pjfootballer Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Good news on O'Day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOSKINS_08 Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Chris Davis better be next. Great news about O'Day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capcrunch98 Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 I think it's time to face up to the fact that it's a good time to blow this all up and re-load. This team as it stands can't compete. Greinke or someone like him would make us better, but I don't think he'd propel us into the playoffs. As much as it pains me to say it, trade Jones and everyone but Schoop and Machado, try to get a haul of young talent like we got from the Bedard trade, cut payroll and try to get some cheap young controllable talent in the system. We need more Machados and less 200 million dollar players. This is nonsensical as facts do not support your assertion that this team can't compete. We just watched a team with poor starting pitching win the World Series and the O's are two seasons removed from a 96 win division championship. The Bullpen is as good as ever. Chances are the starting pitching will bounce back this season and hopefully this team will have full seasons from Schoop, Hardy, Jones, Tillman, Gonzo and Wieters. If the O's get anything out of the DH and corner outfield positions, they are significantly better than last season and will compete for the division. Having an Ace that is paid a huge amount of money doesn't guarantee success. Not to mention there is no way you can justify this to your fanbase who endured 15 years of complete sucking to get to the past few seasons of being competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 This is nonsensical as facts do not support your assertion that this team can't compete. We just watched a team with poor starting pitching win the World Series and the O's are two seasons removed from a 96 win division championship. The Bullpen is as good as ever. Chances are the starting pitching will bounce back this season and hopefully this team will have full seasons from Schoop, Hardy, Jones, Tillman, Gonzo and Wieters. If the O's get anything out of the DH and corner outfield positions, they are significantly better than last season and will compete for the division. Having an Ace that is paid a huge amount of money doesn't guarantee success. This team as currently constructed had to sweep the Yankees on the final weekend to finish 81-81. If you can explain to me how that makes them close to winning 96 games, I'd love to hear it. Chances are the starting pitching will bounce back based on what? Losing Chen is a great way to start there. Who are you going to bet on having a great year? Ubaldo? Bundy? Gausman is the only guy that hasn't reached his ceiling yet aside from Bundy. IIRC according to Bundy's contract he HAS to be on the ML squad this year or else they can lose him like he's a Rule 5 guy, he'll be out on waivers. So what are you going to do with a former stud prospect who hasn't been healthy? Hand him a starting rotation spot or put him in the bullpen and hope for the best? Hardy? 33 years old. Jones? Declining OPS 4 years in a row, hasn't been over .800 since 2013. Tillman and Gonzo get by on smoke an d mirrors. Wieters hasn't had a full healthy season since 2013, had Tommy John surgery and is lucky to OPS .775 in his best years. Schoop and Machado are the only guys on the upswing of their careers. The rest are at their peak or headed downhill. There's more questions than answers on this team as constructed. You can argue that the Royals had poor starting pitching but their bullpen was better, their team defense is better and their speed is better. They do all the little things correctly that the Orioles don't do. What does this team do exceptionally well? Defense is pretty solid in some spots but suspect in others. Jones' defense is on the decline and who's playing LF and RF? Assuming Davis goes, who's playing good defense at first and replacing 40-50 homers? Wieters isn't the defender he used to be. Hardy's losing range and is fragile. Who's the OBP machine? Is the situational hitting getting drastically better? Where's the team speed? How does this team score one run when they need it the most and they can't rely on homers? This team didn't score at all last year unless they were hitting homers. Fun to watch when it happens but it's a surefire way to go into prolonged slumps which is exactly what happened to this team last summer. Do you remember the long stretches where this team couldn't buy a run? At least the winter meetings are ahead and moves can be made but based off the last offseason I'm not getting my hopes up. I think we got lucky the year before when Cruz and Ubaldo fell in our laps. Anyway, if my assessment is nonsensical and we're close to winning 96 games I'd love to hear the reasoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjfootballer Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 I do agree with Spiff on his last post (to a point). Machado and Schoop should stay. But the one other guy I sound not trade at this time is Jones. He's too valuable right now because we lack corner outfielders. If we were solid on the corners, it found at least garner a discussion. But he's our best OFer right now and you don't trade him. Wish I could find my old post when we resigned Hardy. I was not in favor