Thoughts on Cousins and the next few weeks

[TheGreek1973]

So you're saying, even if we don't win, you want to lose pretty so there's no way we should see what we have in Griffin.

 

If you care more about losing pretty and not winning games why don't you become a Cowboys fan? romoSUCKS has been doing it for years now.

 

And we don't know if it will take a huge step back. Probably less passing yards and more rushing yards. RG3 is not a hindrance. He runs the offense differently but its still efficient.

I hate to butt in but what he is saying is if the offense can produce with KC at high level and 41 and 34 points is really high, then you keep him in there.  Because the damn special teams can't get it together you don't break another part of the team.

[RED06]

I'll be honest. I think in 5 years Cousins will likely still be the better pocket passer out of the two. He's had more time with it and I think it'll simply be more natural to him. And while I think Griffin will improve, I also think Cousins is likely to improve.

That said, I'm not one of those that buys into the notion that a traditional "pocket passer" is absolutely necessary and believe focusing singularly on that is actually doing Griffin a disservice.

My general stance on this has been if you want a pocket passer who will largley sit in the pocket (or at best bootleg on occasion) and operate from there within a game plan than Kirk Cousins is probably the better option. I think Robert could grow to become that kind of player, and given some of his physical talents could excel, there's a question if he can get there. The cieling is high, but the floor is low. With Kirk, the floor is much higher and I'm not bothered by his lower cieling in that fashion.

(As an aside...people need to go listen to scouts or good NFL guys when talking about "arm strength". Arm Strength is not simply tossing a ball far down field. Regardless of your feelings between Cousins and Griffin, it's really not realistic to suggest Cousins has better arm strength then him. Now whether or not that will ultimately matter over a career is a whole diffferent discussion)

Now, if you're going to recognize that Griffin has talents that a traditional "pocket passer" doesn't and will design your offense and game plan around those things, then I'd be more apt to go with him. I see these other factors as being enough to bridge the gap between him and some "true" pocket passers and then go well past that bridged gap. I think it can seperate him from the Flaccos and Daltons and Cutlers of the world. Continue to develop his pocket passing ability, but utilize his mobility.

I'm not a fan of trying to turn Griffin into something he's not (IMPROVING at something is not the same as TURNING INTO something). If you're going to do that I'd probably say stick with Cousins. However I am a fan of being innovative and using all the abilities Griffin has, and in that case the upside he has entices me more than Cousins.

Since I'm not the coach, ultimatley it's going to come down to what they're going to do and me trusting that they're going to make the best decision for this team. The start of the Jacksonville game began to make me think that Gruden (and perhaps Griffin, depending on what reports you beleive) may've realized that and accepted it and moved forward with that as part of the game plan. Whether that's the case, who knows.

My biggest concern with Griffin is whether he can stay healthy. Essentially, does he turn into Bradford or Stafford? And it's admittedly a gamble because there's no way to know for sure, no matter how badly some posters want to say he absolutely will or won't stay healthy. For me, what side to gamble on largely depends on what the teams plans with him would be.

I think that's what I have a problem with too. RG3 is a very unique player! I can't ever remember a QB that fast and that accurate. I believe you let him play his game (minus injuring himself). I hate this "you must be a pocket passer" to be successful, PERIOD!

 

Records and trends are broken ALL the time. It's a HUGE risk in the NFL though. But, we saw what a dominate DLINE and defense will do to a pocket passer twice in recent Superbowls. Tom Brady (Giants DLINE) and Peyton Manning (Seahawks DLINE)........sheeeshh man. I just want to win.....LOL

[UK Skins]

I'll be honest. I think in 5 years Cousins will likely still be the better pocket passer out of the two. He's had more time with it and I think it'll simply be more natural to him. And while I think Griffin will improve, I also think Cousins is likely to improve.

 

Damn ZR, that's about the most sensible and unbiased post in this entire thread. (And I mean the whole post, I just didn't want to quote the whole thing).

