You are what you draft (if you draft, which we don't)

[Birdlives]

Not to jump off topic, but its interesting to me that Shanny was the one who wanted the 34, and supposedly Haslett thought we'd do well in a 43, but now that Shanny is gone, we didn't switch back. Could've been done too.

 

Let Orakpo walk and still sign Hatcher. You'd have Kerrigan, Hatcher, Cofield on DL with Riley, Robinson at LB. That's 5 of 7 positions filled with reasonably good talent.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Not to jump off topic, but its interesting to me that Shanny was the one who wanted the 34, and supposedly Haslett thought we'd do well in a 43, but now that Shanny is gone, we didn't switch back. Could've been done too.

 

Let Orakpo walk and still sign Hatcher. You'd have Kerrigan, Hatcher, Cofield on DL with Riley, Robinson at LB. That's 5 of 7 positions filled with reasonably good talent.

 

I'm not convinced that this 4-3/3-4 argument matters much any longer.

 

It seems like everyone uses muliple fronts and plays nickel on second down. It's not 1995 any longer.

 

Like seriously...does your base defense matter when a team comes out 4 wide in a pistol look on first down these days?

[DCranon21]

Base defense doesn't matter anymore, because teams wind up in the nickel after 2nd and long or 3rd and whatever.

 

But back on topic, I take a look at what Seattle did since the hire of Carrol and actually build that team through the draft. Basically that whole team is the drafted and a couple of free agency vets and trades. Damn i envy their draft board.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Yea....that was a weird era. Especially when compared to now when every team seems to have one if not two stud receivers. We were convinced Terry Glenn was good for half a decade for some reason.

 

That entire era was, especially for this team.

 

It drives me nuts, but if the ownership situation is not in flux during the winter of 1999, the Redskins are in much much better position to compete the rest of the decade.

 

A 28 year old franchise QB who clicked with his HC and tons of young talent being infused over the next 2 drafts with all the picks that would be there in 1999 and 2000

[skinsmarydu]

I laughed so hard at the title of your thread that I lost my breath. Hubby(who knows I'm always on ES)was like, "Damn, you ok? You're not chokin'?" but I couldn't answer, so he came flyin into my shemancave...that was funny.

[SkinsFTW]

 

Bruce is on a very short leash with me.

 

It's not like you couldn't predict this by his Tampa experience but then we'd have had to look at Hasletts previous decade as well as Shanahans too.

Base defense doesn't matter anymore, because teams wind up in the nickel after 2nd and long or 3rd and whatever.

 

 

But when Riley is a nickle LB then you've just admitted to the Lobotomy.

[DCranon21]

Riley should never be in a nickel situation...every

[SkinInsite]

Base defense doesn't matter anymore, because teams wind up in the nickel after 2nd and long or 3rd and whatever.

 

But back on topic, I take a look at what Seattle did since the hire of Carrol and actually build that team through the draft. Basically that whole team is the drafted and a couple of free agency vets and trades. Damn i envy their draft board.

 

They hit on some late round picks, other than Thomas their secondary is all from the 5th round. I mean they completed whiffed on the 4th pick on Curry and still is the #1 D in the league.

[SkinInsite]

Oh Skins manage to draft Gnomes ahead of Sherman.

[GoSkins0721]

It's hard for me to believe it has not been possible to have 1 segment of the game be the best in the league in the past 20+ years. It's a constant "add a guy on the DL that will make them average" or "add a LG that will make them average". Then someone goes down & it's a **** sandwich on the field. 

 

I'd like to see how many teams sign guys they drafted to 2nd contracts & see how those guys did. Like JJ Watt who just signed his 2nd contract. The Skins seem to live on this & get these guys AFTER they've worked to be where they are. Then the guys get nicked up, can't play every game at full strength & it's a huge waste of cap space. Or they just play average because they got their cash.

 

It's just ****ing sad. It's one steaming pile of **** after another. All facets of the game seem to always be at the bottom of the cesspool swimming with the turds.

 

As I said in another thread, I'm just glad I got rid of my season tickets 5-6 years back. I can at least turn off the TV or decide not to watch. I'd be close to beating my dog if I had to eat 2 game tickets each home game because I couldn't find another sad sack go with me to watch another Skins beat down. At least I got that going for me...

[RemoveSnyder]

It's pretty obvious that you need a landslide of picks and an influx of talent all at once or within a few years time in order to make a championship team. 