of it if I remember. Should have said thanks, moved Manny to SS and found a 3Bman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 This team as currently constructed had to sweep the Yankees on the final weekend to finish 81-81. If you can explain to me how that makes them close to winning 96 games, I'd love to hear it. Chances are the starting pitching will bounce back based on what? Losing Chen is a great way to start there. Who are you going to bet on having a great year? Ubaldo? Bundy? Gausman is the only guy that hasn't reached his ceiling yet aside from Bundy. IIRC according to Bundy's contract he HAS to be on the ML squad this year or else they can lose him like he's a Rule 5 guy, he'll be out on waivers. So what are you going to do with a former stud prospect who hasn't been healthy? Hand him a starting rotation spot or put him in the bullpen and hope for the best? Hardy? 33 years old. Jones? Declining OPS 4 years in a row, hasn't been over .800 since 2013. Tillman and Gonzo get by on smoke an d mirrors. Wieters hasn't had a full healthy season since 2013, had Tommy John surgery and is lucky to OPS .775 in his best years. Schoop and Machado are the only guys on the upswing of their careers. The rest are at their peak or headed downhill. There's more questions than answers on this team as constructed. You can argue that the Royals had poor starting pitching but their bullpen was better, their team defense is better and their speed is better. They do all the little things correctly that the Orioles don't do. What does this team do exceptionally well? Defense is pretty solid in some spots but suspect in others. Jones' defense is on the decline and who's playing LF and RF? Assuming Davis goes, who's playing good defense at first and replacing 40-50 homers? Wieters isn't the defender he used to be. Hardy's losing range and is fragile. Who's the OBP machine? Is the situational hitting getting drastically better? Where's the team speed? How does this team score one run when they need it the most and they can't rely on homers? This team didn't score at all last year unless they were hitting homers. Fun to watch when it happens but it's a surefire way to go into prolonged slumps which is exactly what happened to this team last summer. Do you remember the long stretches where this team couldn't buy a run? At least the winter meetings are ahead and moves can be made but based off the last offseason I'm not getting my hopes up. I think we got lucky the year before when Cruz and Ubaldo fell in our laps. Anyway, if my assessment is nonsensical and we're close to winning 96 games I'd love to hear the reasoning. Starting pitching: Tillman and Gonzo have good multi-year track records of pitching well and both had a off year with spurts of great pitching. They were both also injured this year. That's one place to start. Gausman continued to improve as the season went along and it's not unreasonable to think he will continue that progress this year. Bullpen: 5th best in the MLB and you want to trade a very affordable dominant closer? Hitting: Wieters, Jones, Schoop and Hardy all missed considerable time last year and the offense, though inconsistent at times, still put up a ton of runs. Hardy doesn't need to hit 20 homeruns to have better offense than last year. Wieters is bring his 20 homeruns back. If the O's resign Davis, with the addition of Trumbo, who mashes the ball (and easily replaces 30-35 HRs if Davis leaves), the lineup will already be deeper than last year. Defense: Not really sure how KC has a better defense than the O's and that you only consider it solid? Second fewest errors in the game with Schoop, Jones, Wieters and Hardy all missing considerable time. Managing: Buck is second to none. Winning: O's have been .500 or better 4 straight years making the playoffs every other year. Division: Sox will be better, Jays lose Price which is huge, Yanks hitters are likely to not duplicate their performance and they have added no one. Incomplete roster: You are already judging a team without knowing all the moves the O's will make. Lastly, the O's already showed they don't need speed like the Royals to win 96 games...like they did two seasons ago. So basically the O's had a bunch of injuries and three of the starters had uncharacteristically bad seasons (no one predicted Bud Norris would completely self destruct). Lastly, one more time. What message would the team be sending to Manny Machado if it traded everyone away? Might as well trade him too cause I'm sure he doesn't want to go through a rebuilding phase that might last years. It's tough to rebuild and it takes luck and a long time. The time to win is now. No reason not to go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjfootballer Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 Do you guys think Dariel Alvarez is ready too take over a corner OF spot this year or will he be a bench player? