the other team,” Banda said. Tyrus Timbrooks, athletic director at Dysart, said there was a little more to the story. Banda was ejected because the transgression was his second of the game. Earlier, he had been flagged for an aggressive argument with one of the opposing players.

[Zguy28]

What do you think his motivations are?  Presumably, when you started the thread, it was based on his situation/motivations.  Not your own.

 

 

 

It is impossible to say with certainty. I prefer to give benefit of the doubt, others do not apparently.

 

Do you think his actions are drawing people to God?

 

Again, impossible to say. Online? Looks not, at least not here (this doesn't surprise me). In person? Maybe. Others willingly joined him, both when on the field and in the stands.

 

 

(One of the other quotes from Jesus that I think some Christians tend to forget:

 

"If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet.")

 

Probably because that command was given to the disciples who were sent on a specific mission that was limited to Israel, by Jesus during his earthly ministry.

 

I think this thread has probably run its course.

[PeterMP]

It is impossible to say with certainty. I prefer to give benefit of the doubt, others do not apparently.

 

Again, impossible to say. Online? Looks not, at least not here (this doesn't surprise me). In person? Maybe. Others willingly joined him, both when on the field and in the stands.

 

Probably because that command was given to the disciples who were sent on a specific mission that was limited to Israel, by Jesus during his earthly ministry.

 

I think this thread has probably run its course.

 

I'd generally say then if we can't really say anything useful or meaningful about the situation, this might not be a cause that Christians want to rally around or even emphasize.  Sometimes the best thing to do in a situation where you can't draw any meaningful conclusions is just to let it go.

 

If there is no clear Christian worthy objective/message, as a Christian, I'm not sure the value of even bringing it up.

 

I'll also point out that essentially your last point is an excuse to ignore almost everything Jesus said.  

 

The Beatitudes:

 

Oh they were subject to his time in Israel (where Jesus was very clear it was a mission to the Jews) at his time on Earth.

 

I personally think even today those words might have some value to us as Christians and might even be meaningful in the context of drawing people to God.

[Corcaigh]

The war on Christians continues unabated.

 

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/11/05/war-on-christmas-starbucks-new-red-cups-are-emblematic-of-the-christian-culture-cleansing-of-the-west/

[PokerPacker]

The war on Christians continues unabated.

 

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/11/05/war-on-christmas-starbucks-new-red-cups-are-emblematic-of-the-christian-culture-cleansing-of-the-west/

I don't know how Starbucks customers will live with the horrors they've now witnessed.