 

It has to be a bulk deal. It hardly ever comes piecemeal.

 

Thinking directly of Jimmy Johnson. 

Or better yet, the massive moves the seattle GM undertook in a two-to-three year span.

 

Not every move is gold, not every selection is right, it just has to be an influx of players where entire units are formed or overhauled and you group guys together like recruiting classes. Except, you are using different methods to get your classes of players together, which includes using free agency, draft and trades, instead of recruiting.

 

But it has to be bulk moves. 

 

[daveakl]

22 million spent on Jax and Orakpo.

22 million could have been used on a RT, CB, S

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

It's pretty obvious that you need a landslide of picks and an influx of talent all at once or within a few years time in order to make a championship team. 

 

It has to be a bulk deal. It hardly ever comes piecemeal.

 

 

That's actually not true.

 

I broke down how the Steelers won the '05 and '08 Super Bowls and went to the '10 Super Bowl. It was by getting two or three good players a year for a decade.

 

I will quote myself:

 

To follow up on my point about the Steelers. They built their great team of the 2000s, starting in '98. And they only got a few dudes each year. But they kept getting dudes year after year. Dude.

 

98 - Faneca, Ward, Townsend. That's two potential hall of famers and a starting CB. That's a good draft.

99 - Porter, Smith. Just two guys. But All Pro level defenders.

00 - Burress, Smith, Haagans. A headcase starter, a long term LT, and a starter. Three dudes.

01 - Hampton, Bell - The best NT in football for about a decade and a flameout rookie of the year. Whom they dumped. Really just one dude.

02 - This draft was loaded. Keisel was the 7th rounder and that dude is STILL starting. Simmons started for years. Randle El. Hope. Foote. I think Haynes got a super bowl ring. Maybe not.

03 - Polamalu and Taylor. Just two guys. But both were starters in 2014.

04 - Roehtlisberger and Starks. Just two guys. But one is Big Ben and the other started for years.

05 - They got 4 starters out of this draft.

06 - San Antonio Holmes was here. But this draft is the start of things starting to go South.

07 - 4 Starters here.

08 - This draft sucked.

09 - Aside from Wallace this draft sucked too.

 

That's why things went south after the Super Bowl. 3 out 4 bad drafts with no dudes

 

But seriosuly, the Steelers run to three Super Bowls began with a guard, a converted QB as a WR, and a CB who took like six years to make the starting lineup.

 

And the next year, they got a linebacker and a converted defenisve tackle.

 

5 players in two drafts. Only one with a pedigree. And from that, three Super Bowl appearances.

[DiscoBob]

There are three distinct aspects of our drafting that have pissed me off over the past decade although I have not complained a ton because it just seems par for the course for the skins:

 

1) Trading away draft picks

 

2) Poor talent evaluation

 

3) Over drafting of skill positions

 

They all play off each other, but they have combined to form a pretty terrible draft history.

[Slateman]

22 million spent on Jax and Orakpo.

22 million could have been used on a RT, CB, S

Completely agree.

 

On  top of that, I agree with the OP. You are what you draft. And for the entire time the Redskins have been a 3-4 defense, they have ignored the MOST IMPORTANT position on that defense. The Nose Tackle.

 

Instead of drafting one (or two) we continue to try and plug guys in like Cofield, who  is acceptable at times, but not the run clogger we need, nor the pocket collapser.

 

Look at 3-4 teams last year and the year before that have good pass rush. Yes, they have good edge rushers, but they also have quality NTs. Chiefs took Poe in the first round of 2012. Last year, 6th in sacks. Bills were second, using a hybrid of the two. Marcell Dareu was a first rounder in 2011, and served as their NT. Arizona was also tied for sixth. They got a first rounder serving as NT.

 

2012 tells the same story. Packers were number 4. What do they have in the middle? BJ Raji. Ravens have been good for years in the 3-4. We all know who was starting at NT.

 

Who do the Redskins have? An undersized 4th rounder over 30 years old in Cofield and an undrafted free agent. We spent all that money on Orakpo, Hatcher, and DeAngello Hall. We've spent high draft picks on Orakpo, Kerrigan, Murphy, and Jenkins. We continue to ask why we can't get a reliable pass rush when the 3-4 is supposed to specialize in it. The Redskins have not invested in the most important position in that defense. Nose Tackle.

[RemoveSnyder]

That's actually not true.

...

 

98 - Faneca, Ward, Townsend. That's two potential hall of famers and a starting CB. That's a good draft.