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rictus58 Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 Do you guys think Dariel Alvarez is ready too take over a corner OF spot this year or will he be a bench player? i don't think he's going to get a legit shot. He put up good numbers in spring training last year, and was still passed over for: Snider Lough De Aza Parmalee And probably a few others i have forgotten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDoyler23 Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 Every day Davis doesn't get linked to another team is a day closer to re-signing. Time for Boras to start conjuring mystery teams and/or begging the Yankees to get involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 Do you guys think Dariel Alvarez is ready too take over a corner OF spot this year or will he be a bench player? There is no reason not to give him a shot or at least platoon him. Gotta figure the O's will have one inexpensive outfielder this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 Starting pitching: Tillman and Gonzo have good multi-year track records of pitching well and both had a off year with spurts of great pitching. They were both also injured this year. That's one place to start. Gausman continued to improve as the season went along and it's not unreasonable to think he will continue that progress this year. Bullpen: 5th best in the MLB and you want to trade a very affordable dominant closer? Hitting: Wieters, Jones, Schoop and Hardy all missed considerable time last year and the offense, though inconsistent at times, still put up a ton of runs. Hardy doesn't need to hit 20 homeruns to have better offense than last year. Wieters is bring his 20 homeruns back. If the O's resign Davis, with the addition of Trumbo, who mashes the ball (and easily replaces 30-35 HRs if Davis leaves), the lineup will already be deeper than last year. Defense: Not really sure how KC has a better defense than the O's and that you only consider it solid? Second fewest errors in the game with Schoop, Jones, Wieters and Hardy all missing considerable time. Managing: Buck is second to none. Winning: O's have been .500 or better 4 straight years making the playoffs every other year. Division: Sox will be better, Jays lose Price which is huge, Yanks hitters are likely to not duplicate their performance and they have added no one. Incomplete roster: You are already judging a team without knowing all the moves the O's will make. Lastly, the O's already showed they don't need speed like the Royals to win 96 games...like they did two seasons ago. So basically the O's had a bunch of injuries and three of the starters had uncharacteristically bad seasons (no one predicted Bud Norris would completely self destruct). Lastly, one more time. What message would the team be sending to Manny Machado if it traded everyone away? Might as well trade him too cause I'm sure he doesn't want to go through a rebuilding phase that might last years. It's tough to rebuild and it takes luck and a long time. The time to win is now. No reason not to go for it. Tillman and Gonzo have good multi year records but these two need to have everything going their way to be successful. Gausman should be better, but even then these guys aren't amazing. Bullpen: Yep, I want to trade everyone not named Schoop and Machado. I think Schoop will be an absolute stud, no one hits harder line drives on this club. Davis may hit longer and deeper flyballs but everything that Schoop hits is on a line. Offense: You assume a lot that Hardy will be 100% all year and Wieters will be back to form. Based off the previous two years you can't really assume that these guys are good bets to stay healthy and produce. Defense: KC's outfield defense is better in particular. Aside from Jones I don't believe ours is as good. I'd take Cain's defense over Jones in CF, I'd take Alex Gordon out of anyone we trotted out to LF. The KC RF escapes me right now but we put some terrible guys out there last season. Infield, our defense should be pretty good, especially on the left side even with Hardy losing a step. 1B remains to be seen. Trumbo should not even bring a glove to camp. When talking about defense, it's not just about the errors, it's the amount of ground covered and balls that they can get to. Offense: Inconsistency is what sank this team, IMO. They finished 7th in the league in runs and behind three of the teams in the AL East (yes, Boston scored more runs). You keep hyping this team that won 96 games a year ago which is fine but that team had Nelson Cruz hitting 40 homers and Steve Pearce coming out of nowhere to hit 21. A lot of things went REALLY well for that team, that year, a few guys having career years and Cruz carrying the offense for stretches at a time. Trumbo doesn't come close to replacing Davis or Cruz, although it'll be good for him to get out of Seattle and that park. You're absolutely right that the roster isn't complete yet but who are you REALLY expecting to come along and make the impact that Cruz did the year we won 96 games? We'll be lucky to resign Davis. What type of message would it send? I think Manny is a pretty smart dude, he'd probably understand it if we were to trade guys away and get hauls similar to what we got for Bedard and Tejada. We might suck for a year or two but cheap, young, controllable talent like Manny is what this team needs, it's how it'll excel. As it stands there's a few things to like with this team as constructed but there's absolutely NOTHING in the farm system. What's your plan after Hardy, Jones, Wieters all get old? There's no future plan here, there's no young stud prospects waiting in the wings to take a veterans place or claim a corner outfield spot. All of our "stud" pitching prospects are always hurt. You wouldn't trade Jones right now to a contender to pick up a Syndergaard type prospect with a few other pieces? Look at your rotation