Election 16: Donald Trumps wins Presidency. God Help us all!

[tshile]

For a while, there, I had hopes that John McCain was that person.

 

 

Same here.

 

At times I still thought that... you'd see the look on his face when people said certain things... like when the old lady said you can't rust Obama cause he's one of "those a-rabs". He knew he sold his soul to the devil for a chance to be president. I held out hope he'd go back to being moderate if he was elected, that he was only doing it to get where he needed to be.

 

Since he lost the election I can't figure out if he brain washed himself, or went crazy.

[PF Chang]

Oh, well, I was more referring to 'Moderate republican' not just 'moderate'

 

I don't expect either party to nominate a true moderate, only a moderate relative to their party...

 

Gotcha. I guess what bothers me is that while I don't call myself a moderate (mainly because that's a moving target), I'm not on Team Democrat either. Sanders is the only person I have seen diagnose the problems with the country (IMO) correctly, yet he is not taken seriously and is likely considered a nuisance within his own party.

 

At some point I place blame on the Ds -- it's their job to convince people why certain GOP policies would be bad for the country and I think they've failed at that. I don't have answers for them, but I also have not been appointed to lead the country. 

 

There are some "movements" from the left that make me extremely uncomfortable. Bogus statistics are a trend. (Did you know you have a 98% chance of being raped if you step foot on a college campus)? So I am not completely closed to the idea of a centrist Republican. 

 

What really scares me, long story short, is religious control of the government. I think if THIS GOP controls every branch of government we are headed that way. 

 

 

1) Foriegn Policy

- Our Enemies are stonger, more numerous, emboldened and on the march

- Allies are fewer, weaker, in retreat and no longer trust us

 

 

 

- Freedom is down approximately 35%

- Liberty kneed in the groin

- Boots weaker, not on the ground

 

(seriously, what is this nonsense...)

[Larry]

What is moderate in ya'lls world?

I'll toss out another one:

Announcing that y'know? The tax rates we had, back when we had a surplus, really weren't all that bad.

----------

Heck, admitting that tax cuts are part of the deficit might be nice.

[tshile]

Gotcha. I guess what bothers me is that while I don't call myself a moderate (mainly because that's a moving target), I'm not on Team Democrat either. Sanders is the only person I have seen diagnose the problems with the country (IMO) correctly, yet he is not taken seriously and is likely considered a nuisance within his own party.

 

At some point I place blame on the Ds -- it's their job to convince people why certain GOP policies would be bad for the country and I think they've failed at that. I don't have answers for them, but I also have not been appointed to lead the country. 

 

There are some "movements" from the left that make me extremely uncomfortable. Bogus statistics are a trend. (Did you know you have a 98% chance of being raped if you step foot on a college campus)? So I am not completely closed to the idea of a centrist Republican. 

 

What really scares me, long story short, is religious control of the government. I think if THIS GOP controls every branch of government we are headed that way.

You and I are on the same page, even if reading my posts it doesn't seem that way. I've been labeled so many different things I'm not even sure which one I'm supposed to reject anymore. I identify with what republicans are supposed to be about, but not at all with what they actually seem to be about. At the same time, I hope Sanders is given serious consideration by the country; I would love to have him as an option, for the same reasons you outline.

 

And what you outline about the D's is exactly why I hate their platform. They operate under certain guises that I just think are complete horse ****. This idea that everyone's an innocent victim, being destroyed by the republicans. Their 'war on woman' bull****, the way they think every single poor person is just someone who never got a little help (god forbid you look at a situation and place any level of blame on the poor person for being in it), and as much as the republicans seem to attack/fear being educated the democrats go after success, and their foreign policy seems to come from this belief that everyone else in the world is really a good person it's just the big bad republicans that make them do bad things. The movements... are getting old, and generally are full of hypocrisy. They're naive/ignorant of reality, and reek of just wanting to champion something so you can feel good about yourself; what is actually accomplished (or not) is irrelevant.

 

But yes, the religious control of government scares and irritates me to no end.

 

I find myself hating both parties and generally disgusted with their supporters. It's a very weird position to be in.

 

- Freedom is down approximately 35%

- Liberty kneed in the groin

- Boots weaker, not on the ground

 

(seriously, what is this nonsense...)

I think our current administration has made some serious, serious missteps.  But I'm very much in the minority on the middle east issue, so I won't bother anyone with my nonsense

[PF Chang]

I think our current administration has made some serious, serious missteps.  But I'm very much in the minority on the middle east issue, so I won't bother anyone with my nonsense

 

Haha, I don't think what you'd post would be nonsense. Just thought nonniey's response to Hersh was absurd. 

