Thoughts on Cousins and the next few weeks

[SkinsFTW]

Funny how quick we contradict ourselves isn't it .  Hell, RGIII didn't even get a pass for the Texans game lol..  Skins fans ain't loyal (Chris Brown Vocal)

 

Why would we start now?

 

I dont even remember Jurgensen/Kilmer but that went on for years.

 

1985 after 2 Super Bowl seasons and 1 playoff season how many Redskins fans wanted Theismann gone when LT took that decision away from Gibbs? I remember it was most everybody I knew. Dude was DONE and Schroeder stepped right in winning games. Then as soon as Theismann was gone there was talk of his supposed comeback that never happened.

 

1987 I'm sure everybody around back then remember how Schroeder lost his job to Williams, and how Williams was almost traded or cut midseason but then ended up winning us a Super Bowl.

 

1988 Doug Williams had just won a SB with the best quarter of play in Super Bowl History not even close either. 1988 started slow, then Williams had an Appendectomy. By the 4th game of the season Rypien was starting and lighting it up but despite Rypien throwing 12td-1int, Gibbs started shuffling the QB's and both of them bombed out the rest of the season and we finished 7-9. This went on through part of the 89 season.

 

By 1994-1995 we had another one just like this now with the major difference being both those QB's sucked. Shuler-Frerotte. And the comical part of it all was from 1995-1997 the 3rd stringer happened to be none other than Trent Green who nobody even considered putting in a game until they finally did and he lit it up like Joe Montana relative to what we had seen from our Franchise First Rounder Heath (I really wanted be a congressman) Shuler who not even Norv Turner could turn into a half way decent backup QB.

 

I'm sure everybody remembers Johnson/George, Ramsey/Brunell,Campbell/Collins, Grossman/Beck too. Haha, we can't not have a QB controversy.

[redskins55]

You could look at Seattle, I think RW plays great in that system.  The only difference I see is you have to respect RW ability to read the entire field and even when running, is always looking to throw the ball.  Sometimes, it seems when RGIII is outside of the pocket, he is not looking at throwing the ball.  I could be wrong, but that is what I see.

 

Yea.. maybe in 2013  but this year Griffin clearly was looking to pass more on the run. Infact, the play that he was injured on, he bought enough time to complete a strike to Jackson for the first down.  Wilson does not read defenses in that system. He has one maybe two reads if its not there he improvises. Wilson benefits from a system made for him and his strengths and a great defense and running game. Its a testament to Pete Carrol and Bevel the O.C. Its the reason they will win another title because they arnt trying to stick a square peg into a round hole.

[knighthonor]

This thread is full of emotion. I just want the see the look of the fans faces if we were to actually trade RGIII. "breaking news RGIII has been traded to such and such" . LOL Can you imagine how foolish we will be. We will be the laughing stock of the NFL once again. You think those other fans actually are telling you RGIII is a Bum and Kirk is better because they like to see the Skins doing well lol. Oh wait...Let me guess you really think other team fans want to see our team with the best QB on the field? lol The day if it were to ever happend we trade RGIII watch how quickly the tide will turn. Other teams fans will say things like " How do you let a beast like RGIII go" "Redskins mess up everybody career, RGIII was sorry with y'all then he got traded now he's a beast again" lol We fall for the same crap every year smh

When the last time that happen to somebody that was a Redskins?

Just curious.

[darrelgreenie]

Aside from injury, which we all see as a risk, I see 3 core ideas/beliefs from some posters:

-belief that Griffin was a bad QB in 2013 therefore the team was bad (Griffin was average). They have a QB centric focus and severely underrate the abject disasters on special teams and defense which were the true culprits for 2013 record, along with coaching/discord.

-belief that Griffin's "poor play" was all his fault i.e. assign no blame to coaching/relationship

-have a style preference to how' the QB plays

These ideas lead to the belief that Cousins is better based on his 2 game sample size. (One must exclude Cousins 2013 b/c it was inferior to Griffin's)

[knighthonor]

Yea.. maybe in 2013  but this year Griffin clearly was looking to pass more on the run. Infact, the play that he was injured on, he bought enough time to complete a strike to Jackson for the first down.  Wilson does not read defenses in that system. He has one maybe two reads if its not there he improvises. Wilson benefits from a system made for him and his strengths and a great defense and running game. Its a testament to Pete Carrol and Bevel the O.C. Its the reason they will win another title because they arnt trying to stick a square peg into a round hole.

so why they do that, but not the redskins?

