The 2014-2015 Offensive Line Thread

[nemocystem]

C-note Richardson is a pipe dream...A lovely one, but a pipe dream nonetheless.

I think our biggest/best option is to go after a RT in FA...of which there aren't many, or take a LT early to make into a RT, or go after a RT in the 3rd/4th rd. After that...I just don't see any guards available that are impact guys.

I think the O-line will be a project, with a volume & competition approach. Possibly needing 2-3 years to fill out completely.

Monty is serviceable, & Chester isn't the worst RG in the NFL. Polumbus is puke-worthy though & Lich. ..well he's only good in a ZBS situation. The minute you ask him to power block or pass-protect

...you might as well give up.

If we focus on those 2 spots, LG, & RT...we could be "ok" for a year. I really hope we can find a diamond in the rough though...that's our best bet.

[HTTRDynasty]

C-note Richardson is a pipe dream...A lovely one, but a pipe dream nonetheless.

I think our biggest/best option is to go after a RT in FA...of which there aren't many, or take a LT early to make into a RT, or go after a RT in the 3rd/4th rd. After that...I just don't see any guards available that are impact guys.

I think the O-line will be a project, with a volume & competition approach. Possibly needing 2-3 years to fill out completely.

Monty is serviceable, & Chester isn't the worst RG in the NFL. Polumbus is puke-worthy though & Lich. ..well he's only good in a ZBS situation. The minute you ask him to power block or pass-protect

...you might as well give up.

If we focus on those 2 spots, LG, & RT...we could be "ok" for a year. I really hope we can find a diamond in the rough though...that's our best bet.

 

Name one who's worse.  He is by far our weakest O-lineman.  Chester shouldn't even be in the NFL.

[ComManDersFan57]

Finally, a thread without too much moaning and groaning.

 

I'm not an X and O guy but I know a good O line when I see it. It seems to me that our line needs to get bigger. We were shoved back too many times and the pass protection couldn't create a pocket. I don't care who we get or cut. I want to see a line that can pass block and create holes for the running game. If that's over simplistic, so be it. I firmly believe that a good offense starts with a strong O line.

 

I don't know the available personnel in FA or in the draft well enough to make recommendations on acquisitions. I think we need to add some pounds equipped with brains. 

[Chump Bailey]

I'd love to get Mack to take over for Montgomery, but I doubt the Browns let him walk or any team that has a pending FA top tier OL. I'm convinced Hurt can play in this league as a starter personally.

 

Charles Brown Saint's has struggled at the LT position and might be available. I liked him coming out and believe the ability is there.

 

My targets in FA are the Dolphins John Jerry and perhaps Charles Brown. I'd overpay for Jerry's services personally.

 

Trent, Hurt, Montgomery, Jerry, Brown = OL adept/at a minimum an upgrade at run/pass pro and strong at the POA.

 

To this member anyway...

[Emsworth]

Richardson is going to be a coveted prospect, but I don't think he's a lock to be gone by 34, there's a lot of highly regarded Tackles & WR who are gonna get picked off early, an early run on either might cause a reshuffling of priorities on draft boards. We don't know yet who the 'meteoric riser/vastly overdrafted' guys are gonna be either. Still if he is gone then Gabe Jackson is still a good option, not perhaps as certain a prospect but I think he has a similarly high potential ceiling. We may even be able to trade back a little and get him, depending how the next few months shake out.

 

Lots of options but I'd love to come out of the draft with one of those two.

[jobaga]

Is everyone giving up on LeRibeus and Gettis? I thought one of them would stick. It would definitely help if one or both of these guys could fill a guard spot.

[KDawg]

Question for everyone that keeps saying we have guys who can't power block... What the heck is a power block? Do you mean blocking on the specific play, "power"? Note: I'm not saying I disagree that we don't have a powerful OL, I'm just curious what people consider a "power" block.

[lupin_iv]

I'm absolutely no expert on these things, but I'm assuming when people talk about 'power' blocking they are talking about locking onto a defender and pushing them back off of the line of scrimmage. Whereas, the perception is that in 'zone' blocking, it's about moving to a spot and forcing the defender to try and beat you there, rather than just locking on and pushing them back.

 

Is that a bit of a misconception?

[skinny21]

I'm absolutely no expert on these things, but I'm assuming when people talk about 'power' blocking they are talking about locking onto a defender and pushing them back off of the line of scrimmage. Whereas, the perception is that in 'zone' blocking, it's about moving to a spot and forcing the defender to try and beat you there, rather than just locking on and pushing them back.

