skinsfan212689 Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 You really don't see what LKB is getting at? I guess not... I just thought he had a different angle he'd like to share. Wasn't trying to be funny or anything! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 I guess not... I just thought he had a different angle he'd like to share. Wasn't trying to be funny or anything! The thought is that white QBs don't get their intellect questioned as much or as easily as black QBs do. The ability to "read" defenses ties into a QB's intellect/mental capacity to understand the game and what defenses are throwing at them and trying to confuse them with. I don't really think that's the case here, though (although I won't discount it playing a role in things altogether). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthsideDC Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 I'd like to know seriously because I actually posted a similar question in a different thread (since there are so many about this subject) I really would like to know why because I don't think Kirk reads defenses well. He all about getting the ball out fast by any means necessary. No matter who catches it he can at least say he get the ball out faster than RG3 which is ridiculous... Please enlighten me? Thanks in advance. The answer to that question is obvious and has some history behind it. I suggest you check out Warren Moon's episode of A Football life. They touch that subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsfan212689 Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 ^^ I was not thinking along those lines at all obviously silly me... Being that I'm African American (black) I'll back off that conversation and this thread all together! Thanks guys Hail! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RED06 Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 fixed that for you ... I guess you're too young to remember Joe when he was playing for us ... the man was born talking Man I remember when he played for us but didn't remember him talking that much. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rskins06 Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 The thought is that white QBs don't get their intellect questioned as much or as easily as black QBs do. The ability to "read" defenses ties into a QB's intellect/mental capacity to understand the game and what defenses are throwing at them and trying to confuse them with. I don't really think that's the case here, though (although I won't discount it playing a role in things altogether). What? Seriously, you think it may have something to do with skin color? Seriously? I could give you a list of QBs whos ability to read defenses and had nothing to do with skin color. Rick Mirer, Ryan Leaf, Cade McNown, etc, etc, etc. Not sure if I read that right, just not sure skin color should or does have ANY bearing on a QBs ability to read defenses. Donovan McNabb, Warren Moon, Randall Cunningham, Jason Campbell, Doug Williams, etc are all black and are all very good / great QBs. I may have misunderstood the statement, if so my apologies, that statement totally caught me off guard. I think the ability to read defenses has everything to do with the type of offense you have played in most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 What? Seriously, you think it may have something to do with skin color? Seriously? I could give you a list of QBs whos ability to read defenses and had nothing to do with skin color. Rick Mirer, Ryan Leaf, Cade McNown, etc, etc, etc. Not sure if I read that right, just not sure skin color should or does have ANY bearing on a QBs ability to read defenses. Donovan McNabb, Warren Moon, Randall Cunningham, Jason Campbell, Doug Williams, etc are all black and are all very good / great QBs. I may have misunderstood the statement, if so my apologies, that statement totally caught me off guard. I think the ability to read defenses has everything to do with the type of offense you have played in most. I don't think it is the posters you're responding to implying that they believe skin color has anything to do with the actual ability to read defenses or process information. I believe they're saying that, in general, there seems to historically be a stereotype for that which still may thrive in the collective subconscious of football analysis. I don't think it is that much of a stretch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rskins06 Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 I don't think it is the posters you're responding to implying that they believe skin color has anything to do with the actual ability to read defenses or process information. I believe they're saying that, in general, there seems to historically be a stereotype for that which still may thrive in the collective subconscious of football analysis. I don't think it is that much of a stretch. Ok, that makes more sense, I am a little slow sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grhqofb5 Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 I don't think it is the posters you're responding to implying that they believe skin color has anything to do with the actual ability to read defenses or process information. I believe they're saying that, in general, there seems to historically be a stereotype for that which still may thrive in the collective subconscious of football analysis. I don't think it is that much of a stretch. Yeeesh. Next thing you know they're going to allow Mexicans to coach. Seriously though, Tom Flores was a great coach. Wonder what he's doing now.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garcon More Wine Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 because he isnt a good quarterback. well that was easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rskins06 Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Yeeesh. Next thing you know they're going to allow Mexicans to coach. Seriously though, Tom Flores was a great coach. Wonder what he's doing now.... Wasn't Wayne Fontes Mexican? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asoccerplayer99 Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Peyton Manning threw (I think) 22 INTs in his first season, 16 games. That's a lot. So giving up on a guy because he throws a lot of INTs early is a mistake. But, honestly, Kirk isn't Peyton, and the leash will not be that long. Its not a mistake. It's playing the odds. Sometimes you will find a diamond in the rough, but usually you just find more rough. How many QBs threw 22 interceptions in their first season and then WEREN'T Peyton Manning should be a/the real measure of how long a leash KC should get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rskins06 Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Its interesting people keep bringing up INTs in a total year to use as a point of why KC isn't any good. Now I am sure these are all not in their 1st season, however, it just means every QB could have a bad year. Brett Favre - 29 and 23 in a season (couple 20 int years as well) Peyton Manning - 28 (1st year) and 23 in a season (won a SB) Eli - 27 / 25/ 20 (won 2 SBs) Sonny Jergenson - 26 / 24 HOF Warren Moon - 26 (great QB) HOF Jay Cutler - 26 Dan Marino - 23 (did this twice) (almost won, but great QB) HOF Drew Brees - 22 (won SB) Carson Palmer 22 / 20 (twice) Joe Flacco - 22 (won SB) All this does is clarify, just because a QB has a bad year(s), doesn't necessarily mean they will always be bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZRagone Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 "Gruden on Griffin III - "If he feels like he's healthy, then he's going to play." However, says he has to be "fully himself" #Redskins" There, now we can at least end that part of the discussion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rskins06 Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 "Gruden on Griffin III - "If he feels like he's healthy, then he's going to play." However, says he has to be "fully himself" #Redskins" There, now we can at least end that part of the discussion That is the right thing to do. We need to know if RG3 can be the guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Its interesting people keep bringing up INTs in a total year to use as a point of why KC isn't any good. Now I am sure these are all not in their 1st season, however, it just means every QB could have a bad year. Brett Favre - 29 and 23 in a season (couple 20 int years as well) Peyton Manning - 28 (1st year) and 23 in a season (won a SB) Eli - 27 / 25/ 20 (won 2 SBs) Sonny Jergenson - 26 / 24 HOF Warren Moon - 26 (great QB) HOF Jay Cutler - 26 Dan Marino - 23 (did this twice) (almost won, but great QB) HOF Drew Brees - 22 (won SB) Carson Palmer 22 / 20 (twice) Joe Flacco - 22 (won SB) All this does is clarify, just because a QB has a bad year(s), doesn't necessarily mean they will always be bad. That's true, however KC has, from my understanding, pretty much always had that same knock on him...that he will make some great plays but then overshadow them with horrible ones at really bad moments. He has historically had issues with turnovers, etc. If it was that way before the NFL and is that way still, I think he could learn to get a bit better but it is probably safe to assume he may well have some sort of turnover issues for the foreseeable future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice_of_Reason Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 To expand on the Grtuden quotes a little bit, he said basically that he has to be fully healthy, practice a few weeks, look good, and then he's going to be the starter. The interesting thing is that he said he had to practice well for a few weeks. So it looks like there is going to be some degree of patience in getting back. And i think Griffin will be ok with that. This time around. I think he was SO mad about the ACL (for legit and illegitimate reasons) that he rushed himself back and put the coaching staff in a bad spot. This time, it was a fluke injury, He's working to get back. When he's back, he's back. He also knows that Krik isn't taking his job any time soon, so whatever type of insecurity he had about that is all but gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMonkeyBoy Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Brett Favre - 29 and 23 in a season (couple 20 int years as well) Peyton Manning - 28 (1st year) and 23 in a season (won a SB) Eli - 27 / 25/ 20 (won 2 SBs) Sonny Jergenson - 26 / 24 HOF Warren Moon - 26 (great QB) HOF Jay Cutler - 26 Dan Marino - 23 (did this twice) (almost won, but great QB) HOF Drew Brees - 22 (won SB) Carson Palmer 22 / 20 (twice) Joe Flacco - 22 (won SB) All this does is clarify, just because a QB has a bad year(s), doesn't necessarily mean they will always be bad. This has been beaten into the ground over and over but all of those guys did that mostly in an NFL where passing the ball was markedly more difficult, it wasn't quite as bad for Brees, Eli and maybe Peyton but with all the rule changes favoring the offense high INT totals are a bigger red flag than ever. Also, 4th round picks don't get the same kind rope as high draft picks and nor should they. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice_of_Reason Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Its interesting people keep bringing up INTs in a total year to use as a point of why KC isn't any good. Now I am sure these are all not in their 1st season, however, it just means every QB could have a bad year. Brett Favre - 29 and 23 in a season (couple 20 int years as well) Peyton Manning - 28 (1st year) and 23 in a season (won a SB) Eli - 27 / 25/ 20 (won 2 SBs) Sonny Jergenson - 26 / 24 HOF Warren Moon - 26 (great QB) HOF Jay Cutler - 26 Dan Marino - 23 (did this twice) (almost won, but great QB) HOF Drew Brees - 22 (won SB) Carson Palmer 22 / 20 (twice) Joe Flacco - 22 (won SB) All this does is clarify, just because a QB has a bad year(s), doesn't necessarily mean they will always be bad. I have written posts like this for a while. There is a difference between a lot of those guys and Kirk though: They were all (or almost all) 1st (or in Brees' case top of the second) round picks. They