LetThePointsSoar Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Great OP Burg. The apathy is deafening. First Year Records - Bill Belichick – 2000 New England Patriots - 05-11 Bill Walsh – 1979 San Francisco 49ers - 02-14 Tom Coughlin - 1995 Jacksonville Jaguars - 04-12 Tom Landry - 1960 - Dallas Cowboys - 00-11-1 Chuck Noll - 1969 - Pittsburg Stellers - 01-13 Bill Parcells - 1983 - New York Giants - 03-12 Jimmy Johnson - 1989 - Dallas Cowboys -01-15 Jay Gruden - 2014 - Washington Redskins - 03-13 I like where you're going....but I have a feeling that if one took the time to look at first year records of coaches who still went on to fail miseraly, you may find the same. I'm still not certain how I feel about Jay, and hope he succeeds, but this year will be interesting needless to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 You really think there is any chance he'll survive failing with a second QB? I think what Jumbo has been trying to say, is that there are a lot of other things that will factor into Jay's 'grade' at the end of the season besides the QB situation. Cousins could fail, but Jay could show enough improvement/promise in other areas to keep his job. I could be wrong. I usually are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 I think what Jumbo has been trying to say, is that there are a lot of other things that will factor into Jay's 'grade' at the end of the season besides the QB situation. Cousins could fail, but Jay could show enough improvement/promise in other areas to keep his job. I could be wrong. I usually are. If Cousins bombs, I just don't see how the team is going to win more than a couple games. Cousins needs to succeed in order to stabilize the position and the offense. If he struggles and Jay benches him midway through the season, that'll be it. If we go into the offseason immediately needing to address the QB position with a draft pick (the most likely outcome), then Jay should and probably will be fired. You don't give him a third shot at ruining another young QB. You let McCloughan bring in his head coach and QB together and begin a proper rebuild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo'sRangers Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPm3V2rwr64 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 It does feel like we're being placated. Since the news came down about the switch, I have thought several times how it's the second step we've made towards becoming a 'normal team'(Step 1. hire real GM)...but then I remember we're the Redskins, and our owner does something every year to piss us off. What did he do last year? The year before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 First Year Records - Bill Belichick – 2000 New England Patriots - 05-11 Bill Walsh – 1979 San Francisco 49ers - 02-14 Tom Coughlin - 1995 Jacksonville Jaguars - 04-12 Tom Landry - 1960 - Dallas Cowboys - 00-11-1 Chuck Noll - 1969 - Pittsburg Stellers - 01-13 Bill Parcells - 1983 - New York Giants - 03-12 Jimmy Johnson - 1989 - Dallas Cowboys -01-15 Jay Gruden - 2014 - Washington Redskins - 03-13 Interesting but a few issues and questions. A minor one, but Belichik was the coach of the Browns for 5 years prior to ever being the coach of the Patriots, it was not his first year. Second, I really believe the coaches of the 60s just were in a different era of the NFL and are just incomparable. The introduction of free agency and the salary cap and many other things have greatly changed how long it takes to build a team, and how easy it is to keep a team together. I think a list of first year HC success may show its really hard, and many coaches that both fail, and succeed, have poor records their first year. What MAY be a more telling study is then how well do they do in their second year? From my studies, the good coaches pull themselves up by their bootstraps and in year 2 have great improvement. Few of them take 3 years to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laron Burgundy Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Just go grab Jim Harbaugh. 4 years of excitement, which at this point would be the mythical oasis in the desert. Retread coach 2016! Don't see any reason he'd want to coach here when he may have a better team in Michigan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSO Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 The move to bench RGIII does not get made without the support of the General Manager, period. You guys don't think Scott M knows how to watch tape and grade a QB? Gruden specifically said it was a decision he and the GM came to. So, I guess we fire GMSM too if this doesn't work out? Bottom line, the tape shows Cousins is better. period. That's all we have to go on. Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING else at this point is an agenda. On either side. Yup sir doo dee, quite a few of us saw this coming. Popular decisions = Scot McCloughan, exclusively. Unpopular decisions = Jay Gruden, exclusively. They don't talk much, just give each other the look when passing by in the hallways. Another one I always find funny and a perfect example of the above: Joe Barry = Jay Gruden's hire. Bill Callahan = Scot McCloughan's hire. I've literally read this like ten times in the last few days. From prominent posters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laron Burgundy Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 The move to bench RGIII does not get made without the support of the General Manager, period. You guys don't think Scott M knows how to watch tape and grade a QB? Gruden specifically said it was a decision he and the GM came to. So, I guess we fire GMSM too if this doesn't work out? Bottom line, the tape shows Cousins is better. period. That's all we have to go on. Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING else at this point is an agenda. On either side. Gruden said everyone was on the same page, not that they made the decision together. Most likely it was suggested by Gruden and Scot said that was his decision to make. Trying to scapegoat responsibility is exactly how we kept Haslett and Allen longer than we should have. If our organization is finally being ran correctly, then I'm not sure how we're trying to credit a gm with a coach's decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintGibbs Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 What did he do last year? The year before? Allowing Bruce to make football decisions. He's a money guy. Letting Bruce hire a head coach that doesn't run an offense suited to our personnel Both of these were major points of contention on this board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted September 2, 2015 Author Share Posted September 2, 2015 Joe Barry = Jay Gruden's hire. Bill Callahan = Scot McCloughan's hire. I think that's because no one can find a rational reason for the Barry hire. His Detroit outing was horrible. You can qualify it by saying that he wasn't the real DC, he had no talent, or in other ways, but bottom line was that the defenses he led were terrible and more than that, over two years never got better and may even have gotten worse. In addition, Barry's work in San Diego never drew raves. No one ever touted that San Diego defense as one of the best, but more importantly no one ever talked up any of his linebackers. So, why would McCloughan pluck this guy. What's there on his resume, in his history, or anywhere that screams... I'm ready! It feels like someone had to go to bat for him. Someone who knew him, liked him, and believed in him. This is the kind of hire that screams out "buddy system." It may turn out to be a good hire. Heck, it may turn out to be a great hire. The thing is, it mostly seemed a pre-ordained hire. We kept hearing that Barry was their man pretty much from the get go even though there were much better candidates (on paper) available. So, maybe a 100% Gruden pick is high, but I think 95% sits about right. As for Callahan, I think all on board were happy with the pick. I was a little surprised that Foerster was let go. He had a great reputation, but truth is, that while he designed a great run blocking system, his pass pro was ineffective and most condemning, no one developed under his watch. The reason Callahan feels like McCloughan pick is mostly due to the caliber of guy that Gruden chooses. After all, last year or this year, what "WOW!" coaching hire has Gruden made? They've all been guys he's worked with unless I've fallen prey to the folk myth. More, the way Gruden resisted or when forced dismissively interviewed the "A" candidates for DC makes it feel like Jay wanted people that he could bring in who would be "his guys." Callahan had no ties to Gruden and has a reputation equal to or better than the head coach's. Maybe Callahan was high on Gruden's wish list, but if I had to guess I'd say that McCloughan was more instrumental in getting him. That's why McCloughan doesn't get credit for the Barry hire, but does for Callahan. I do believe the Redskins when Scott said that Jay had the right to veto any coach though. It's okay to hire or recommend your friends, that gets done a lot in every business, but when you do... you better be right about it. You're putting your reputation on the line for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Popular decisions = Scot McCloughan, exclusively. Unpopular decisions = Jay Gruden, exclusively. They don't talk much, just give each other the look when passing by in the hallways. I've literally read this like ten times in the last few days. From prominent posters. and drumrollllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll..... Gruden said everyone was on the same page, not that they made the decision together. Most likely it was suggested by Gruden and Scot said that was his decision to make. Trying to scapegoat responsibility is exactly how we kept Haslett and Allen longer than we should have. If our organization is finally being ran correctly, then I'm not sure how we're trying to credit a gm with a coach's decision. DING DING DING DING DING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laron Burgundy Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 and drumrollllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll..... DING DING DING DING DING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Still waiting on an explanation why a gm should overrule a coach on a coach's decision. Unless, of course, you think Scot will also be calling plays for Gruden since, you know, he watches film too so he clearly is a partner in coaching.I suppose it's just easier to avoid that argument, I don't blame you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Still waiting on an explanation why a gm should overrule a coach on a coach's decision. . Yes I owe that to you! Sit tight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Burgy is Tom Hanks from Saving Private Ryan "Earn this!" "Am I a good coach/gm/owner/franchise?" *Tearful plead* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laron Burgundy Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Yes I owe that to you! Sit tight. Owe or not I don't really see you coming up with a logical reason for your illogical statement. I already know I'll be sitting tight for eternity before I get a good answer. It would be the same reasoning behind someone blaming Gruden for us drafting scherff over williams, and thing is, Gruden likely gave more input on that choice! Would I ever place responsibility on a coach for a gm's decision? No, that's just silliness zoony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 I read so much assertiveness and surety (among other things) in so many threads from guys (not referring to the OP here) who project a very strong confidence in their "smartness." And yet what I often find in their posts in terms of critical thinking the way it's defined in big boy circles reminds me of one of Taco's lines from The League. It's his reply to being challenged on using the term "puppies" for a bunch of old mutts (paraphrasing). Taco: "Of course, I know a 'puppy' is not a breed---it's an ethnicity...like "Canadian" or "vampire." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted September 2, 2015 Author Share Posted September 2, 2015 I have no confidence in my smartness but am sanguine about my intelligence. That quote about puppies and vampires is brilliant lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Stupid Loser Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 If we go into the offseason immediately needing to address the QB position with a draft pick (the most likely outcome), then Jay should and probably will be fired. You don't give him a third shot at ruining another young QB. You let McCloughan bring in his head coach and QB together and begin a proper rebuild. Why do you believe Jay has or will ruin any QBs? Nobody ruined Robert or Kirk or Colt. Nobody ruined Jason Campbell. Nobody ruined the congressman from Tennesee. Nobody ruined Patrick Ramsey. Well, Spurrier may have ruined him, I'm not sure. They just weren't very good. Robert is just not an NFL QB. The other guys, just not good enough to be a franchise QB. Journeymen, maybe. Shanny didn't ruin anybody, neither is Gruden. Scot drafts the next Andrew Luck, head coach Homer Simpson is a hall of famer. That simple. Coaches don't make franchise QBs, they coach franchise QBs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Still waiting on an explanation why a gm should overrule a coach on a coach's decision. Unless, of course, you think Scot will also be calling plays for Gruden since, you know, he watches film too so he clearly is a partner in coaching. I suppose it's just easier to avoid that argument, I don't blame you. Good edit, Laron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSO Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 I think that's because no one can find a rational reason for the Barry hire. His Detroit outing was horrible. You can qualify it by saying that he wasn't the real DC, he had no talent, or in other ways, but bottom line was that the defenses he led were terrible and more than that, over two years never got better and may even have gotten worse. In addition, Barry's work in San Diego never drew raves. No one ever touted that San Diego defense as one of the best, but more importantly no one ever talked up any of his linebackers. ........................................ It's okay to hire or recommend your friends, that gets done a lot in every business, but when you do... you better be right about it. You're putting your reputation on the line for them. Not you, too, Burgold! You really went out on a speculative limb here, so I'm going to pull you back before it gets cut off. Here are the facts: 1) Scot, since getting hired, has stated that the Head Coach brings in HIS OWN guys to coach, and that he doesn't have much to do with it outside of being a sounding board if they'd like. Exact quote here: McCLOUGHAN: “It’s Jay’s call. The head coach hires the coaches. If he needs a sounding board at all, I’ll be there, but the head coach hires his coaches. They work for him.” 2) Bill Callahan has more ties to both Jay Gruden and Bruce Allen than he does Scot McCloughan: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/football-insider/wp/2015/01/16/thoughts-on-the-redskins-hiring-of-bill-callahan-as-offensive-line-coach/ This is yet another Bruce Allen connection. Callahan and Allen worked together with the Raiders, and Callahan worked under Jon Gruden. The relationship with Gruden should help because Jay Gruden is a disciple of his older brother’s, so Callahan will have familiarity with Jay’s philosophies, and how he wants to run the offense. Also: http://espn.go.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/14716/redskins-thoughts-bill-callahan For what it’s worth, Callahan and Jay Gruden share the same agent – as does potential defensive coordinator Vic Fangio (and an earlier candidate, secondary coach Ed Donatell, who could always come on board if Fangio is hired). Connections and relationships matter a lot in this industry. Indeed, in Oakland, Callahan coached with Gruden’s brother, Jon, and worked for Redskins president Bruce Allen. So, yeah... no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Pointed out all that stuff myself awhile back, sub, more than once too, in other threads to folks who ignored it all, of course, and continue on saying the same incorrect things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted September 2, 2015 Author Share Posted September 2, 2015 Wait a minute, now I'm confused Submitted. I thought your argument was that Barry was all on Gruden, but Callahan was all on McCloughan (hmm... they rhyme... Gruden, McCloughan, potato/Patahto... never mind) I certanly don't think that McCloughan circumvented or forced any coach on Gruden... not only would that be bad and detrimental, it'd make Scott a liar. I will come clean to say I forgot or never knew much of the Callahan/Gruden stuff you pointed out. However, I still say the Barry hire is 100% on Jay. The others... :evilg: Edit: Funny thing is, I thought I was supporting your complaint Submittedone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSO Posted September 2, 2015 Share Posted September 2, 2015 Wait a minute, now I'm confused Submitted. I thought your argument was that Barry was all on Gruden, but Callahan was all on McCloughan (hmm... they rhyme... Gruden, McCloughan, potato/Patahto... never mind) I certanly don't think that McCloughan circumvented or forced any coach on Gruden... not only would that be bad and detrimental, it'd make Scott a liar. I will come clean to say I forgot or never knew much of the Callahan/Gruden stuff you pointed out. However, I still say the Barry hire is 100% on Jay. The others... :evilg: Edit: Funny thing is, I thought I was supporting your complaint Submittedone I was pointing out the logical fallacy that posters have set up, specifically ones who want to assign blame selectively depending on their affinity for certain guys over others, when it comes to the organizational roles and responsibilities. So we're seeing Barry (poor decision?) directly attributed to Jay, while Callahan (great decision) is directly attributed to Scot. And that's just one example. It's, frankly, disturbing. Maybe I misread your post, but I thought you were defending why that's reasonable? Thought I was pretty clear, but I guess not, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted September 2, 2015 Author Share Posted September 2, 2015 More than likely you were and I was afflicted by morning brain. Saw something and my fingers typed faster than my brain synapsed. It is very natural to look for villains and scapegoats though... esp. if it serves the reality you are creating. It can even be healthy as long as you "be right." More often than not created realities cause headaches, but we all rely on constructs for our betterment and detriment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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