Is that a bit of a misconception?

I think you're right about the first part (from a perception standpoint), but for the zone blocking it's about getting guys to move laterally by blocking (shoot, I don't know how to say this...) a guy not lined up in front of you? That's not quite right because on combo blocks someone IS blocking the person across from them. Oh never mind. I could draw it out but that ain't happening.

Basically blocking straight ahead vs blocking laterally. I think the perception is that if guys can block straight ahead then they can do a better job at the POA in pass pro. Maybe?

[KDawg]

Zone blocking is not necessarily blocking laterally. When I have more time I can go more in detail, but zone can be "power" blocking. For the most part you always want to displace the DL backward off the LOS.

[Voice_of_Reason]

I think the real question is what the guys on the roster can bring.

Here's the thing: I know that everybody around here things that Mike and Kyle Shanahan couldn't coach their way out of a JUCO school, but that's not exactly accurate. I also believe that coaches tend not to cut off their nose to spite their own face, and if they felt like they had better options on the bench than those who were playing, I think you'd see them get opportunities. It happened with Jordan Reed and Hank. As they did better in practice, they got more time on the field.

So, with all that said, and the season over, and the backup QB in, the fact that Gettis and Josh couldn't find their way onto the field was very telling. Unlike some, I REALLY don't think it was because Mike was trying to prove anything. I could be wrong.

So, the question is, of the four main, young backup linemen, can any one or two of them really step up and compete and excel better than the guys who were there? Is Josh gonig to eat himself out of a job again? Is Hurt back healthy? He was PUP until mid-season, then put on IR, so clearly there was something still wrong with him until mid-season. Can Gettis get a nod and push somebody out, and what's up with Compton?

I think that Jay Gruden is going to listen to Forester, and make an evaluation of who he needs to go after in FA and the draft. There is no tape on any of those guys, so keeping the OL coach in place was probably smart, because you already have an evaluation in house.

I also don't thnk that they can replace 4/5 of the OL in one season. Clearly Trent is staying where he is.

The player who seems to have regressed the most was Chester. I think Kory, Monty and Polumbus were virtually the same year over year. But in 2012, they were aided by RGIII's abilitiy to make defenses pause a little. With that not present this year, they stuggled.

Another thing that dropped off was TE play, and specifically TE play at the point of attack. Paulsen was hurt all year, according to Cooley. Davis was benched, and Reed was concussed through much of the second half of the season. That didn't help the OL either.

If I had an order of operations, this is what it would be:

1. Figure out what you have on the roster, and truthfully, which players can be counted on to legitimately compete for starting roles. Cut those that can't.

2. Bring in outside guys who can play to compete for both the RG and RT spots. I think that''s where you start with player personnel stuff.

3. I personally think Monty is fine at Center if the 2 Guards are not behaving like matadors.

I'd like to see 2-3 new players on the line next year. RG and RT are a must, and LG is the other option. Though, I almost feel that keeping Trent, Kory and Monty together would benefit all of them.

I am also interested to see if they can learn to pass block better in a drop back situation. I think the line did ok run blocking, but Chester and Polumbus got abused in pass blocking. They've got to get that fixed.

[Darth Tater]

I'm absolutely no expert on these things, but I'm assuming when people talk about 'power' blocking they are talking about locking onto a defender and pushing them back off of the line of scrimmage. Whereas, the perception is that in 'zone' blocking, it's about moving to a spot and forcing the defender to try and beat you there, rather than just locking on and pushing them back.

 

Is that a bit of a misconception?

Not a bit of a misconception but the core misconception.  In a zone blocking system often a drive block is required (even as a tiny, weak tackle, I always thought that kind of block was the easiest anyway).  Never thought being a good power blocker makes you good at pass pro (I remember the 80s Redskins found guys good at power blocking all the time but could not do pass pro at all).

[planter]

Big, strong, AND agile!!!

That's a premiere O lineman. The biggest, baddest; and most agile are LTs. They cost $$$$$ because U get what u pay for...

I'm hoping we get a new T and G - at a minimum.

[Leonard Washington]

Polumbus actually improved this year.  Unfortunately Chester fell apart.

 

It will be interesting to see how Gruden builds the group. 

[Conn]

I don't agree with everyone saying Mack is probably going to go back to CLE. A TON of players in that locker room hated how everything went down with the Chud firing, some of those guys are going to want out.