[88Comrade2000]

Almost time for the wanna-be debate.  I wonder if those that don't care for FOX news, but are interested in watching the debate; will watch?  Can they stomach, having to watch the channel?

[twa]

I'll toss out one.

Saving (not eliminating, not replacing) Social Security.

 

Jebs plan to save it seems a a lot like one you endorse....raising the age

 

 

Almost time for the wanna-be debate.  I wonder if those that don't care for FOX news, but are interested in watching the debate; will watch?  Can they stomach, having to watch the channel?

 

Debate drinking game for me

[Larry]

Jebs plan to save it seems a a lot like one you endorse....raising the age

I'm on my iPhone, so complicated editing is out. But first hit on a Google search for "jeb bush social security" is "Jeb Bush: Next President Should Privatize Social Security".

Next attempt?

Edit:

But looking at some articles, it looks like that might be a misleading headline. Looks like what he SAID was that the next President needs to look at strengthening SS. And people jumped to the conclusion that he was talking about his brother's privatization plan.

It's looking like he may actually making a reasonable proposal, AND doing it before the election, when it can really hurt him.

Think I'm gonna have to give the guy MAJOR props. This might be a downright heroic move, for a politician.

[@DCGoldPants]

Jebs plan to save it seems a a lot like one you endorse....raising the age

 

 

 

Debate drinking game for me

 

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-official-gop-debate-drinking-game-rules-20150805

 

Some don't apply until tonight, but...have fun.

 

Drink THE FIRST TIME:

1. Donald Trump mentions his wealth, or how smart he is.

2. A candidate mentions Benghazi

3. A candidate says, "This president..."

4. A candidate whines about not getting called on enough.

5. Someone promises to "take America back."

6. Trump interrupts someone by saying, "Excuse me, let me answer that…"

7. Anyone mentions Hitler, Nazis or Neville Chamberlain. Includes related imagery, e.g. "ovens."

8. The crowd cheers a racist/bigoted statement by a candidate.

9. A candidate mentions his poor/hardscrabble upbringing, or a parent who "worked every day of his life."

10. A candidate talks about "stopping Hillary Clinton."

11. Anyone warns the U.S. is becoming Greece.

12. Trump refers to himself in the third person.

13. Anyone invokes St. Ronald Reagan.

Drink EVERY time a candidate:

14. Claims a positive relationship with a minority. Also known as the, "Some of my best friends are…" rule.

15. Tries to speak Spanish

16. Tries to warm up to the Ohio crowd with an awkward LeBron shout-out.

Drink EVERY TIME you hear the word(s):

17. "I'm not a scientist."

18. "You can keep your doctor."

19. "ACORN."

20. "The war on Christians."

21. "Thug."

22. "Right here in Ohio."

23. "Culture of dependency."

TAKE A SHOT OF JAGER AT ANY MENTION OF:

24. "Kenya."

25. "All Lives Matter."

 

[88Comrade2000]

There's barely anybody in the arena for the warm up debate.

[Hersh]

Are you a slow pitch softball pitcher?

 

1) Foriegn Policy

- Our Enemies are stonger, more numerous, emboldened and on the march

- Allies are fewer, weaker, in retreat and no longer trust us

 

2) Race relations (Which we all hoped would improve after the 2008 election) have seriously deteriorated, largely (heck I'd say primarily) due to how the adminstration injected itself into the issue and how it uses race as a weapon against it's opponents (ie opposition to his policies is racist? How often have we seen that trotted out?)

 

3)  Domestic Policy

- Economic policy undermined recovery causing historically slow recovery

- ACA self explainatory

 

4) Political Ineptitude

- The stimulous package set the tone.  What was it he said to the Republicans that wanted some input - "elections have consequences" and rejected all Republican proposals for the stimulous deal and repeated this behaviour throughout his Presidency.  This led to his adminstration being completely unable to deal with the Republicans initially and eventually started to spread even to his own Democratic side of Congress.  A lot of you believe the problem for failure to compromise is entirely on the Republicans when in fact it is mostly on the President.

 

If anyone, anywhere wanted to do a study on what is wrong with the American politics these days, your post is exhibit 1. Nothing you say in the entire post is supported by FACTS.

 

Therefore, it doesn't matter what the facts are to you and your beliefs.

 

It doesn't matter how many economists believe the stimulus worked or what the benefits are of the ACA by comparison of the health care system before it was enacted.

 

It doesn't matter that our allies are not retreating nor are the enemies "on the march."

 

It doesn't matter that you can't support a claim that economic policies are undermining the economy recovery or that the administration has made race relations worse.

 

All that matters is the ability to make wide ranging generalizations about something in order to support what you've created in your mind.

[88Comrade2000]

Perry still sucks.