[UK Skins]

We're still talking about Griffin in this thread, huh? Lol, at least it's respectable now, though.

 

Certain people just won't let it go!

 

Anyway since DG keeps trying to keep the argument going I will bite. I definitely have a style preference as to how "my" QB plays. That's partly because running QBs generally don't do well in this League and partly because there's something heart-warming to me to see a Flacco stand in the pocket and throw a bomb down the sideline. I admit that I have won a lot of money from pocket QBs so I am probably biased!

 

Just like most Griffin fans though you try to allow special teams and defence to be the defence for Griffin but won't allow the same for Cousins. That is just hypocritical. I definitely agree that Cousins could have/should have won the Eagles game but it was special teams and defence that lost it. Anyway the whole team was bad in 2013 and that includes the QB.

 

Your second point is so emotive it's not worth discussing. I am sure you would say it was none of his fault, the Cousins fans will say it was all his fault, those in the middle will share the "blame".

[MartinC]

Well, what about Brett Favre and Aaron Rogers?  Oh wait, Brett didn't particularly like AR either:)

 

I defy you to find any example were a veteran QB is best buddies and putting an arm round the shoulders of a young QB drafted to replace him. That young guy is trying to take away his (very highly paid) job! Of course its normally kept civil but the idea of the willy vet mentoring the promising youngster is largely a myth. Thats why they employ QB coaches of course!

[RED06]

Certain people just won't let it go!

 

Anyway since DG keeps trying to keep the argument going I will bite. I definitely have a style preference as to how "my" QB plays. That's partly because running QBs generally don't do well in this League and partly because there's something heart-warming to me to see a Flacco stand in the pocket and throw a bomb down the sideline. I admit that I have won a lot of money from pocket QBs so I am probably biased!

 

Just like most Griffin fans though you try to allow special teams and defence to be the defence for Griffin but won't allow the same for Cousins. That is just hypocritical. I definitely agree that Cousins could have/should have won the Eagles game but it was special teams and defence that lost it. Anyway the whole team was bad in 2013 and that includes the QB.

 

Your second point is so emotive it's not worth discussing. I am sure you would say it was none of his fault, the Cousins fans will say it was all his fault, those in the middle will share the "blame".

If the truth is ever told special teams gave up the TD Sunday in the first qtr. I didn't cause us to lose the game. The score was 7-7 at that point. The difference last year was special teams blunders caused a deficit that we had to come back from. Coupled with the defense giving up score after score on top of the deficit, the offense could never be successful playing from behind. The defense could never stop anyone to make coming back possible.

 

Sunday was a bit different to a degree. The defense did Sunday what they rarely, if at all did in 2013. Got a much needed stop at the most crucial time of the game to give the ball back our offense with a chance to win.

 

Is this placing ALL the blame on Kirk? No. It's pointing out the difference in 2013 and 2014. Let's not forget after the special teams mistake Sunday, we still went up 17-7 and our offense pretty much stalled after the Eagles started to make defensive adjustments.

 

Our offense production went down qtr to qtr Sunday after half time. The difference last year was the offense production went up qtr to qtr. But, the offense in 2013 was pretty bad in the 1st half of games last year. So they had to ramp it up in the 2nd half.

 

The defense NEVER played a game like they did against the Jags (2014) in 2013. That makes it relatively easy on a QB when a defense totally shut down the opposing team offense. (see Trent Dilfer and the 2000 Baltimore Ravens). That's why I'm in the wait and see mode with Kirk. NOT because I don't like him and don't want him to win just to say "see Griffin is better"! That would be childish and silly on my part!

 

The red flag that went up for me was the defense dominated against the Jags. Kirk managed the game beautifully and we got a blow out win. Kirk played lights out against the Eagles. But, the defense wasn't quite as dominate in that game and Kirk needed to step up and show why he deserved to be the un-questioned starter and he didn't.

 

Will he do it? I don't know. I certainly hope so because again, I like winning regardless who the QB is. Last year (2013) is not comparable at all to how the team is playing this year so far. We have better WR, defense, and special teams. Although special teams still need work, they're a lot better than they where last year.

 

***But you better believe that D coordinators took note Sunday**** There wasn't much tape on Cousins. I want to see how he does when teams have dominate defenses, sat on those quick routes, taking away the quick outs and short patterns and the oline with Polumbus has to block for more than 2 sec with a pass rush in his face.That will tell you a lot.

