Event_Horizon Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 :eyeroll: on so many levels... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Pride and vanity are often times veiled behind the mask of righteousness. What's my problem with a woman who went to a public school baccalaureate service and was so disturbed by a Muslim prayer that she stood outside the school and prayed for the people inside to be delivered? Ok....you're right no problem at all. I find it interesting that the Muslim parents of the student who prayed didn't walk out on the Christians when they prayed, sang and spoke. Seriously, the problem is on our side of the fence. Yeah I don't agree with anything that you're saying at all and you're stance that "our side" are doing something wrong is absurd. There is no "our side" because religions have been disapproving of eachother for as long as there have been religions. That willful disrespect is not a one way street and frankly it's depressing that I even have to point that out. Telling people how to behave a certain way instead of being patient, understanding, and respectful of their feelings on these issues isn't going to bring any of us closer. Coach wants to pray? Let the man do his thing. It's his faith after all. If a student wants to walk out understand that she did what she felt was right at the time and start from there. Make it so that hopefully next time she doesn't feel she needs to do so, but know that if she wants to, there is nothing wrong with choosing not to participate. It's got to start somewhere and the only way diversity wins is if we celebrate it. Telling people to hide their differences breeds resentment. Just going to quote this rhetorical question because we all know what the response would be, heck what if he coach was a Muslim and the game time began just after the evening call to prayer. What would the response be if he pulled his prayer rug out and prayed according to the teachings of his faith? I'm sure many Christians would react awfully too it. You would probably insist that he not be allowed to pray as well because I'm sure being consistent is important to you. I'd keep on saying what I've been saying, let the man pray. What does it matter? I draw the line at atheists operating as Satanists however because I'm a grown up and I don't accept that logical arguments made in bad faith deserve to be taken seriously. I'm not going to argue the rights of a spoof religion any more than I'm going to entertain an argument about people wanting to marry furniture when discussing marriage rights in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 :eyeroll: on so many levels... You keep saying you are leaving this thread so please do since you are adding nothing to an otherwise interesting conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Event_Horizon Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Sure thing. My pleasure. You Libtards have at it. I'm gonna go hurt something badly in Destiny and stick to the game and movie threads. At least there are smart folks in those few threads Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Sure thing. My pleasure. You Libtards have at it. I'm gonna go hurt something badly in Destiny and stick to the game and movie threads. At least there are smart folks in those few threads I hope you don't consider yourself religious in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Event_Horizon Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 I don't. God scorned me long ago to suffer fools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Sure thing. My pleasure. You Libtards have at it. I'm gonna go hurt something badly in Destiny and stick to the game and movie threads. At least there are smart folks in those few threads A tad passive-aggressive are we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 This thread reminds me of something I pointed out to my wife when we were at a recent military ball. How come nobody has made a big deal about invocation at things like military events? Do things like that get done at civilian events? I don't have any desire for them to go away. I was just really curious once I started thinking about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Which previously-banned poster is Event Horizon? Taking bets here. ps - there is nothing wrong with prayer as long as the State is not seen to be endorsing the prayer. In 99.9% of situations, its an easy line to draw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Event_Horizon Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 ^What? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerPacker Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Which previously-banned poster is Event Horizon? Taking bets here. When's the last time Extreme/Executioner returned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redskins Diehard Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 When it comes to a public school, YES. Common sense is all that is needed for these dumb hypotheticals. Ha,looking back it was actually you who commended the class president. Hilarious. So who gets to set the threshold for acceptable prayer in your world? You? Me? The most likely to be offended? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redskins Diehard Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 I'm sure many Christians would react awfully too it. You would probably insist that he not be allowed to pray as well because I'm sure being consistent is important to you. I'd keep on saying what I've been saying, let the man pray. I agree 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Ha,looking back it was actually you who commended the class president. Hilarious. So who gets to set the threshold for acceptable prayer in your world? You? Me? The most likely to be offended? Again, the answer is: "is the schools (ie the State) essentially endorsing the prayer/religion? If so, then it's not good. If not, then there is no problem." When you have a teacher leading a prayer in a classroom, it is over the line. When you have a student praying on their own before a test, it is fine. 99.9 percent of the time it is a really easy rule to apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenaa Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Which previously-banned poster is Event Horizon? Taking bets here. ps - there is nothing wrong with prayer as long as the State is not seen to be endorsing the prayer. In 99.9% of situations, its an easy line to draw. Well, his post count remains at 0. Either he's currently banned, or there's some shenanigans going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dont Taze Me Bro Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Well, his post count remains at 0. Either he's currently banned, or there's