99 - Porter, Smith. Just two guys. But All Pro level defenders.

00 - Burress, Smith, Haagans. A headcase starter, a long term LT, and a starter. Three dudes.

01 - Hampton, Bell - The best NT in football for about a decade and a flameout rookie of the year. Whom they dumped. Really just one dude.

02 - This draft was loaded. Keisel was the 7th rounder and that dude is STILL starting. Simmons started for years. Randle El. Hope. Foote. I think Haynes got a super bowl ring. Maybe not.

03 - Polamalu and Taylor. Just two guys. But both were starters in 2014.

04 - Roehtlisberger and Starks. Just two guys. But one is Big Ben and the other started for years.

05 - They got 4 starters out of this draft.

06 - San Antonio Holmes was here. But this draft is the start of things starting to go South.

07 - 4 Starters here.

08 - This draft sucked.

09 - Aside from Wallace this draft sucked too.

...

 

But seriosuly, the Steelers run to three Super Bowls began with a guard ...

 

Well, why not say their SuperBowl victory in 2005-06 started with the selection of Jerome Bettis in the 1993 draft? Why not list the endless number of draft selections and free agents who added incomparable spice to the melange of steeler lore between 1993 to 2006? 

 

A thirteen year build-up to ultimate climax. 

 

Their Superbowls started, in reality, with the selection of Polamalu & Roethisberger, 2003 & 2004 -- imo.

With the predominance of weighted importance at the QB spot. 

 

I mean, Ike Taylor has been a lock-down guy since he arrived, sans the broken arm last week. Can't discount his impact. Yet, more importantly, I know for a fact that Big Ben won the 2008-09 Superbowl by himself. That throw to the end zone for the toe-tap TD was just magic. Maybe you think the guy drafted ten years earlier, who made that one block out of five, on the play, or the guy who made that great tackle on 3rd down in the 2nd quarter was the real key to the victory, but I'd say the guy who threw the ball into a breadbasket from 20 yards away deserves the credit.

 

Didn't Ben also have that game saving tackle on a Bettis fumble in the 2005 march to the SuperBowl?

 

Those two guys were the biggest impact guys I could think of at two key positions, QB being the most key position. Polamalu, when he first arrived, was like a Rover SS version of equal impact and importance to Sean Taylor's ability, just amazing energy. That two year period of drafting turned dividends for 2006 and 2008.

 

That means from Ben's draft day, he was a SuperBowl champion Year 2, and again in Year 5. That's a quick turn around on investment. 

 

The fact that a baseline level of talent was already there for him to arrive to is probably what you are identifying. It seems you've identified that the steelers were good at retaining some talent and eventually had a landmark talent acquisition in a short period of time that transformed the rest of the aging players and units into top notch. 

 

I don't know quite exactly how to respond other than to say, yes, every team that has ever won a SuperBowl must have had some veterans on their squad who remained with the team for years and played as starters for the championship team.

 

I think you could do this with any team. Just make a list of starters from the championship team and see how far back it reaches. 

 

But to identify the true impact of the players of significance, is something different. I don't know if what you wrote actually diminishes what I wrote. I said that an influx of talent needs to occur at once OR within a few years of time.

 

You wrote above that 2005 produced 4 starters. Well, in a three year span, 2003, 2004, & 2005, they added what, like 8 (or more) starters? ... With key piece being the QB. That is probably what set the team up most notably for a championship in 05-06 and 08-09. 

 

You obviously can't add 22 new starters in one offseason, I didn't make that assertion.

 

But I'd venture a guess there are more examples of teams, like the redskins, throughout the ages, who got one guy a year from their premium selection ... example: Orakpo, or now, Trent ... who get drafted and play well, then age, but the team never gets enough critical mass of talent around them before the "talented" player gets too old, or injured, or beyond his hey-day, or simply averages out.

[PeterMP]

I mean, Ike Taylor has been a lock-down guy since he arrived, sans the broken arm last week. Can't discount his impact.

 

Taylor didn't even start his first two years.

[Bishop Hammer]

Drafting quality players is part of the solution. Being able to develop it is another story, altogether. That's another reason the Skins lack depth.

[SkinsFTW]

Drafting quality players is part of the solution. Being able to develop it is another story, altogether. That's another reason the Skins lack depth.

Redskins have to be the worst over the past decade at developing players.

If not for superior talents from the 1st round we have nothing.

