Thoughts on Cousins and the next few weeks

[RED06]

Nah Dallas were 8-8. Saints were 7-9 I believe.

8-8 in not a losing season. 7-9 is though. But I get your point

[StephenDavis]

Based his performance thus far through injury and 2012.....NO! He has still only lost 4 games less than he's won. But his body of work is something you can at least hang your hat on a give it a shot and see if something is still there post injury! BUT, him getting injured is a BIG concern more so than can he play........

We'll have to see how RGIII comes back from this injury yet again. He has to depend on his mobility to be effective. Against the Jags he was doing his thing. We all know if RGIII has to play from the pocket he's not as good as Kirk. 

[weird_gymnasium]

8-8 in not a losing season. 7-9 is though. But I get your point

Dude, I said winning teams. But I also get your point.

[RED06]

We'll have to see how RGIII comes back from this injury yet again. He has to depend on his mobility to be effective. Against the Jags he was doing his thing. We all know if RGIII has to play from the pocket he's not as good as Kirk. 

And you will be correct on that observation. But, that has been widely known for a long while that Kirk is a better "pocket" passer than RG3 only at this point and time though! Kirk is NOT a better pure "football" player than RG3 or a better passer! Pocket awareness passer yes, more accurate passer NO!

Dude, I said winning teams. But I also get your point.

Yeah I think we're both kinda saying the same thing?!?!? LOLOL Dallas would've won the division with a 8-8 record that year had they beat us. But, I've seen  teams win the division with a 7-9 record and go to the playoffs and WIN the Superbowl. Would that be considered a "losing" season too?

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

And you will be correct on that observation. But, that has been widely known for a long while that Kirk is a better "pocket" passer than RG3 only at this point and time though! Kirk is NOT a better pure "football" player than RG3 or a better passer! Pocket awareness passer yes, more accurate passer NO!

Yeah I think we're both kinda saying the same thing?!?!? LOLOL Dallas would've won the division with a 8-8 record that year had they beat us. But, I've saw teams win the division with a 7-9 record and go to the playoffs and WIN the Superbowl. Would that be considered a "losing" season too?

 

 

Um who?

[Jandre002]

And you will be correct on that observation. But, that has been widely known for a long while that Kirk is a better "pocket" passer than RG3 only at this point and time though! Kirk is NOT a better pure "football" player than RG3 or a better passer! Pocket awareness passer yes, more accurate passer NO!

 

 Yup I think this is true, but then people who don't know what there talking run away with that assessment and start thinking Robert can't make difficult passes.

 

Being a pocket passer is less about actual passing and more about feeling out the game. Its something Robert has never had to do before because his athletic ability got him out of trouble. So he had to learn it, but he still hasn't really gotten a chance to do it.

 

Its something Kirk has done before, which is why he looks so much better immediately.

 

But in terms of throwing the ball accurately, into tight spaces, etc, RG3 is just as good as Kirk.

 

Throwing with anticipation and all of those things means you need to be comfortable, which Kirk is right now and Robert was moving towards.

[StephenDavis]

Interesting article on NFL.com which was mentioned earlier but I think the conclusion sums up the argument raging in this thread.

 

"As we pointed out on Sunday night's edition of the Around The League Podcast, NFL coaches are obsessed with controlling as many outcomes as possible. The last thing they want is a rogue quarterback going off script. Cousins is better suited to Gruden's offense. He will follow the script to a tee whereas the beauty of RGIII's game is in the freelancing. Even if a more dynamic Griffin was truly progressing prior to his ankle injury, Gruden realizes that winning games is the NFL trump card."

 

Cousins needs to start winning games. If he does it may be impossible to put Griffin back in.

This makes since. Gruden with RGIII doesn't know what a play's outcome is going to be. With Kirk he has a much better idea of how each play is going to go.

 

Bingo. THANK YOU Califan007. That's EXACTLY what I'm saying. And The Redskins will live to regret it just as ATL did with Farve if we did something stupid like that.