[RED06]

Maybe. Thing that bothers me is if you check out ghosti's history on the board, literally his entire tenure is anti-Griffin posting (I don't see any Tailgate or ATN posts but maybe I missed something.)  And what is even more remarkable is that he somehow MISSED becoming a member in 2012 but instead waits for 2013.  And sure, that could happen but one would think we'd see posts besides ones negatively talking about the QB. I mean, I made my name on QB-related talk but I also talked about everything else.  

LOLOL Is ghosti related to ncr2h???

[Jandre002]

I hate to butt in but what he is saying is if the offense can produce with KC at high level and 41 and 34 points is really high, then you keep him in there.  Because the damn special teams can't get it together you don't break another part of the team.

 

That's fair I think, but I also think if the season is lost or RG3 can return while we have a losing record, that we should play him.

 

If Cousins is playing well enough though, with our weapons, we should be winning anyways. If we're winning, Cousins is playing well, then Cousins should remain the starter and RG3 will be traded.

[RED06]

Damn ZR, that's about the most sensible and unbiased post in this entire thread. (And I mean the whole post, I just didn't want to quote the whole thing).

And I'm still waiting on you to produce that statement LOLOLOL

That's fair I think, but I also think if the season is lost or RG3 can return while we have a losing record, that we should play him.

 

If Cousins is playing well enough though, with our weapons, we should be winning anyways. If we're winning, Cousins is playing well, then Cousins should remain the starter and RG3 will be traded.

You think they will trade RG3 if Cousins is playing well or have a QB competition to see if he can win his job back?

[RED06]

What I said is that Cousins basically just played a game for the ages and people are critiquing him because it wasn't a perfect game.  When you bring up criticism from Griffin's first 3 games of 2013, I don't think you're actually understanding my point.  Griffin had just played 3 awful, awful games and was deserving of lots of criticism.  Cousins just played one of the best games by a Redskins QB in a decade.  There is a significant difference there, and that is why these are not even close to be similar situations.

 

Stepping back, I think what actually happened is that Griffin's fans have convinced themselves that he actually played pretty well in 2013.  Thus, when they encountered criticism of his "good" play in 2013, they thought it was unwarranted.  When Cousins got his opportunity in 2014, it was their opportunity to be the critics.  They then latched onto the first narrative they could find (good half / bad half, can't close out games) despite Cousins' overall good play because in their own minds, Griffin received the same level of criticism for a similar level of play in 2013.

 

The problem is that Griffin's level of play in 2013 was actually pretty horrible, while Cousins has been fantastic so far.  I think that's the root of the problem - some of our fanbase doesn't accept that first part.

See this I totally disagree with. Griffins play in 2013 was horrible compared to what? Other QB's? His 2012? His overall stats? Taam wise? What exactly was HORRIBLE???

 

I think Cousins played a masterful 3 qtrs of football. I will NOT say he played the best football of any QB in the last 10yrs in Washington. Did you see RG3 vs the Saints in 2012? He made some eye popping plays in that game. Scored more points. Didn't throw for more yards than Cousins. But, he didn't turn the ball over and he closed the show when he needed to.

[Jandre002]

And I'm still waiting on you to produce that statement LOLOLOL

You think they will trade RG3 if Cousins is playing well or have a QB competition to see if he can win his job back?

 

I think if Cousins is playing well and we make the playoffs the writing will be on the wall for RG3. In a direct QB competition, especially in the off season, I think Cousins' experience as a pocket passer would shine more than RG3's improvising skills (since you're not allowed to hit the QB anyways).

 

So I don't think RG3 would win that QB competition unless he vastly improves in the pocket, which is something he probably won't do getting second team reps and with no live game experience this season.

[ZRagone]

Damn ZR, that's about the most sensible and unbiased post in this entire thread. (And I mean the whole post, I just didn't want to quote the whole thing).