 

Shanny had a couple low round RB's as he always does. Besides that NADA, ZILCH.

 

Best I can think of is how Robinson is doing right now and who else? No OL, no DL, no DB's, no WR's. I guess Riley might count too but I don't see us with the typical 5-6 starters that came from low rounds (4th or later) or FA on most other teams.

[Alexa]

The laziest game of NFL fandom is going through your draft history and saying, "We should have picked THAT guy." I'm not doing that. I don't believe the draft is a crap shoot; some teams clearly do it better than others - at least in certain windows. But I don believe that the draft is a volume enterprise.

 

The draft is important not because it gives you talent, but because it gives you cheap talent that you control. In a capped league - with, frankly, a ridiculously low salary cap - the draft supplies the good teams with the young underpriced talent that provides depth. Depth the Redskins never have for reasons that will soon become clear.

 

I've never been a fan of DeAngelo Hall. And that may be in part becuse I've never really seen what we've had behind DeAngelo Hall. But all teams need to be prepared for the loss of at least one starter on offense and defense each year. And in this hyper-vigilant, litigious era of the NFL, you are going to lose players for games at a pretty good clip most of the time. Any kind of hard hit to the head is prpobably going to end a players' night in 2014. That was not the case even three years ago.

 

So....the game seems to be to give yourself lots of cheap options. And the best place to do that is the draft.

 

But the Skins - seemingly as a matter of strategy - have intentionally limited their options over the years.

 

In the last ten drafts, we have had:

 

7 picks in the first round

7 picks in the second round (three of those in one draft).

7 picks in the third round

7 picks in the fourth round

10 picks in the fifth round

 

 

In comparsion, in that same period, San Francisco has had

 

12 picks in the first round

7 picks in the second round

11 picks in the third round

10 picks in the fourth round

9 picks in the fifth round

 

It's not that the 49ers are necessarily great drafters. They've blown plenty of those picks. It's just that they give themselves a ton of chances to get it right. And, moreover, they are able to fill out their roster with young, cheap talent that is put in competitive situations.

 

Seriously, if you are a third round pick for the Skins, odds are that you are entering camp as the only young option at your position. And you should be a lock to play on special teams unless you develop a visible limp.

 

Want to know why are special teams have been a debacle for years? There's your answer. Want to know why any injury is cataclysmic? There's your answer. Want to know why Polumbus is locked in at right tackle? There is your answer.

 

Want to know why that cap penalty was a death blow? There is your answer. We pay a premium for lower-end talent. Take away the flexibility to do even that and the roster becames a total disaster. Other teams are paying mediocre guys on rookie deals to fill backup roles. We pay mediocre guys on their second contract.

 

And you can't point a finger anywhere. This has been an overall organizational philosophy since at least the beginning of the second Gibbs era. (Gibbs seemed really eager to get veterans off the free agency market since you knew so much about them as players. However, he never seemed to fully get his brain around the idea of the cap). Shanahan seemed to be taking baby steps away from this, but still made the RGIII trade. (And I'm not criticizing that trade. Just pointing out that we might have a decent backup cornerback without it).

 

By the way, I actually like our first round picks over the years. I may actually like them more than San Francisco's. Aldon Smith, Patrick Willis, and Vernon Davis are standouts, but I think if Trent Williams and Ryan Kerrigan played in San Francisco, they would be seen as absolute superstars too. But the 49ers are able to surround those centerpieces with a ton of options. We leave ours alone surrounded by wasteland.

Aldon Smith is head and shoulders better than Kerrigan. If Kerrigan played for SF I highly doubt he'd be a superstar.

[chipwhich]

Great thread.  The OP is 100% correct.  It's not the cap penalty that made us suck, it's the fact that we never draft the majority of our starters.

 

It would be interesting to know if any other team in the league had fewer home grown starters than we do.  I bet we are the worst in the league.

[ihateusernames]

22 million spent on Jax and Orakpo.

22 million could have been used on a RT, CB, S

Snyder can't market a team in the offseason by signing a new guard. It's got to be sexy. It's got to be a desean Jackson type. I remember when it happened, when the Redskins traded a very high draft pick for Donovan mcnabb, I was beside myself. I live in philly area. When that trade went down, I remember 94.1 (then 610 am) radio in Philly, literally laughing at the Redskins . They knew mcnnabb was done and yet they just got a 2nd round pick for him.