I would think you would be in the minority on your opinion here. RGIII needs his mobility to be effective. I just don't see him being explosive for a while. Mentally he was effected big time last season after the knee injury. He wouldn't even plant and throw confidently. How's this freak ankle injury going to mess with his mind this time? If Cousins keeps this up we will have no choice but to let RGIII go. We won't even be able to get much in return for him if we were to trade him, so I would guess he would be the backup next season until his contract is up. I could see Cousins being more like Favre if we let him go. The kid can sling it.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

 

Please explain my point to Red06 now lol

 

 

Bingo. THANK YOU Califan007. That's EXACTLY what I'm saying. And The Redskins will live to regret it just as ATL did with Farve if we did something stupid like that.

 

 

 How the hell are you saying thank you when you don't even get the point? lol

 

 

He doesn't have to explain ANYTHING to me!

 

 

 

 

LOL!!

[UK Skins]

But, that has been widely known for a long while that Kirk is a better "pocket" passer than RG3 only at this point and time though! Kirk is NOT a better pure "football" player than RG3 or a better passer! Pocket awareness passer yes, more accurate passer NO!

 

You are unreal! One would imagine that if they both improve at the same rate then Cousins will always be the better? What makes you think that Griffin is one day (in the distant future) going to be a better pocket passer than Cousins?!

 

I accept that Griffin was once the better pure "football" player (and may still be depending on his injuries) and that can't be taught, or improved on, but similarly you can't teach pocket awareness and I am not sure Griffin will ever learn it.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

You are unreal! One would imagine that if they both improve at the same rate then Cousins will always be the better? What makes you think that Griffin is one day (in the distant future) going to be a better pocket passer than Cousins?!

 

I accept that Griffin was once the better pure "football" player (and may still be depending on his injuries) and that can't be taught, or improved on, but similarly you can't teach pocket awareness and I am not sure Griffin will ever learn it.

 

No two players improve at the same rate, though. Ever. Players don't even improve during their careers at a consistent rate.

 

And while you can't teach pocket awareness, it can be learned through experience and comfort.

[StephenDavis]

And you will be correct on that observation. But, that has been widely known for a long while that Kirk is a better "pocket" passer than RG3 only at this point and time though! Kirk is NOT a better pure "football" player than RG3 or a better passer! Pocket awareness passer yes, more accurate passer NO!

I relate pocket passing and running the offense more efficiently as being a more "pure" football player. RGIII is a more pure athlete. But if athletic was all you needed to be to play in the NFL we would have seen Usain Bolt at wide out. After Kirk's last two outing you cannot honestly say that RGIII is a better passer. Kirk is great himself. On the game day board a few people were saying Cousins didn't have the arm strength to throw deep and then BAM, Djax caught that bomb for 6.  

[RED06]

No two players improve at the same rate, though. Ever. Players don't even improve during their careers at a consistent rate.

 

And while you can't teach pocket awareness, it can be learned through experience and comfort.

Thank you again Califan007. I really didn't want respond to that. It's funny to see him say how unreal I am about my statement. Yet, some don't think about what they say before they respond. Steve Young was horrible in Tampa Bay. Went to SF 49ers was coached up and you know the rest. And I many more that I can name, but what's the use. Thanks again Califan007.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Soooo no one is gonna inform me of this team that went 7-9 and won a SB? Lol

[ZRagone]

It makes a lot more sense to dismiss rg3s 2012 season than any of cousins' seasons, for obvious reasons (he blew out his knee since then, he was running an offense that nobody had an answer for). Rg3s 2013 season is the new normal for him, which has so far been confirmed by his poor performance in 2014 (awful preseason, 6 points on offense, and and way too many sacks/hits/fumbles). It would make sense to exclude cousins' Browns game if there had been some watershed moment between then and now.

And this is nothing but rationalizing in a fashion that suits your bias and makes you feel like your uneven judgement of the two is perfectly justified.

You completley throw out Griffin's 2012, but declare his 2013 one is "the new normal". Now, are there reasons why someone may have doubts about Griffin replicating his 2012 performance? Absolutely! But it's a sign of pure bias and a lack of objectivity when the same person refuses to acknowledge that there are legitimate reasons to have doubts that Griffin's 2013 performance is "normal".