[UK Skins]

Unusually for us Red I agree with everything you said! Except for the pass you are giving Special Teams. The TD in the scheme of things didn't cause us to lose the game but the change of momentum was huge. It certainly sucked the wind out of my sails and I was only watching on the laptop! But the missed field-goal was massive. That would have put us up by three, with ten minutes to play, and on the road that's a huge differential. It changes how the defence plays and also, I would imagine, changes our offensive play-calling.

 

Until we fix our special team deficiencies we can't go into any game expecting to win. Whoever is at QB.

[RED06]

Unusually for us Red I agree with everything you said! Except for the pass you are giving Special Teams. The TD in the scheme of things didn't cause us to lose the game but the change of momentum was huge. It certainly sucked the wind out of my sails and I was only watching on the laptop! But the missed field-goal was massive. That would have put us up by three, with ten minutes to play, and on the road that's a huge differential. It changes how the defence plays and also, I would imagine, changes our offensive play-calling.

 

Until we fix our special team deficiencies we can't go into any game expecting to win. Whoever is at QB.

Don't get me wrong, you and I definitely agree on everything. I'm NOT in no way giving special teams a pass. They had a strong hand in the loss Sunday for sure. And it needs to be fixed. And I agree if it's not, then who's QBing doesn't matter much.

 

I will probably get flamed for this but, I actually wanted Forbath cut for the younger kicker. He had a much stronger leg to me. I KNEW and called that miss by Forbath Sunday. 

[UK Skins]

:-)

 

I'm still pondering over Forbath, but I got sick and tired of hearing the commentators say "of course he is kicking with a groin injury" every time he lined up to kick. It was a matter of time before he missed one. I don't know if it happened during the game but, if not it, is unacceptable that they didn't sign another kicker.

[RED06]

:-)

 

I'm still pondering over Forbath, but I got sick and tired of hearing the commentators say "of course he is kicking with a groin injury" every time he lined up to kick. It was a matter of time before he missed one. I don't know if it happened during the game but, if not it, is unacceptable that they didn't sign another kicker.

Agreed. The kicking well.......(the punter) is a huge improvement from last year. Forbath......not so much. I mean he's ok, I guess. I liked the other kicker better and felt they should've kept him. And Forbath choked in a moment that we needed him most too. LOL

[TD_washingtonredskins]

TD, great post.

I think the question is really about Griffin. If he's healthy, willing and able, he gives you a dimension cousins can't. So if you get into a late game situation where you need 40 yards and a score to win/tie, he forces the defense to play differently.

IF he's right. If he's not right, then s bets are off.

 

Right back at you...nice post. 

 

I don't fully believe that Griffin is all about being healthy. Without a doubt he is a better athlete than Cousins, but I'm not sure most of that athletic advantage translates well to football. If he turns the corner and happens to have a lane, THEN all bets are off. Otherwise, I am not so sure he's a great open-field runner who really changes the game significantly. 

 

Take his runs against Jacksonville as an example. He looked fine and got us a couple first downs, but he didn't really do anything other than get what was there. Sure, his speed turned what might have been 6-7 yards into 10-11 yards. But, is that marginal upgrade in that very specific department worth going through the learning process of a much more complicated skill set (playing from the pocket)? 

 

I would say, at this point, no. 

 

So, unless all of the traditional QB elements are equal, I don't think his athleticism really becomes a tie-breaker that I care too much about. I will fully admit that he could evolve into a comparable (or better) pocket passer than Cousins. I have no reason to believe any differently. But he's not there now and his x-factor isn't tipping the scales. 

[StephenDavis]

Right back at you...nice post. 

 

I don't fully believe that Griffin is all about being healthy. Without a doubt he is a better athlete than Cousins, but I'm not sure most of that athletic advantage translates well to football. If he turns the corner and happens to have a lane, THEN all bets are off. Otherwise, I am not so sure he's a great open-field runner who really changes the game significantly. 

 

Take his runs against Jacksonville as an example. He looked fine and got us a couple first downs, but he didn't really do anything other than get what was there. Sure, his speed turned what might have been 6-7 yards into 10-11 yards. But, is that marginal upgrade in that very specific department worth going through the learning process of a much more complicated skill set (playing from the pocket)? 

 

I would say, at this point, no. 

 

So, unless all of the traditional QB elements are equal, I don't think his athleticism really becomes a tie-breaker that I care too much about. I will fully admit that he could evolve into a comparable (or better) pocket passer than Cousins. I have no reason to believe any differently. But he's not there now and his x-factor isn't tipping the scales. 