I appreciate it Though watch out, you'll kill my apparent rep as a "Griffin lover / Cousins hater".

I'm big into politics, and it's really funny the parralels here. Not trying to delve too deep since this is the stadium, but this Cousins / Griffin thing reminds me so much of the Lib/Con split. Contrary to the hyperbolic types on both sides in those debates, neither side hates the country or honestly wants it to do bad. They just have a VERY different perspectives at times on what "Good" may actually look like and how to get to that "good".

I don't doubt the extreme "Cousin Supporters" and "Griffin Supporters" both honestly want this team to win, and both honestly believe the guy they're "backing" gives the team the best chance to win. For the most part I think both groups are by and large REDSKIN fans. They simply have different meanings to winning (the next game? this year? next year? 3 years down? 5 years down? Winning games or getting to playoffs or winning superbowls?). And they have different views on how to GET to that level of winning.

Unfortunately, much like Politics, the extremes on both sides want to believe that their world view and thoughts on what's "good" and how to get there aren't just opinion but unquestioned absolute truth and any that disagree shouldn't be reasoned with but actually must be stomped on and destroyed. And the extremes on both sides, having such a view, just feed into each other in a perpetuating cycle.

Czaben last year was adoment amount trading Cousins to forgo a rift in the fanbase and on this team. While I disagree that it would have been the right move, I agree with him completely that it was the only way to make this rift likely not happen. We had reached a tipping point with Griffin that was going to take multiple winning seasons, or a year equal to or better than the outstanding 2012, before it leveled back out. And as long as there is a legitimate starting caliber backup behind him, which Cousins absolutely is, the fervor was going to be there. And it's not likely to go away current until one of these guys is no longer with the team. And even then, it's going to be a lingering impact on this fanbase.

[skins/psu1981]

Maybe. Thing that bothers me is if you check out ghosti's history on the board, literally his entire tenure is anti-Griffin posting (I don't see any Tailgate or ATN posts but maybe I missed something.)  And what is even more remarkable is that he somehow MISSED becoming a member in 2012 but instead waits for 2013.  And sure, that could happen but one would think we'd see posts besides ones negatively talking about the QB. I mean, I made my name on QB-related talk but I also talked about everything else.  

I was always a poster on Redskins clubhouse for ESPN and also on Sportshoopla's message board. Like I said, I was and am an RG3 advocate and I'm trying to not use the same old cliche's...(your eye's don't lie), but honestly, what are we really hoping for RG3 to do for us now? 2012 was great. Dude was a baller, however, we also saw that Kaepernick and Wilson were also using the read option and they were effectively using it too. The league is a copy cat league and the rest of the NFL were going to catch up to it. in 2013 the league did and Kaepernick, Wilson and RG3 were not effective with the read option anymore. Okay, so we lost one year of RG3 really grasping an NFL pro style offense. Year 2 comes and it was a disaster. Injuries obviously were part of this equation,however the offense was putrid except for a couple of games. So now we are in year 3. We have "professionals" that watched the training camps and pre-seasons and unanimously stated that Cousin's grasp Gruden's offense better than Griffin. Why is a back up Qb with limited real time stats (4 games) doing a better job in Gruden's offense than a QB that has played 29 real time games? RG3,based on experience, should be head and shoulders above Cousin's in every facet of the QB position. Why have we not seen that with Griffin? When is the expectation of Griffin with 3 major injuries in the past year and a half? What are you exactly hoping for? That he recovers from his injury and becomes a better QB in a Gruden offense that will be with the organization for the next 4-5 years depending on Gruden's success.

[Jandre002]

See this I totally disagree with. Griffins play in 2013 was horrible compared to what? Other QB's? His 2012? His overall stats? TEam wise? What exactly was HORRIBLE???

 

I kinda agree here as well. RG3 was on pace for 4,000 yards and 20 TDs. The special teams and defense was even worse last year than this year.