then if you had Gausman and someone like Syndergaard with Gonzo and Tillman. Tillman and Gonzo are #3's and you're hoping Gausman and your Syndergaard type are 1 and 2. Plus that pitcher you just traded for is dirt cheap, has a ton of upside and Jones' salary isn't on the books (or much of it anyway). Yep, I'd trade everyone and get younger, cheaper and with more upside. I'd stock our farm system so deep with prospects from other systems because Lord knows we can't draft and develop our own. Tell me, who's situation do you like better? Ours or Houstons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Tillman and Gonzo have good multi year records but these two need to have everything going their way to be successful. Gausman should be better, but even then these guys aren't amazing. Bullpen: Yep, I want to trade everyone not named Schoop and Machado. I think Schoop will be an absolute stud, no one hits harder line drives on this club. Davis may hit longer and deeper flyballs but everything that Schoop hits is on a line. Offense: You assume a lot that Hardy will be 100% all year and Wieters will be back to form. Based off the previous two years you can't really assume that these guys are good bets to stay healthy and produce. Defense: KC's outfield defense is better in particular. Aside from Jones I don't believe ours is as good. I'd take Cain's defense over Jones in CF, I'd take Alex Gordon out of anyone we trotted out to LF. The KC RF escapes me right now but we put some terrible guys out there last season. Infield, our defense should be pretty good, especially on the left side even with Hardy losing a step. 1B remains to be seen. Trumbo should not even bring a glove to camp. When talking about defense, it's not just about the errors, it's the amount of ground covered and balls that they can get to. Offense: Inconsistency is what sank this team, IMO. They finished 7th in the league in runs and behind three of the teams in the AL East (yes, Boston scored more runs). You keep hyping this team that won 96 games a year ago which is fine but that team had Nelson Cruz hitting 40 homers and Steve Pearce coming out of nowhere to hit 21. A lot of things went REALLY well for that team, that year, a few guys having career years and Cruz carrying the offense for stretches at a time. Trumbo doesn't come close to replacing Davis or Cruz, although it'll be good for him to get out of Seattle and that park. You're absolutely right that the roster isn't complete yet but who are you REALLY expecting to come along and make the impact that Cruz did the year we won 96 games? We'll be lucky to resign Davis. What type of message would it send? I think Manny is a pretty smart dude, he'd probably understand it if we were to trade guys away and get hauls similar to what we got for Bedard and Tejada. We might suck for a year or two but cheap, young, controllable talent like Manny is what this team needs, it's how it'll excel. As it stands there's a few things to like with this team as constructed but there's absolutely NOTHING in the farm system. What's your plan after Hardy, Jones, Wieters all get old? There's no future plan here, there's no young stud prospects waiting in the wings to take a veterans place or claim a corner outfield spot. All of our "stud" pitching prospects are always hurt. You wouldn't trade Jones right now to a contender to pick up a Syndergaard type prospect with a few other pieces? Look at your rotation then if you had Gausman and someone like Syndergaard with Gonzo and Tillman. Tillman and Gonzo are #3's and you're hoping Gausman and your Syndergaard type are 1 and 2. Plus that pitcher you just traded for is dirt cheap, has a ton of upside and Jones' salary isn't on the books (or much of it anyway). Yep, I'd trade everyone and get younger, cheaper and with more upside. I'd stock our farm system so deep with prospects from other systems because Lord knows we can't draft and develop our own. Tell me, who's situation do you like better? Ours or Houstons? Damn, I lost everything I had typed up. You show massive bias in your posts to attempt to justify your position. Lot's of factually incorrect things. Players developed: Britton, Machado, Givens, Wieters, Schoop (international signing), Gausman, Gonzo (signing with no MLB experience), Joseph. Of course complaining about drafting intentionally leaves out the O's actually developing Jones and Tillman since they were via trade but had done nothing prior to the trade. Garcia showed as a rule 5 guy that he has some good stuff and pitched well in the 2nd half of the season. I'm not really sure how many players you think get developed by teams that win WS, but it's often not many without major supplementing of FAs. If Tillman or Gausman starts opening day, you'd have at least 5 of the 9 starters as homegrown/developed, at least half the bullpen that would likely be used in a win. "Absolutely NOTHING in the farm:" Schoop was never rated as one of the O's top prospects so I'm sure you thought the same thing when he was in the minors. Anyway: Mancini, Jomar Reyes (18-SS/3B), Ryan Mountcastle (18-SS/3B), Chance Sisco is maybe 20?, Chris Lee (100 MPH), Tiggs (older pitching prospect for the bullpen) and I won't even bring up Hunter Harvey and Bundy until they show they are healthy. "Trumbo won't replace Cruz or Davis." Experts like Harold Reynolds think Trumbo has 40 home run potential with the O's and the O's had more HRs last