some shenanigans going on. I'd normally agree with this, especially when someone's post count is zero point zero and they came to post straight in the tailgate. But, he first posted in the gaming thread and came out and said that he has been following that thread for a while and decided to make an account and start posting (or something like that). It's very possible one could come across that thread and our forums off a search for specific games/forums/threads/etc. Plus, I don't know anyone that was recently banned that was active in our gaming/movie threads. So I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Usually when one is banned and comes back, they jump right in the RTT or some really specific threads that only a few post in regularly like the Wrestling thread or the Boxing thread or jump straight back into one of the controversial threads like the name change one, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Ha,looking back it was actually you who commended the class president. Hilarious. So who gets to set the threshold for acceptable prayer in your world? You? Me? The most likely to be offended? You should learn about a concept called nuance. The class president was talking about overt prayers like what the coach was doing. Not about hypothetical injuries. Seriously, learn about nuance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redskins Diehard Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Again, the answer is: "is the schools (ie the State) essentially endorsing the prayer/religion? If so, then it's not good. If not, then there is no problem." When you have a teacher leading a prayer in a classroom, it is over the line. When you have a student praying on their own before a test, it is fine. 99.9 percent of the time it is a really easy rule to apply. Your 2 scenarios don't apply to this situation or what is being discussed in this thread. Not sure if that means this particular scenario falls in the .1%. This state employee was not "leading" a prayer. He was silently praying. But still executing and "overt display of religion". That is prohibited. My question was is it still prohibited in the context of an injury to a student on the field. You should learn about a concept called nuance. The class president was talking about overt prayers like what the coach was doing. Not about hypothetical injuries. Seriously, learn about nuance.Thank you for the advice! You sure know a lot about the class president from that sentence. Seriously, open your mind...the issue is state sponsored/endorsement of religion which is easy to discuss in simple scenarios. Life is not always simple as much as you may like it to be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 I think I feel the same way about this as I do about the reciting of the Pledge of Allegiance. I have no problems with it being recited in school every morning. Similarly, I have no issues with it being said by government leaders or in other institutions. Likewise, I feel people should stand and remove their caps during the singing of the National Anthem. That said, I respect that some people's religion or philosophy runs counter to saying the Pledge or making certain symbolic gestures. In that case, those people are entitled to sit respectfully through the act. I've done it. I've spent hours at a Presidential Prayer Breakfast with priests, ministers, and others rising and praying vocally. I repeated the parts I felt comfortable repeating, amended on the fly other parts, jkept silent at other times, and didn't make a fuss. If the football coach silently takes a knee and prays for a bit before and after the game it does no harm. I do think his need to do it at the 50 yard line has a little bit of "Look at me! Look at me!" in it and he probably is hoping to inspire others to follow his example. That said this gesture is not creating havoc or hurt. Now, if he shows favoritism to players who join him and players that don't join in always ride the bench... that's a different issue, but just like standing for the Anthem or reciting the Pledge... if that's not your thing the football fan or sideline players can endure the display of a guy getting on his knee without harm. So, it's okay in my book. I will say that in middle school, I quit the school choir because I couldn't take singing all the religious stuff and Christmas stuff. Mind you, I also argued that I would have been okay if our repertoire contained fifteen Christmas songs and just one or two Hanukkah tunes. A token would have sufficed to create equality for me. The rejection of inclusion made me feel excluded from the group. I didn't make a big deal, my parents didn't make a big deal, but I did quit the "team" That's where the line is for me though. As a minority, I need to accept, respect, and honor the majority's traditions. I'm fine with that. There's a ton of beauty in Christmas thought, prayer, and display. If, however, you forcibly exclude my traditions I have a problem or if you punish me for having my traditions I have a problem. That's the case that needs to be made if you are going to suspend this coach in my book, regardless of where he teaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted November 3, 2015 Author Share Posted November 3, 2015 I think I feel the same way about this as I do about the reciting of the Pledge of Allegiance. I have no problems with it being recited in school every morning. Similarly, I have no issues with it being said by government leaders or in other institutions. Likewise, I feel people should stand and remove their caps during the singing of the National Anthem. That said, I respect that some people's religion or philosophy runs counter to saying the Pledge or making certain symbolic gestures. In that case, those people are entitled to sit respectfully through the act. I've done it. I've spent hours at a Presidential Prayer Breakfast with priests, ministers, and others rising and praying vocally. I repeated the parts I felt comfortable repeating, amended on the fly other parts, jkept silent at other times, and didn't make a fuss. If the football coach silently takes a knee and prays for a bit before and after the game it does no harm. I do think his need to do it at the 50 yard line has a little bit of "Look at me! Look at me!" in it and he probably is hoping to inspire others to follow his example. That said this gesture is not creating havoc or hurt. Now, if he shows favoritism to players who join him and players that don't join in always ride the bench... that's a different issue, but just like standing for the Anthem or reciting the Pledge... if that's not your thing the football fan or sideline players can endure the display of a guy getting on his knee without harm. So, it's okay in my book. I will say that in middle school, I