[KDawg]

As far as "ZBS" goes, most schemes are similar. How they are taught is different. You can teach a red side/white side, a trail blocker and a lead blocker, a counting system, zone read... Back's aiming points can vary outside hip of TE, middle of TE, inside leg of TE for outside zone, inside leg of tackle, midline of tackle, B-Gap, outside leg of guard, inside leg of guard, run away from 3-technique and read him for a cutback lane, ect. There's a ton of different ways to teach it/scheme it up.

 

But the premise that the zone blocking scheme (inside or outside) is predicated on lateral movement is blatantly false. The zone schemes are 100% dependent on combination blocks to the second level, with priority one always being get that first level defender driven back off the line of scrimmage. One of the biggest mistakes on zone stuff is letting the down lineman go in order to attack the LB too early. That lets the LB make a move and could leave the down lineman in a tough position to be picked up by the man that's in combination with you. 

 

Inside and outside zone are similar in the combinations. The difference is your track (both the backs and the line) and the basic footwork. Inside zone is a play the OL wants to stay square on. On outside zone, Andy Moeller teaches that the OL should have the same track as the back. Chris Foerster teaches running to your block. The way he figures it is that if the back is trying to get outside, what good are you if you're pokey inside? If the back beats the blocking outside you're in trouble. On outside zone, especially for the end man of the line of scrimmage to the playside, if you take your three steps (inside zone is two steps before you go to level 2, OZ is three steps) or any number of steps and that overhang defender intersects the "T" you create with your first step, you "knock him out" towards the sideline. The back will now have a clear read that he's going to have to hit more inside than out. 

 

So while it's possible that any player on the OL (playside) can simply "knock his man out", the idea is to get to his playside number and move him vertically and laterally at the same time. A northwest, northeast approach. 

 

You stay more square on inside zone because the play is hitting inside. If you turn your shoulders, the LBs have a much clearer run through. Outside zone you're moving a bit quicker, and the run through inside isn't an issue because OL should be getting flippers on and the back should be headed towards the side line. Yes, guys can make plays on the backside if the front side doesn't do it's job, which is why the back side blocking HAS to be on point. 

 

But again, the idea is simple. Move the ****ing defensive lineman backwards. That's priority numero uno. Only displace them laterally if you HAVE to.

[MassSkinsFan]

What do we know about J. D. Walton? I'm intrigued but not expecting too much especially since he was out for a year with an ankle injury. But, can anyone shed light on his relative merits?

 

On another note, don't forget that the OL is a unit, and as such a big improvement in one spot has a pretty large impact. So, rather than the "cut everyone but Trent" party line, I'm hoping to see us upgrade at either RG or RT, or both. Otherwise, the OL is serviceable and we have bigger needs elsewhere.

 

We need to get this Chevy running before we start planning a Cadillac.

[HtownRocks111]

Rumor has it that with the shakeup in Cleveland's brass today that Alex Mack may still be a Brown come season opener

[KDawg]

Rumor has it that with the shakeup in Cleveland's brass today that Alex Mack may still be a Brown come season opener

 

That's okay. Monty really isn't a primary or secondary upgrade concern at the moment. If we can, great. But RG should be priority #1, LG/RT #2 (and Hurt may fit in somewhere, and we'll see where we are with our young guns).

[darrelgreenie]

FA route:

 

LT-Trent Williams

LG-Maurice Hurt

C-Kory Lichtensteiger

RG-Willie Colon

RT-Zach Strief

LT-Trent Williams

LG-Maurice Hurt

C-Kory Lichtensteiger

RG-Travelle Wharton

RT- Zach Strief or allocate his FA money elsewhere and open the position up to competition in camp between Tyler, Compton and  a back-up that can challenge like Ryan Harris

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

LT-Trent Williams

LG-Maurice Hurt

C-Kory Lichtensteiger

RG-Travelle Wharton

RT- Zach Strief or allocate his FA money elsewhere and open the position up to competition in camp between Tyler, Compton and  a back-up that can challenge like Ryan Harris

 

 

I don't know man, not really comfortable with signing a 33 year old to start.  We've been developing guys like Hurt, LeRibeus, and Gettis.  They're cheaper than Wharton would be.  Always worried about 2008 repeating itself.  Old O-line starts out strong, but fades late as they get nagging injuries that hurt their production.  This may be foolish, but I want to throw our youngsters into the fire and see what comes out.