started immediately in their rookie year, and most of them were on BAD teams when they started. Exceptions include Eli, who started on a bad team but rode the bench for a little while. Kirk is in a different position. He was picked later, doesn't have the raw athletic ability or upside as anybody on that list, and has had the opportunity to sit and not get thrown into the fire. In his defense, he has been on a BAD team. Kirk is more comparable to a whole slew of mid-round picks that got a chance, and some succeeded, and some didn't. I have no idea if Kirk will or won't, in the end, become a good NFL QB. But right now, he's not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asoccerplayer99 Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Again though, what's missing from that list of stats is all the quarterbacks who had severe INT problems in a season and then DIDNT go on to become a superbowl winning hall of fame quarterback. The list you provided is 10 people long and spans 53 years. So while nobody is questioning the possibility that a quarterback can have a horrible year and come back to be one of the all time greats, I'm questioning the overall probability of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rskins06 Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 This has been beaten into the ground over and over but all of those guys did that mostly in an NFL where passing the ball was markedly more difficult, it wasn't quite as bad for Brees, Eli and maybe Peyton but with all the rule changes favoring the offense high INT totals are a bigger red flag than ever. Also, 4th round picks don't get the same kind rope as high draft picks and nor should they. Eli threw 27 laast year so not sure if your statement about a time where passing the ball was more difficult applies. Not to mention, there are many QBs playing today who have more than 20 Ints in a year, just didn't want to write the entire list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZRagone Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 To expand on the Grtuden quotes a little bit, he said basically that he has to be fully healthy, practice a few weeks, look good, and then he's going to be the starter. The interesting thing is that he said he had to practice well for a few weeks. So it looks like there is going to be some degree of patience in getting back. And i think Griffin will be ok with that. This time around. I think he was SO mad about the ACL (for legit and illegitimate reasons) that he rushed himself back and put the coaching staff in a bad spot. This time, it was a fluke injury, He's working to get back. When he's back, he's back. He also knows that Krik isn't taking his job any time soon, so whatever type of insecurity he had about that is all but gone. Well mind you...he's already beginning to practice now. My sense from it is that as soon as he's spent a majority of a week to practicing fully for a game like a starter should that he'll start. Best case it's probably practicing most of next week fully and starting against the Cowboys. Worst case it's probably practicing fully the week after the bye and playing against the Bucs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexa Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 I think the organization needs to find out if Griffin is the guy, therefore he needs to get back on the field. I would like to see him play the final six games or so. I would also like to see Cousins play well in the next 3-4 weeks and cut down on the picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rskins06 Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Again though, what's missing from that list of stats is all the quarterbacks who had severe INT problems in a season and then DIDNT go on to become a superbowl winning hall of fame quarterback. The list you provided is 10 people long and spans 53 years. So while nobody is questioning the possibility that a quarterback can have a horrible year and come back to be one of the all time greats, I'm questioning the overall probability of it. Like I just replied, there are more than 10 on this list, there are a lot more on the list and more QBs who are currently starting. Plus, a couple had MULTIPLE seasons throwing 20 or more picks (QBs who are playing today). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rskins06 Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 I have written posts like this for a while. There is a difference between a lot of those guys and Kirk though: They were all (or almost all) 1st (or in Brees' case top of the second) round picks. They started immediately in their rookie year, and most of them were on BAD teams when they started. Exceptions include Eli, who started on a bad team but rode the bench for a little while. Kirk is in a different position. He was picked later, doesn't have the raw athletic ability or upside as anybody on that list, and has had the opportunity to sit and not get thrown into the fire. In his defense, he has been on a BAD team. Kirk is more comparable to a whole slew of mid-round picks that got a chance, and some succeeded, and some didn't. I have no idea if Kirk will or won't, in the end, become a good NFL QB. But right now, he's not. I would agree 100% with you. Wasn't putting numbers up to try and justify KC as the starting QB, I think (for now) that book is closed. It is time to see if RG3 can prove he is closer to the 2012 version of himself rather than the 2013 version of himself. We need to know if RG3 is the right guy to lead this team next year. Well mind you...he's already beginning to practice now. My sense from it is that as soon as he's spent a majority of a week to practicing fully for a game like a starter should that he'll start. Best case it's probably practicing most of next week fully and starting against the Cowboys. Worst case it's probably practicing fully the week after the bye and playing against the Bucs I think him playing the Bucs is more reasonable. He needs to get a few good weeks of practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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