 

He just wasn't good enough to lift the team like in 2012, and he looked awkward. But, if he were on the 49ers or the Seahawks, I think RG3 makes a deep playoff run with either of those teams.

[Going Commando]

The problem is that Griffin's level of play in 2013 was actually pretty horrible, while Cousins has been fantastic so far.  I think that's the root of the problem - some of our fanbase doesn't accept that first part.

No. Griffin's level of play in 2013 was about average under the circumstances. If you want bad, it was Cousins's level of play in 2013. Or your attempt at arm chair psychology here. You're working hard, but you're just so biased and agenda-driven at this point that you've lost base with reality in this whole situation, and you have no idea what you don't know. And you've got a couple like-minded cheerleaders in here making you think you're right, but none of you are really doing anything but talking to yourselves.

[ZRagone]

And I'm still waiting on you to produce that statement LOLOLOL

You're just trolling at this point man.

He made it abundantly clear that his reading of the "at this time only" comment was that you were implying that it meant Cousins was better ONLY at this time and in the future it would be Griffin. It seems at this point he's realized that it was likely a misunderstanding of your point at this time. Given how he suggested he interrpited your statement I can fully understand how he THOUGHT you were saying what he claimed. He misinterprited your statement, which lead to that thought...but based on the misinterpritation his thought was understandable.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

And I'm still waiting on you to produce that statement LOLOLOL

You think they will trade RG3 if Cousins is playing well or have a QB competition to see if he can win his job back?

 

If it were up to me, Cousins would have to be putting in a performance like 2012 Griffin, Wilson, Brees, etc...right now I'm still looking at Josh McCown putting up similar--if not better--stats and performances with the Bears last year when he came off the bench. Guy was lighting up the field. Didn't always result in wins, no matter how well he played.

 

Then Lovie Smith leaves Chicago, signs on as the Bucs' head coach...and instead of finding a new QB he brings McCown along with him. Big mistake. McCown has been crappy this year and is now injured. Bucs are fighting the Jags as worst team in the NFL. Lovie will be searching for McCown's replacement next offseason, when he should have been doing that this offseason.

 

So for me, unless Cousins is playing lights-out and even improving as the season goes on and the wins keep piling up, I'm having an open competition next offseason unless Cousins' play drops off a cliff or Griffin re-injures himself in his first practice back.

[Taylor703]

Please tell me Skins/PSU1981 is actually Truskinsfan18. Everytime someone with 2 or 3 posts starts crushing RGIII I assume it's him signed up with another name lol.

[ZRagone]

No. Griffin's level of play in 2013 was about average under the circumstances. If you want bad, it was Cousins's level of play in 2013. Or your attempt at arm chair psychology here. You're working hard, but you're just so biased and agenda-driven at this point that you've lost base with reality in this whole situation, and you have no idea what you don't know. And you've got a couple like-minded cheerleaders in here making you think you're right, but none of you are really doing anything but talking to yourselves.

Griffin's play in 2013 is probably best described as average, I agree. Though that's damning with faint praise as it comes to ones supposed franchise quarterback. But indeed, if you're going to call his year "horrible" I'd like to see how you find the adjectives to describe Eli's year last year.

In terms of Cousins year in 2013, I think it's a victim of small sample size and is hard to really critique. He had one good, one average, and one very bad game.

Now I'm not one to suggest that Griffin's 2013 is "the new normal". I think there's a plethora of factors that can reasonably be looked at and suggest had a significant impact on his season that just aren't going to be present in most other seasons. However, similarly, I think it's really hard to judge an already small sample size without also taking into account the other factors for Cousins. Specifically in terms of the weather in his one "very bad game".

If we were doing Grades, I'd probably give Griffin a C- for 2013. I'd give Kirk Cousins an Incomplete...3 games is just not enough to really judge his "year", just like trying to judge Griffins 2014 on a few quarters of meaningless preseason and one game is ridiculous.