 

What I'm also worried about is a New Orleans Tackle.  They have always had an amazing interior o-line.  Combine that with Drew Brees pocket movement and I feel like it makes their Tackles look better than they are.  Bushrod was a sought after LT in FA, his play wound up being decent (which was an improvement over their previous attempts).

 

What I kind of want to look for, are guys who are young, have been improving and have played decently while protecting an inexperienced or poor QB.  Basically guys who might look better on a better team.  Such as Austin Howard the starting RT for the Jets.  He'd be cheap, and he could improve even more.  Jets fans seem to wonder if Howard would look better playing alongside a better RG.  So it's possible (if we improve at RG), and our QB improves his footwork and pocket movement, that Howard improves even further.  He'll be 27 in March.

[darrelgreenie]

No player is without warts.

 

I don't know man, not really comfortable with signing a 33 year old to start.  We've been developing guys like Hurt, LeRibeus, and Gettis.  They're cheaper than Wharton would be.  Always worried about 2008 repeating itself.  Old O-line starts out strong, but fades late as they get nagging injuries that hurt their production.  This may be foolish, but I want to throw our youngsters into the fire and see what comes out.

 

What I'm also worried about is a New Orleans Tackle.  They have always had an amazing interior o-line.  Combine that with Drew Brees pocket movement and I feel like it makes their Tackles look better than they are.  Bushrod was a sought after LT in FA, his play wound up being decent (which was an improvement over their previous attempts).

 

What I kind of want to look for, are guys who are young, have been improving and have played decently while protecting an inexperienced or poor QB.  Basically guys who might look better on a better team.  Such as Austin Howard the starting RT for the Jets.  He'd be cheap, and he could improve even more.  Jets fans seem to wonder if Howard would look better playing alongside a better RG.  So it's possible (if we improve at RG), and our QB improves his footwork and pocket movement, that Howard improves even further.  He'll be 27 in March.

Signing a short contract player like Wharton improves the RG position while still allowing our home grown talent to emerge because Wharton doesn't tie up future money. He's essentially a one-year upgrade rental.

 

I could get behind Howard but I wonder how much better he is then Tyler. (who benefit likewise from improved RG play and a QB with improved footwork/pocket movement)

I am not married to any 1 OT in particular. Strief suits my taste because he's a consistent player, proven pass protector and a short term contract which gives us time to find a solution in house or via the draft.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

No player is without warts.

 

Signing a short contract player like Wharton improves the RG position while still allowing our home grown talent to emerge because Wharton doesn't tie up future money. He's essentially a one-year upgrade rental.

 

I could get behind Howard but I wonder how much better he is then Tyler. (who benefit likewise from improved RG play and a QB with improved footwork/pocket movement)

I am not married to any 1 OT in particular. Strief suits my taste because he's a consistent player, proven pass protector and a short term contract which gives us time to find a solution in house or via the draft.

 

True, I don't know enough about Howard to say if he's better than Tyler.

 

As for Wharton, I guess I'd only like that if either Lichtensteiger or Montgomery were released.  So no matter what, some of our youth would get a shot.

[Brokenstriker]

'd add a couple of FA to the target list ...

 

C:

Alex Mack, Browns - Priority Target

Brian de la Puente, Saints

 

OT: - Priority Target (1 or more)

Brandon Albert, Chiefs

Eugene Monroe, Ravens

Michael Oher, Ravens

Jordan Gross, Panthers

 

OG:

Kevin Boothe, Giants

 

 

and there's a chance the Skins could see some of these draft options without any dramatic move up ...

 

C:

Travis Swanson, Arkansas

 

OG:

David Yankey, Stanford

Xavier Su'a-Filo, UCLA

Gabe Jackson, Miss State

 

OT:

Cyrus Kouandjio, Alabama

Morgan Moses, UVA

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

 

OT: - Priority Target (1 or more)

Brandon Albert, Chiefs

Eugene Monroe, Ravens

Michael Oher, Ravens

Jordan Gross, Panthers

 

You've got Cyrus Kouandjio as a possible option in the draft, I'd be pretty happy if he was there for our 2nd round pick.

 

For FA though, I don't like any of these guys for us, or think they're realistic.  Albert has said he wants to be traded if asked to play RT.  Oher is overrated and had a terrible year.  Gross is very good, but he's going to be 34 years old, and will probably cost more than a 34 year old should.  I don't see how the Ravens let Monroe leave.