season than with Cruz. Plus, that is assuming that Davis isn't resigned or that the O's don't add another offensive bat. Bullpen: The O's have a top 5 bullpen and still a lot of youth in the pen aside from O'Day. Everyone else is under control for at least a couple more years and considering the cost of FAs, they are relatively cheap. Starters: We will see who the O's add, but, again, track records of Tillman and Gonzo suggest bounce back seasons and Gausman continues to improve. He has great potential. Defense: Not even sure why you would speak negatively at all about the D. They cover ground and have gold gloves all around this team. Corner outfielders weren't great but that hasn't been the norm. Lastly, so you want Machado to go through 2 terrible team seasons thinking he will be fine with being in last place and you hope that he will resign if a bunch of prospects develop? To go even deeper, you complain about the Orioles not developing players but now you think that they will magically develop a stable full of young players in a year or two? The O's aren't going to get a bunch of ready to play in the majors prospects trading all these players so you will be hoping guys develop in the majors. Houston has had one decent WC season and that's it. The O's have been in the playoffs 2 of the last 4 years with no losing seasons. Give me Buck and the O's all day long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjfootballer Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 So, is O'Day officially signed or is it still in limbo? I keep seeing conflicting reports that he has not agreed to terms or signed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rictus58 Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 So, is O'Day officially signed or is it still in limbo? I keep seeing conflicting reports that he has not agreed to terms or signed. signed pending physical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattFancy Posted December 8, 2015 Author Share Posted December 8, 2015 So we're looking at Alvarez, Lind, and Moreland as Davis replacements. Why does this team only look for guys that either HR or K? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rictus58 Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 I wonder if the fact Davis hasn't signed anywhere yet is a good sign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattFancy Posted December 8, 2015 Author Share Posted December 8, 2015 I think it has to help the O's. I wonder if we don't get him, if that money will go elsewhere or if we'll just bargain bin shop again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rictus58 Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 I think it has to help the O's. I wonder if we don't get him, if that money will go elsewhere or if we'll just bargain bin shop again assuming he signs for $20-$25mil annually somewhere else. I'd much rather use that money on 2 or 3 other guys who could contribute Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonArtest15 Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 What do you guys think of the rumors surrounding Pedro Alvarez? No, he's not as good as Davis, but he's got legit pop in his bat. IF we can nab him for less (and let Davis walk), we could use some of that freed $ to address other needs *cough* corner OF *cough* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattFancy Posted December 8, 2015 Author Share Posted December 8, 2015 I don't know if I trust them to use the "freed" money if they don't re-sign Davis. I thought the same would happen last year when we let Miller, Cruz, and Markakis walk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 I'm not sold on Pedro Alvarez but I guess it could be worse if he is the full time DH with Trumbo at first full time. Maybe have a defensive replacement late innings. That would certainly more than replace the total production of Davis. I feel like I would be ok with Pedro and a guy like Spann if no Davis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDoyler23 Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 I wonder if the fact Davis hasn't signed anywhere yet is a good sign. I take it as as yes that it is a good sign. Boras declares him worth 200 million and nobody is even close to that. As the price goes down some other teams may jump in. And I think there is lots of posturing going on with the O's as well. They're looking into Lind, Moreland, Alvarez, etc perhaps as backups or to push Davis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abdcskins Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 $150 million for 7 years seems like a hell of a lot for a guy who goes on horrific slumps. But you know what, Chris Davis has been so important to this team I'm not upset if we give him that. The worry, of course, is that he falls off big time, which is more than possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattFancy Posted December 9, 2015 Author Share Posted December 9, 2015 Saw we were talking to Justin Upton's agent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonArtest15 Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Saw we were talking to Justin Upton's agent Money on the table for Davis...essentially calling his bluff. Take it or leave it because Upton would be a MAJOR upgrade for this team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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