People need to stop attempting to tear down one of our guys in order to prop up the other. The exact same argument about Griffin's year not being "horrible" could be made with someone like Eli Manning rather than Cousins.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I kinda agree here as well. RG3 was on pace for 4,000 yards and 20 TDs. The special teams and defense was even worse last year than this year.

 

He just wasn't good enough to lift the team like in 2012, and he looked awkward. But, if he were on the 49ers or the Seahawks, I think RG3 makes a deep playoff run with either of those teams.

 

Special teams last year were somewhere around a billion times worse than anything Griffin did last year. I mean we're talking about approaching historically bad. Titanic-bad. Atrocious. Blech.

 

And none of that is an exaggeration.

If we were doing Grades, I'd probably give Griffin a C- for 2013. I'd give Kirk Cousins an Incomplete...3 games is just not enough to really judge his "year", just like trying to judge Griffins 2014 on a few quarters of meaningless preseason and one game is ridiculous.

People need to stop attempting to tear down one of our guys in order to prop up the other. The exact same argument about Griffin's year not being "horrible" could be made with someone like Eli Manning rather than Cousins.

 

I think you have to grade both on a curve lol...

[RED06]

I think if Cousins is playing well and we make the playoffs the writing will be on the wall for RG3. In a direct QB competition, especially in the off season, I think Cousins' experience as a pocket passer would shine more than RG3's improvising skills (since you're not allowed to hit the QB anyways).

 

So I don't think RG3 would win that QB competition unless he vastly improves in the pocket, which is something he probably won't do getting second team reps and with no live game experience this season.

That's more than fair. RG3 has A LOT of work to do too. He can be stubborn with his play at times too. But I can surely see what you're saying.

[Jandre002]

Wow, I just looked back at our schedule in 2013. It was a pretty tough schedule where we needed to be perfect to do well. RG3 just wasn't up to carrying a bad team, but he wasn't as bad as people say:

 

The only truly bad team we lost to was the Vikings, in a game where RG3 had almost 300 yards, no interceptions, and 3 TDs.

 

We lost to the Giants later in the year, where RG3 rushed for 88 yards and passed for 207.  (AlMo only had 26 yards on 11 attempts).

 

And we were competitive until all the drama started towards the end of the season and everything went to hell.

[RED06]

If it were up to me, Cousins would have to be putting in a performance like 2012 Griffin, Wilson, Brees, etc...right now I'm still looking at Josh McCown putting up similar--if not better--stats and performances with the Bears last year when he came off the bench. Guy was lighting up the field. Didn't always result in wins, no matter how well he played.

 

Then Lovie Smith leaves Chicago, signs on as the Bucs' head coach...and instead of finding a new QB he brings McCown along with him. Big mistake. McCown has been crappy this year and is now injured. Bucs are fighting the Jags as worst team in the NFL. Lovie will be searching for McCown's replacement next offseason, when he should have been doing that this offseason.

 

So for me, unless Cousins is playing lights-out and even improving as the season goes on and the wins keep piling up, I'm having an open competition next offseason unless Cousins' play drops off a cliff or Griffin re-injures himself in his first practice back.

This is what I'm thinking too. That Cousins has to produce W's. Not great fantasy points/stats. I would agree that we NEED an open QB competition next year though. And may the best man win.

You're just trolling at this point man.

He made it abundantly clear that his reading of the "at this time only" comment was that you were implying that it meant Cousins was better ONLY at this time and in the future it would be Griffin. It seems at this point he's realized that it was likely a misunderstanding of your point at this time. Given how he suggested he interrpited your statement I can fully understand how he THOUGHT you were saying what he claimed. He misinterprited your statement, which lead to that thought...but based on the misinterpritation his thought was understandable.

He also said I claimed that RG3 was widely known a the better pocket passer. But you're right. I'll leave it alone at this point.