quit the school choir because I couldn't take singing all the religious stuff and Christmas stuff. Mind you, I also argued that I would have been okay if our repertoire contained fifteen Christmas songs and just one or two Hanukkah tunes. A token would have sufficed to create equality for me. The rejection of inclusion made me feel excluded from the group. I didn't make a big deal, my parents didn't make a big deal, but I did quit the "team" That's where the line is for me though. As a minority, I need to accept, respect, and honor the majority's traditions. I'm fine with that. There's a ton of beauty in Christmas thought, prayer, and display. If, however, you forcibly exclude my traditions I have a problem or if you punish me for having my traditions I have a problem. That's the case that needs to be made if you are going to suspend this coach in my book, regardless of where he teaches. Burg, I agree with this all. I've often been in churches where they would sing patriotic tunes, and I kept silent. Not that I hate America, but it felt inappropriate. So I just didn't sing. I wonder, given your statement "If, however, you forcibly exclude my traditions I have a problem or if you punish me for having my traditions I have a problem", if that's how this assistant coach felt as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 He may have felt a little stomped on. He probably has been a little stomped on. I'm not sure if that is the deciding factor though. To me, it's mostly about the kids and the community. We should all make room for each other and while that includes teachers and coaches, they need to be a little more careful as caretakers and people in position of power that they are not exercising undue influence. From a distance, I have no problem with this coach kneeling down silently on the sideline or at the 50. I think people of other faiths or beliefs should be able to withstand the gesture. As I said, I draw the line if the coach makes decision based on participation or lack thereof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Your 2 scenarios don't apply to this situation or what is being discussed in this thread. Not sure if that means this particular scenario falls in the .1%. This state employee was not "leading" a prayer. He was silently praying. But still executing and "overt display of religion". That is prohibited. My question was is it still prohibited in the context of an injury to a student on the field. Thank you for the advice! You sure know a lot about the class president from that sentence. Seriously, open your mind...the issue is state sponsored/endorsement of religion which is easy to discuss in simple scenarios. Life is not always simple as much as you may like it to be Except he wasn't praying silently for a really long time. The article says he vocally prayed. He stopped when asked but then he decided he needed to be on display on the 50 yard line cause some Texas group encouraged him to do so. As far as your need to go over hypotheticals let me say that in all the years I've coached and officiated, I've never seen a coach gather players nor lead a prayer before or after a game or when a player was injured unless I was at a game between private schools. They always do prayers before the game. If a coach was vocally trying to get everyone to take a knee and pray over an injury, I'm sure some would complain, but again, I've never seen it. If a coach took a knee on his own and prayed as a player was injured, I bet there isn't a soul that would complain or care. Feel free to continue with hypotheticals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted November 3, 2015 Author Share Posted November 3, 2015 Except he wasn't praying silently for a really long time. The article says he vocally prayed. He stopped when asked but then he decided he needed to be on display on the 50 yard line cause some Texas group encouraged him to do so. As far as your need to go over hypotheticals let me say that in all the years I've coached and officiated, I've never seen a coach gather players nor lead a prayer before or after a game or when a player was injured unless I was at a game between private schools. They always do prayers before the game. If a coach was vocally trying to get everyone to take a knee and pray over an injury, I'm sure some would complain, but again, I've never seen it. If a coach took a knee on his own and prayed as a player was injured, I bet there isn't a soul that would complain or care. Feel free to continue with hypotheticals. What does it mean to vocally pray? Sounds like he actually said words out loud. Your tone seems to imply you think he was preaching or being loud. It doesn't say that. Also, he decided to do it again after the Texas organization talked to him. You judge his motive for doing it again as vanity. I think they said "they are wrong and can't tell you to do that" and so he took it up again. Which of us is right? Can we judge that or just assume? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 What does it mean to vocally pray? Sounds like he actually said words out loud. Your tone seems to imply you think he was preaching or being loud. It doesn't say that. Also, he decided to do it again after the Texas organization talked to him. You judge his motive for doing it again as vanity. I think they said "they are wrong and can't tell you to do that" and so he took it up again. Which of us is right? Can we judge that or just assume I used the words the article says. I didn't say he was preaching, but he certainly seemed to be leading some kids in prayer. (Again, based on the article) Yes, I can judge his motives cause he can just as easily bow his head to pray somewhere on the sidelines or wait until he gets home or to his office. Something compels him to pray on the 50 yard line. For that matter, what compelled him to be vocal in any way to begin with out on the field? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted November 3, 2015 Author Share Posted November 3, 2015 I used the words the article says. I didn't say he was preaching, but he certainly seemed to be leading some kids in prayer. (Again, based on the article) Yes, I can judge his motives cause he can just as easily bow his head to pray somewhere on the sidelines or wait until he gets home or to his office. Something compels him to pray on the 50 yard line. For that matter, what compelled him to be vocal in any way to begin with out on the field? The same thing that compels me at times to pray verbally instead of silently. Sometimes I just do.Other times I am acknowledging God's goodness before others. Tell me why that is wrong and why does it even matter? Does prayer offend you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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