I wondered how the Redskins coulda been so stupid. They had Jason Campbell for one more year under contract, it was shanahans first year, wasn't going to win much anyway, take that year and play it with Campbell instead of flushing a 2nd round pick down the toilet.

Why I wondered...why... Then when I was down at redskins training camp and saw mcnabbs face everywhere, on busses and billboards with their MARKETING slogan attached , "R you in?" , that's when I had my answer.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Snyder can't market a team in the offseason by signing a new guard. It's got to be sexy. It's got to be a desean Jackson type. I remember when it happened, when the Redskins traded a very high draft pick for Donovan mcnabb, I was beside myself. I live in philly area. When that trade went down, I remember 94.1 (then 610 am) radio in Philly, literally laughing at the Redskins . They knew mcnnabb was done and yet they just got a 2nd round pick for him.

 

 

I had literally forgotten that McNabb was ever here.

 

Jesus, did that really happen?

[Aireskoi]

http://www.prosportstransactions.com/football/DraftTrades/Future/Redskins.htm

 

 

 

This is what I've been waiting for.  No cap penalty, all of our draft picks on the board.  

 

Now we can move forward and see if we've learned anything at all.

 

C'mon Bruce and Dan...It's time to lock and load.

 

[Fat Stupid Loser]

The laziest game of NFL fandom is going through your draft history and saying, "We should have picked THAT guy." I'm not doing that. I don't believe the draft is a crap shoot; some teams clearly do it better than others - at least in certain windows. But I don believe that the draft is a volume enterprise.

 

The draft is important not because it gives you talent, but because it gives you cheap talent that you control. In a capped league - with, frankly, a ridiculously low salary cap - the draft supplies the good teams with the young underpriced talent that provides depth. Depth the Redskins never have for reasons that will soon become clear.

 

I've never been a fan of DeAngelo Hall. And that may be in part becuse I've never really seen what we've had behind DeAngelo Hall. But all teams need to be prepared for the loss of at least one starter on offense and defense each year. And in this hyper-vigilant, litigious era of the NFL, you are going to lose players for games at a pretty good clip most of the time. Any kind of hard hit to the head is prpobably going to end a players' night in 2014. That was not the case even three years ago.

 

So....the game seems to be to give yourself lots of cheap options. And the best place to do that is the draft.

 

But the Skins - seemingly as a matter of strategy - have intentionally limited their options over the years.

 

In the last ten drafts, we have had:

 

7 picks in the first round

7 picks in the second round (three of those in one draft).

7 picks in the third round

7 picks in the fourth round

10 picks in the fifth round

 

 

In comparsion, in that same period, San Francisco has had

 

12 picks in the first round

7 picks in the second round

11 picks in the third round

10 picks in the fourth round

9 picks in the fifth round

 

It's not that the 49ers are necessarily great drafters. They've blown plenty of those picks. It's just that they give themselves a ton of chances to get it right. And, moreover, they are able to fill out their roster with young, cheap talent that is put in competitive situations.

 

Seriously, if you are a third round pick for the Skins, odds are that you are entering camp as the only young option at your position. And you should be a lock to play on special teams unless you develop a visible limp.

 

Want to know why are special teams have been a debacle for years? There's your answer. Want to know why any injury is cataclysmic? There's your answer. Want to know why Polumbus is locked in at right tackle? There is your answer.

 

Want to know why that cap penalty was a death blow? There is your answer. We pay a premium for lower-end talent. Take away the flexibility to do even that and the roster becames a total disaster. Other teams are paying mediocre guys on rookie deals to fill backup roles. We pay mediocre guys on their second contract.

 

And you can't point a finger anywhere. This has been an overall organizational philosophy since at least the beginning of the second Gibbs era. (Gibbs seemed really eager to get veterans off the free agency market since you knew so much about them as players. However, he never seemed to fully get his brain around the idea of the cap). Shanahan seemed to be taking baby steps away from this, but still made the RGIII trade. (And I'm not criticizing that trade. Just pointing out that we might have a decent backup cornerback without it).

 

By the way, I actually like our first round picks over the years. I may actually like them more than San Francisco's. Aldon Smith, Patrick Willis, and Vernon Davis are standouts, but I think if Trent Williams and Ryan Kerrigan played in San Francisco, they would be seen as absolute superstars too. But the 49ers are able to surround those centerpieces with a ton of options. We leave ours alone surrounded by wasteland.

So if we can see this, why can't the professionals running this franchise?