Yep I think you hit the nail on the head. If he could just get a better feel for the pocket and learn to get the ball out a little quicker like Cousins he would be a great QB in this league. He can absolutely throw a rocket. Even after the second ACL injury he is still mobile enough to make defenses game plan for it. What he did against the Jags was good. Just take what the defense give you and then slide. If he doesn't start any more this year I don't think it will effect him negatively, it will probably be a positive to just learn this offense. Next season will most likely be an open competition if Cousins keeps playing well and improving. Either way one of these guys should be our franchise QB of the decade which is a good feeling. Especially once the rest of the team gets better then our QB won't have to carry the team on their back. That's why Wilson has been successful in Seattle. I always go back to him because I love the way he just manages the game. He's also starting to make big plays himself to win his team games like last week against the Broncos.

:-)

 

I'm still pondering over Forbath, but I got sick and tired of hearing the commentators say "of course he is kicking with a groin injury" every time he lined up to kick. It was a matter of time before he missed one. I don't know if it happened during the game but, if not it, is unacceptable that they didn't sign another kicker.

Not sure why we're talking about the kicking game in this thread but I'll respond. This is very frustrating. Kickers in Redskin uniforms just don't seem to get it done for one reason or another and then they leave and all of a sudden they're doing well for another team. "Suisham for the Steelers". Why can't we find a kicker who can put it through the back of the endzone??? 

[RawBBQSauce]

Not sure why we're talking about the kicking game in this thread but I'll respond. This is very frustrating. Kickers in Redskin uniforms just don't seem to get it done for one reason or another and then they leave and all of a sudden they're doing well for another team. "Suisham for the Steelers". Why can't we find a kicker who can put it through the back of the endzone??? 

 

It is incredibly frustrating.

[RandyHolt]

I have a little theory

 

That a DC prefers to game plan for a QB that rarely to never leaves the pocket.

 

While that more immobile QB may still shred the defense, all things equal, the DC wants the QB to be as static and thus predictable, to effectively build his game plan for.

 

Watching an RG3 buying time with his legs, every DC is quickly reminded that almost no DB can cover forever.

 

That is the one big difference in the QBs, in the great debate of 14.

 

This **** is bigger than a presidential election

[Brokenstriker]

Funny how quick we contradict ourselves isn't it .  Hell, RGIII didn't even get a pass for the Texans game lol..  Skins fans ain't loyal (Chris Brown Vocal)

this might be one of those times its worth paying attention to the details ...

 

"Skins fans" are loyal ... to the Redskins!  Being "loyal" to a particular player is a very very different thing.  Its so different it translates as being a fan of that specific player.  "Skins fans" want the Skins to succeed, to win games, to play impressively, to win championships, to dominate, to be a dynasty.  It also means that "Skins fans" want the players who are performing best now/most-recently to play so that the "Skins" have the best chance to realize these desires ... for the "Skins."

 

There is no contradiction.  There are different opinions about a purely subjective situation ... assessing who gives us a better chance to win ... but there is no contradiction.  The concept that a "Skins fan" MUST also be a RGIII fan doesn't hold water.

 

Wanting someone other than RGIII to play QB for the Redskins does not make someone a disloyal Redskins fan.  If you can't understand that ... well then ... you need more help than I can offer you

[UK Skins]

Wow, well said Broken striker. Sums up our little 50 page discussion to a tee

[Brokenstriker]

I have a little theory

 

That a DC prefers to game plan for a QB that rarely to never leaves the pocket.

 

While that more immobile QB may still shred the defense, all things equal, the DC wants the QB to be as static and thus predictable, to effectively build his game plan for.

 

Watching an RG3 buying time with his legs, every DC is quickly reminded that almost no DB can cover forever.

 

That is the one big difference in the QBs, in the great debate of 14.

 

This **** is bigger than a presidential election

interesting note ... I saw KCI buying time with his legs in the Eagles game .. not as often as RGIII does it but that's probably because he wasn't as stressed in the pocket and wasn't in need of buying time as often.