An off season spent rehabbing rather than improving football skills. A training camp/preseason that was severely limited. A bounce back from a major injury that many professionals say takes some time after being "healthy" to get back over the mental hurdles needed to trust the injured limb. A dysfunctinoal coaching relationship, lockerroom issues, and as the season progressed a sense of "giving up" by some on the team. (Note, those last three are things routinely used...legitimately so...as a means of explaining some of Cousins poor 2013).

Even if you don't agree with all of those things it's RIDICULOUS to simply ignore their existance and declare that 2013 is going to be the "new normal" while completely and utterly writing off 2012.

And you're attempting to use Pre-season, long held as being relatively menaingless as a clear indicator of reality? Remember Cam Newton's attrocious rookie preseason and then two 400 yard passing games right off of it? Heck, remember Griffin's rather benign rookie preseason before coming out in the Saints game? And you're attempting to use a game and five play sample size to declare it's a "new normal". A first game with good statistics hampered by red zone fumbles and was clearly in part identified as following the scheme the coach called, and a second game which actually showed him clearly being a legitimate running threat and with some solid passes?

Meanwhile you act as if there are absolutely no legitimate reasons why someone may take less of Cousins first start into account. You had a QB starting in the NFL for the first time with no game tape on him, in an offense all season that didn't match the offense he used. You've also now had 5 games since that first game where his fourth quarter success has been significantly different (with the last 5 games all being more similar to each other then they were to cleveland). All legitimate reasons why someone may focus on the more recent.

You're a biased poster desperately clinging to "your guy", no different than the "griffin fanboys" people like you have been screaming against recently (often recently as nothing but shadows on a wall). You rationalize away your lack of objectivity and attempt to obfuscate your excusing of anything to pump up Cousins while being extremely critical and dismissive of Griffin.

The reality is that both have shown very good potential and both have shown problems. Griffin has shown over a years sample size of the potential to be an elite level player. That said, there are legitimate questions as to whether or not he can return to such a form. Cousins has shown over a small sample size that he has the capacity to be a very good QB, with the potential to maybe be elite if he can up his arm strength over time. However, there's danger in trusting small sample sizes. The single season by Griffin was too small to judge off of, and we're attempting to judge Cousins off a fraction of that.

There's no huge rush to declare who the QB must be right now and to do so if folly and foolish. To dismiss either of them is ludicrous. And to constantly attempt to trash one of our players in order to pump up another, all while attempting to accuse people of caring more about a "player" than the "team" as so many people are lately, is LUDICROUS.

There's legitimate and reasonable arguments and reasons to beleive either of these guys could be our future, someone elses future, or end up flaming out. And those arguments can easily be made without desperately tearing down the other guy directly or indirectly.

[RED06]

I relate pocket passing and running the offense more efficiently as being a more "pure" football player. RGIII is a more pure athlete. But if athletic was all you needed to be to play in the NFL we would have seen Usain Bolt at wide out. After Kirk's last two outing you cannot honestly say that RGIII is a better passer. Kirk is great himself. On the game day board a few people were saying Cousins didn't have the arm strength to throw deep and then BAM, Djax caught that bomb for 6.  

See here's the problem. How can you say for sure that Kirk is GREAT?!?! LOL......

 

Kirk has yet to be tested this year and you've already labeled him as "great"? He's only won 2 games in his NFL career. Against 2 horrible teams. One of those wins was in 2012.....the season that EVERYONE who supports Kirk and NOT RG3 wants the RG3 "fanboys" as they call them to forget about.

 

How many deep bombs and BAM have you seen RG3 throw?? I like Cousins. but, I'm NOT going to call him ANYTHING close to great at this point.

[Jandre002]

You are unreal! One would imagine that if they both improve at the same rate then Cousins will always be the better? What makes you think that Griffin is one day (in the distant future) going to be a better pocket passer than Cousins?!

 

I accept that Griffin was once the better pure "football" player (and may still be depending on his injuries) and that can't be taught, or improved on, but similarly you can't teach pocket awareness and I am not sure Griffin will ever learn it.