[skins/psu1981]

Please tell me Skins/PSU1981 is actually Truskinsfan18. Everytime someone with 2 or 3 posts starts crushing RGIII I assume it's him signed up with another name lol.

No. I was an old poster on ESPN clubhouse until 2013 when they closed shop. Been on sportshoopla ever since. Always been a fan of this website since 2004. Mainly because of rules and re-threads, however, it's much more organized this way. Just as the previous poster using politics as an analogy for choosing the sides of Cousin's and Griffin, that would also assume that everyone is partisan and have been Pro Griffin or Anti Griffin since day 1. That is not the case. I assumed Griffin was the best of the two and 2012 was fantastic year for Griffin. 2013 was terrible, but the injury to Griffin (and the brace) more or less affected his ability through out the season. I gave him a pass. Who the hell was expecting Griffin to get injured in Week 2? I wasn't and so we waited with anticipation of Cousin's performance and he did not dissapoint. So, yeah using the cliche (eye ball test), tons of "professional analyst" that get paid to watch video who said Cousins at this point is a better fit in Gruden's offense, and an offense that is already catering to Cousin's abilities and will be set in place for the next 4-5 years (depending on Gruden's successs)..what would you like me say? that I think at this point Griffin is the better of the two QB's? I can't do that with good conscious. I think all of us want to see long term success. So I guess we will just see if this is smoke and mirrors or the real deal. Just hoping to win more games

First time for everything though. Looking forward to other comments not related to this topic. Just haven't really had a QB debate like this since the Jason Campbell/Todd Collins debate of 2007

[RED06]

I kinda agree here as well. RG3 was on pace for 4,000 yards and 20 TDs. The special teams and defense was even worse last year than this year.

 

He just wasn't good enough to lift the team like in 2012, and he looked awkward. But, if he were on the 49ers or the Seahawks, I think RG3 makes a deep playoff run with either of those teams.

This is what I'm afraid of. The league knows RG3 was basically carrying the Redskins in 2012. The TEAM was exposed in 2013 and RG3 couldn't carry them any longer due to injury. The OLINE was ignored because of RG3 abilities in 2012. They didn't address it and it blew up in their face. They didn't address the defense much because 2012 RG3 could put up points in bunches and win shoot outs and basically carry the team. Not so in 2013.

 

When he wasn't able to in 2013, some labeled him as a bust etc etc. But, other teams don't see RG3 as some of his own fans do here in Washington. GM's are waiting for Washington to let him go. And that's where I think we will pay. I can see Jerry Jones grabbing him fast as lightning and RG3 will haunt us for the rest of his career! I don't want to think about that happening..........

[UK Skins]

Some great points this afternoon. Of course it may not come down to who is the "better QB", but who Gruden prefers to run his offence. As today's article implied, that might well be Cousins. I don't know anything about blocking assignments and the like but if he sets his schemes up in a certain way and wants a QB to do (more or less) exactly what he says then at this point in time (and possibly well into the future ) Cousins may be that man.

[Jandre002]

Some great points this afternoon. Of course it may not come down to who is the "better QB", but who Gruden prefers to run his offence. As today's article implied, that might well be Cousins. I don't know anything about blocking assignments and the like but if he sets his schemes up in a certain way and wants a QB to do (more or less) exactly what he says then at this point in time (and possibly well into the future ) Cousins may be that man.

 

He could be, but if Gruden trades RG3 and doesn't win next year with Cousins, the Gruden era will be ending right after the RG3 era. And we will be in rebuilding mode yet again.

[skins/psu1981]

He could be, but if Gruden trades RG3 and doesn't win next year with Cousins, the Gruden era will be ending right after the RG3 era. And we will be in rebuilding mode yet again.

 

It's certainly a sticky dilemma in both cases of RG3 and Cousins being traded. I would hope that Gruden would have the ultimate decision and not be hog tied by Allen's and Snyder's self interest for whomever QB they want to be traded.