visionary Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Trump's response to the Pope Trump's social media adviser had his own response. https://twitter.com/PhilipRucker/status/700369397601472513 For a guy who wants to be president, Trump sure is making a lot of new enemies outside the country. Let's see, Mexico, England, France, Germany, Belgium.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techboy Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Hey Dan, I don't find your arguments persuasive. Nor do I find you a reasonable fellow. I always say the more personal you make the post, the weaker your case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABQCOWBOY Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Just ask Jack Bauer if torture works. j/k I am laughing at all the people debating if torture works like they have actual knowledge one way or another. I'd bet no one on here has a job where they're close enough to the situations to really know what they are talking about. Stuff like that goes on in dark rooms in places we don't know about. And I doubt there are realistic statistical results that are made available to the public that show the outcome. A lot of what you say here is true. It goes on all the time, even under the current Administration It's just that it is not American's who are doing it. People do not have a real clear idea about the actual process and how it's actually done. That's not a bad thing to be honest. You are way better off not knowing. Trump's response to the Pope Trump's social media adviser had his own response. https://twitter.com/PhilipRucker/status/700369397601472513 For a guy who wants to be president, Trump sure is making a lot of new enemies outside the country. Let's see, Mexico, England, France, Germany, Belgium.... I wonder if this is a point in his favor on the Left? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Torture is great for getting exactly what you want. Just make sure to let the poor sap know what you want ahead of time so when they get to the point where ending the pain is worth more to them than their freedom that they tell you what you're looking for. Otherwise they might keep "playing dumb." Kinda like how a prosecutor will trump up and stack the charges to get you to plea to something lower, not really caring if you are guilty or innocent? But that's not torture because Americans don't do that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 The real question on torture or enhanced interrogation(different) to me is whether you wish to rule out a possible line of information. Does your need for information overrule your distaste in that particular instance. probably for most it comes down to the threat we face Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 It does work. All of what you get out of it might not be actual but it works. I think it's sad that we are at the point in our society that an objection to torture is simply utilitarian. Seriously, the Right is the side screaming about making America great again and returning to good Christian Conservative values and yet they're the one's defending torture! WTFeazie!? It's like the GOP was given a hemisphere-ectomy and the two sides of their brains no longer communicate. All life is sacred! Torture his ass! Seriously, the GOP needs to be medicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABQCOWBOY Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 I think it's sad that we are at the point in our society that an objection to torture is simply utilitarian. Seriously, the Right is the side screaming about making America great again and returning to good Christian Conservative values and yet they're the one's defending torture! WTFeazie!? It's like the GOP was given a hemisphere-ectomy and the two sides of their brains no longer communicate. All life is sacred! Torture his ass! Seriously, the GOP needs to be medicated. It's not just the Right. I know that's a popular way of looking at things but seriously, it goes on still. I know this is not a discussion anybody on here will agree with me about. At least, not many but still in all, it does happen still. I'm just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 It's not just the Right. I know that's a popular way of looking at things but seriously, it goes on still. I know this is not a discussion anybody on here will agree with me about. At least, not many but still in all, it does happen still. I'm just saying. Source....and if you direct me to WND I'll probably have a stroke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Trump v The Pope. If you translated half of what Trump says into Arabic and flipped a few words of who he's against. Would he be that different than an ISIS spokesperson? It's like the picture of the young Muslim posing with guns and in front of a flag, and then the young American woman doing the same. But people not seeing how alike they present themselves. If rolls in SC and then NV. Are we going to still talk about "National" polls like they are relevant and how voting happens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s0crates Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 For real. Anyone who thinks torture doesn't work give me 5 minutes with you, alone in a shed, no holds barred. Then you can tell me if it's working or not. You guys are missing my point. Torture works if what you mean by "it works" is "it gets the person being tortured to say whatever the torturer wants him to say." But it doesn't work if what you mean by "it works" is "it is a useful method for discovering the truth." If you tortured me, then I'd say whatever I thought you wanted to hear, for sure, but that's exactly the reason it doesn't work. Whatever you want to hear might not be the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 I'm guessing the half ya leave off is about making deals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABQCOWBOY Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Source....and if you direct me to WND I'll probably have a stroke. You would not find my source credible. The Right would produce sources that say it is effective, the Left would produce sources that say it is not. I would look to my own life experiences. There is no link for that and I understand this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 You would not find my source credible. The Right would produce sources that say it is effective, the Left would produce sources that say it is not. I would look to my own life experiences. There is no link for that and I understand this. All in favor of ABQ telling us about his life experience with the efficacy of torture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 So a bipartisan senate committee evaluates the effectiveness of torture used by CIA and determines that it produced nothing substantial. So people who had access to the information and usage came to the same conclusion despite differing political viewpoints. But apparently torture works according to some of you because "reasons". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 The CIA doesn't torture Is ....define Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Trump v The Pope. If you translated half of what Trump says into Arabic and flipped a few words of who he's against. Would he be that different than an ISIS spokesperson? It's like the picture of the young Muslim posing with guns and in front of a flag, and then the young American woman doing the same. But people not seeing how alike they present themselves. If rolls in SC and then NV. Are we going to still talk about "National" polls like they are relevant and how voting happens? Are you kidding? Trumps not advocating mass beheadings that I know of. And as for the Pope.. I'm a religious Catholic and a big fan of this Pope. Let me just say.. (1) The Pope criticizing Trump for advocating building walls is rather odd given the Vatican is surround by huge feudalistic walls. (2) The Pope saying you can't call yourself a christian if you support trump is also a pour choice of words. Is the Pope aware of whom else is running in this election? (3) In general I'm opposed to the Pope, or any religious figure trying to dictate my vote. When Ameircan Cardinals mandated that 15 minutes of Sunday mass be dedicated to informing Catholics of the evils of the ACA, and tell American Catholics we could not support that bill I was especially horrified back in 2012. If the pope wants to build a case against Trump, I of coarse would listen... However I don't feel from his 20,000 foot vantage he's going to be more informed or even persuasive considering most American catholics immersion in the US political race on our own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Um.... https://twitter.com/liamstack/status/700382187284262912 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogofWar1 Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Trump v The Pope. If you translated half of what Trump says into Arabic and flipped a few words of who he's against. Would he be that different than an ISIS spokesperson? It's like the picture of the young Muslim posing with guns and in front of a flag, and then the young American woman doing the same. But people not seeing how alike they present themselves. This one, I assume? You guys are missing my point. Torture works if what you mean by "it works" is "it gets the person being tortured to say whatever the torturer wants him to say." But it doesn't work if what you mean by "it works" is "it is a useful method for discovering the truth." If you tortured me, then I'd say whatever I thought you wanted to hear, for sure, but that's exactly the reason it doesn't work. Whatever you want to hear might not be the truth. Mordor is in Pakistan! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibDRcBV4x3c (it's Robot Chicken from Adult Swim, may or may not contain language). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s0crates Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Just ask Jack Bauer if torture works. j/k I am laughing at all the people debating if torture works like they have actual knowledge one way or another. I'd bet no one on here has a job where they're close enough to the situations to really know what they are talking about. Stuff like that goes on in dark rooms in places we don't know about. And I doubt there are realistic statistical results that are made available to the public that show the outcome. This is a strictly logical point, you don't even need the data, you just need the ability to reason: 1. Either (X) the interrogator already knows the information to be extracted by torture or (Y) the interrogator does not already know the information to be extracted by torture. 2. If (X), then the torture is unnecessary. 3. If (Y), then the torture is ineffective, because the torturer has no way of knowing when the subject has divulged a truth as opposed to a falsehood he thinks will stop the pain. 4. Therefore torture is either unnecessary or ineffective. And I'll add that this isn't why torture is wrong, but it is a good argument to use when discussing the matter with people who have broken moral compasses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 So a bipartisan senate committee evaluates the effectiveness of torture used by CIA and determines that it produced nothing substantial. Except this is the part where people always stumble. They did show at least one case where it did, but people like to pretend that didn't happen. Or, if they're finally willing to admit they were wrong about that, they move the goal posts to - well it could have been obtained another way, or that it was obtained another way, thus residing in this made up land where confirming information is of no value in intelligence operations and/or the ability to potentially get information another way outweighs the ability to get it the current time the other way because nothing else matters to them. Torture is a nasty thing. You don't have to support it to not completely distort the conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Are you kidding? Trumps not advocating mass beheadings that I know of. And as for the Pope.. I'm a religious Catholic and a big fan of this Pope. Let me just say.. (1) The Pope criticizing Trump for advocating building walls is rather odd given the Vatican is surround by huge feudalistic walls. (2) The Pope saying you can't call yourself a christian if you support trump is also a pour choice of words. Is the Pope aware of whom else is running in this election? (3) In general I'm opposed to the Pope, or any religious figure trying to dictate my vote. When Ameircan Cardinals mandated that 15 minutes of Sunday mass be dedicated to informing Catholics of the evils of the ACA, and tell American Catholics we could not support that bill I was especially horrified back in 2012. The pope is doing what Muslims religious leaders do when they say that extremists don't speak for Islam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 All in favor of ABQ telling us about his life experience with the efficacy of torture? I got dutch oven'd once by my older sister.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonniey Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 I think it's sad that we are at the point in our society that an objection to torture is simply utilitarian. Seriously, the Right is the side screaming about making America great again and returning to good Christian Conservative values and yet they're the one's defending torture! WTFeazie!? It's like the GOP was given a hemisphere-ectomy and the two sides of their brains no longer communicate. All life is sacred! Torture his ass! Seriously, the GOP needs to be medicated. Well that is not the point I'm trying to make. I'm opposed to torture. McCain is correct in that it would be about who we are, not who is being tortured. That said a couple of posters have catagorically stated that torture never works which is a pattently absurd statement to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 And I'll add that this isn't why torture is wrong, but it is a good argument to use when discussing the matter with people who have broken moral compasses. The moral argument cracks me up. On one side you have people that blow up markets full of citizens, kidnap school girls to sell to sex slavery, behead people and make a spectacle about it, brainwash young boys to commit executions, rape and pillage any people they can find. On the other you have waterboarding (which, as a side note, most people get their understanding of waterboarding from TV and movies which is hilarious on its own), sleep deprivation, loud noises, and isolation. But yeah, morals. It's obviously an individuals right to choose their morals and stick to them, but I'm certainly not going to give anyone kudos in this case. Unless you live in the middle east and are at constant threat of these things, or it's your son serving in the military over there (or yourself), then you get kudos from me. The number of Muslims being killed by terrorist organizations dwarfs what 'western' civilization has gone through recently. Got to respect people who stick to their morals even when it poses a risk to them. But sitting over here, no skin in the game, going on about morals in how you treat people who play by absolutely no rules what so ever? Yeah, morals. edit: i find the abuse that went on at abu ghraib, solely for amusement, to be way worse given the context. they're not even in the same ball park to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonniey Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 So a bipartisan senate committee evaluates the effectiveness of torture used by CIA and determines that it produced nothing substantial. So people who had access to the information and usage came to the same conclusion despite differing political viewpoints. But apparently torture works according to some of you because "reasons". Again that is not what is being argued. The statement of torture never works is an absurd statement to make. You can dislike, be opposed, or hate something all you like that doesn't translate into the thing you hate being 100% ineffective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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