 

 Maybe you can't coach someone to be aware in the pocket, but repetition does produce a better pocket awareness. RG3 is used to escaping not standing in the pocket. Standing in the pocket is something new, so he probably doesn't have that internal clock, and he probably doesn't feel the pressure well. When (if) RG3 is able to "get it" in the pocket, he will go from thinking about it to doing it naturally. You would think Kirk would always be ahead in this area since he is very good at it, but I think RG3 will close the gap once he gets a few games to practice it.

[RED06]

Soooo no one is gonna inform me of this team that went 7-9 and won a SB? Lol

DUDE are you being serious??? REALLY???? then you put an LOL behind it like it's funny? WOW.....

 

How about if you're not going to bring anything of substance to the conversation instead of nitpicking EVERY damn thing I say then respond to someone else. I'm typing on my phone while with auto correct etc etc etc. I meant 9-7 and it was the Giants.

 

Are you really that petty?

[UK Skins]

Red06 you made a categorical statement of fact that Griffin will be a better pocket passer than Cousins in the very near future. Even more laughably you suggested that it has been widely known for some time. Leaving aside the grammatical problems with your statement it is clearly utter rubbish as Griffin is injured and will be for at least five weeks. Of all the Griffin lovers and Cousins haters on here you are by far the worst.

[DiscoBob]

 

I would agree with this, but on this thread it seems the prevailing thought is that the team should move on from RG3 because he's just not good enough, his "potential" is an urban myth, and that they should go with whoever is further along in their development as a pocket passer right now. However, since it appears Griffin will indeed be coming back healthy this season, I think that if he does end up playing games and looks good doing so, the injury aspect shouldn't weight too heavily in the minds of Allen and Gruden.

 

This appears to the be the main point that many are missing.  This thread is not about how RGIII's injury history impacts his future, everyone is talking about the skills he brings to the table as a QB.  I've said it before in this thread, RGIII was not drafted because he was adept at reading defenses, it was because of his athletic ability, strong arm, and accuracy.  Those are all things that are difficult to teach, whereas reading a defense and anticipating a throw are things that are regularly taught (to varying degrees of success).

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Am I a hater if I'm extremely skeptical that RG3 can replicate a season like 2012 because his injuries have altered him as an elite athlete both physically and mentally ? That's my biggest thing with RG3. I'm 110% sure the ability was the there in 2012. Now? Not as much.

And for the 3rd time, Red06 who is this mystery SB winning 7-9 team? Lol

[UK Skins]

DiscoBob - I think most are questioning how much his injuries and all the game and practice time he is missing are going to impact that. I really do think underneath all the posturing that folks on here are really pleased to have two QBs with such potential. With one of them needing so much teaching (or learning as Califan prefers to call it!) he is, however, in danger of never reaching that potential. Or at least not being with the Redskins if he does.

[RED06]

 Maybe you can't coach someone to be aware in the pocket, but repetition does produce a better pocket awareness. RG3 is used to escaping not standing in the pocket. Standing in the pocket is something new, so he probably doesn't have that internal clock, and he probably doesn't feel the pressure well. When (if) RG3 is able to "get it" in the pocket, he will go from thinking about it to doing it naturally. You would think Kirk would always be ahead in this area since he is very good at it, but I think RG3 will close the gap once he gets a few games to practice it.

Great post man.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

DUDE are you being serious??? REALLY???? then you put an LOL behind it like it's funny? WOW.....

How about if you're not going to bring anything of substance to the conversation instead of nitpicking EVERY damn thing I say then respond to someone else. I'm typing on my phone while with auto correct etc etc etc. I meant 9-7 and it was the Giants.

Are you really that petty?

I mean since you were talking about a 7-9 Saints team in that post I was responding to...

[UK Skins]

Great post man.

Yes it was.

[RED06]

Red06 you made a categorical statement of fact that Griffin will be a better pocket passer than Cousins in the very near future. Even more laughably you suggested that it has been widely known for some time. Leaving aside the grammatical problems with your statement it is clearly utter rubbish as Griffin is injured and will be for at least five weeks. Of all the Griffin lovers and Cousins haters on here you are by far the worst.

Show it to me? Show me where I said that?