 

(before the hate rains down ... he wasn't as stressed ... I'm not saying its because he's a football god, or that it even had anything to do with him ... its just a fact in that particular game)

[dsciambi]

This thread is full of emotion. I just want the see the look of the fans faces if we were to actually trade RGIII. "breaking news RGIII has been traded to such and such" . LOL Can you imagine how foolish we will be. We will be the laughing stock of the NFL once again. You think those other fans actually are telling you RGIII is a Bum and Kirk is better because they like to see the Skins doing well lol. Oh wait...Let me guess you really think other team fans want to see our team with the best QB on the field? lol The day if it were to ever happend we trade RGIII watch how quickly the tide will turn. Other teams fans will say things like " How do you let a beast like RGIII go" "Redskins mess up everybody career, RGIII was sorry with y'all then he got traded now he's a beast again" lol We fall for the same crap every year smh 

 

I'm curious if you ever read what other fans say about our QB situation? Almost everything I read is that RG3 is a bust and Cousins should have been put in a long time ago.

 

It's pretty much across unanimous too. Now, obviously, they probably don't watch as much Redskins football as we do here. But the fact is, fans of other teams think RG3 is an injury waiting to happen. In fact, even in 2012, everyone was saying that they doubted RG3 would be in the league for 5 years due to the way he plays.

[Brokenstriker]

Wow, well said Broken striker. Sums up our little 50 page discussion to a tee

thanks man

[TheGoodBits]

I'm curious if you ever read what other fans say about our QB situation? Almost everything I read is that RG3 is a bust and Cousins should have been put in a long time ago.

 

 

 

I hung out on the Giants forum earlier this week and the consensus was that we'd be colossal idiots to give up on RG3 at this point, this early in his career. Opposing fans apparently aren't as short sighted as we are. They remember 2012.  

[RandyHolt]

interesting note ... I saw KCI buying time with his legs in the Eagles game .. not as often as RGIII does it but that's probably because he wasn't as stressed in the pocket and wasn't in need of buying time as often.

 

(before the hate rains down ... he wasn't as stressed ... I'm not saying its because he's a football god, or that it even had anything to do with him ... its just a fact in that particular game)

Cousins can move around. Heck I even saw Brady get up enough speed one time, to effectively slide. I don't doubt KC moved around last week, I have erased that game from my memory banks. Well, all except that DJax deep ball.

 

If the pocket collapses tonight, I want to see Gruden use Cousins legs if he is showing a happy arm, and rushing throws. Doing more than boots. Having a pocket two weeks in a row... I am not optimistic we make it 3 in a row. Prepare.

 

It seemed last week Cousins late was understandably nervous, or maybe thinking he was going to get crushed after that mind boggling non penalty hit on him, on a dead ball. Good lord.

 

While moving around a QB scares DCs and DBs, conversely I theorize it alleviates a bit of over thinking by QBs.

 

I want to see Gruden move the pocket a little, or call a sprint out, just to keep Ds honest vs our pocket. And maybe, Cousins cool calm and collected.

[StephenDavis]

I hung out on the Giants forum earlier this week and the consensus was that we'd be colossal idiots to give up on RG3 at this point, this early in his career. Opposing fans apparently aren't as short sighted as we are. They remember 2012.  

Gruden will go with the best QB. If Cousins keeps playing well then there will be an open competition for QB next year. We as fans have to have faith that Gruden will do what's best for the team. He will go with who he thinks will give him the best chance to win and stay the head coach for more than just 2 or 3 years. If RGIII wins the battle then he's our guy, if not we'll have to part ways.

[RED06]

this might be one of those times its worth paying attention to the details ...

 

"Skins fans" are loyal ... to the Redskins!  Being "loyal" to a particular player is a very very different thing.  Its so different it translates as being a fan of that specific player.  "Skins fans" want the Skins to succeed, to win games, to play impressively, to win championships, to dominate, to be a dynasty.  It also means that "Skins fans" want the players who are performing best now/most-recently to play so that the "Skins" have the best chance to realize these desires ... for the "Skins."

 

There is no contradiction.  There are different opinions about a purely subjective situation ... assessing who gives us a better chance to win ... but there is no contradiction.  The concept that a "Skins fan" MUST also be a RGIII fan doesn't hold water.

 

Wanting someone other than RGIII to play QB for the Redskins does not make someone a disloyal Redskins fan.  If you can't understand that ... well then ... you need more help than I can offer you

Not that I disagree with you, but I think he was speaking from the point of some Skins fans are willing to give Kirk Cousins a pass based on how special teams and the defense played. But, they wouldn't do the same with RG3 in 2013 when both special teams and defense was a lot worse. And most if not all the blame went on RG3.

 

So he viewed it as a contradiction and disloyal to RG3.