[tshile]

something about planned parenthood needs to be on that list

[88Comrade2000]

These questions are stupid.

[tshile]

It doesn't matter how many economists believe the stimulus worked or what the benefits are of the ACA by comparison of the health care system before it was enacted.

 

I thought ACA was worth trying. I agree with what the economists I read have to say about it (which is mostly good things.)

 

ACA is still a complete disaster. From who it excludes, to how it pays for things, to putting the entire onus for cost control on the hospital, to the website (not just it's failure of a launch, but total cost.)

 

I'm very angry with how ACA was done. Even though I supported doing it. Extremely disappointed int he Obama administration.

[@DCGoldPants]

If anyone, anywhere wanted to do a study on what is wrong with the American politics these days, your post is exhibit 1. Nothing you say in the entire post is supported by FACTS.

 

Therefore, it doesn't matter what the facts are to you and your beliefs.

 

It doesn't matter how many economists believe the stimulus worked or what the benefits are of the ACA by comparison of the health care system before it was enacted.

 

It doesn't matter that our allies are not retreating nor are the enemies "on the march."

 

It doesn't matter that you can't support a claim that economic policies are undermining the economy recovery or that the administration has made race relations worse.

 

All that matters is the ability to make wide ranging generalizations about something in order to support what you've created in your mind.

 

Whatever, ya Socialist Nazi.

[TheGoodBits]

I thought ACA was worth trying. I agree with what the economists I read have to say about it (which is mostly good things.)

ACA is still a complete disaster. From who it excludes, to how it pays for things, to putting the entire onus for cost control on the hospital, to the website (not just it's failure of a launch, but total cost.)

I'm very angry with how ACA was done. Even though I supported doing it. Extremely disappointed int he Obama administration.

Mostly (imo) because we're still trying to fit a square peg in a round hole by trying to fulfill a fundamental human right (healthcare) while having the entire system designed to squeeze profit out of consumers the entire way.

ACA was a step in the right direction but did nothing to solve the basic problem.

[88Comrade2000]

First commercial break, Carly is doing the best in my mind.  Linsday Graham sounds like he's scared to death.  I think he's nervous as hell. 

[PeterMP]

Larry, in part you're talking to me (at least in part) so as a quick response:

 

I don't know a lot about Bush, so I'm open to being entirely wrong about him.

 

I'd also say that in my view, being a moderate republican, doesn't mean being a moderate on every issue. Given how the GOP is, I feel like being a 'moderate republican' fits reasonably well with what you've pointed out.  Some of those things irritate me, some of them seem more about being corrupt politician than hard core conservative, and rest seem to not go against the idea that he's a moderate republican.

 

It could also be that I, previously, was only really looking a couple of issues.

 

For a republican to come out and be ok with with:

common core

illegal immigrants (OK meaning proposing a solution other than round them, ship them back, build a wall, oh and make sure to say they're all mexicans)

gay marriage (again, OK meaning not saying if you're gay you're a pedophile and/or you're going to hell)

 

That seems pretty 'moderate republican' to me...

 

So I appreciate the additional information, but it doesn't really change my stand so much. But I must admit I haven't had time to read your links thoroughly (and probably wont for another week, skipping town here soon )

 

 

If we are going to talk about moderate with respect to the current Republican party, I think you are right.

 

But we could also talk about a moderate member of ISIS using the same language, and I don't think anybody would consider that person a moderate.

 

I also don't really consider the common core a left/right issue.  The teachers unions don't like the implementation (and the standardized tests that come with it) of the common core, and they are generally considered a left organization.  Liberals have historically rejected greater control of education from higher levels.  The teachers unions would rather deal with independent boards of ed and states.  Remember, NCLB came from a Bush.

 

It certainly puts him in a different boat than the rest of the Republican candidates, but I'm not sure it is a liberal position.

 

On a more general note, I think part of the issue is that people don't know where the middle is on many issues.

 

Most Americans (> 60% in most polls) don't think the wealthy pay enough taxes.

http://time.com/3717898/poll-tax-increase-rich/

https://www.aei.org/publication/a-new-york-times-poll-finds-americans-really-want-to-redistribute-wealth-how-should-the-gop-respond/

 

A large number of Americans and many Republicans support doing something about climate change and/or think it is at least a somewhat serious problem:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/31/us/politics/most-americans-support-government-action-on-climate-change-poll-finds.html?_r=0

http://grist.org/news/poll-shows-americans-are-starting-to-worry-about-climate-change-again/

 

A huge majority (~80%) of Americans think abortion should be legal under some situations even beyond rape and incest and almost certainly in general a majority during the first 3 months of pregnancy.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/saletan/2014/01/22/abortion_polls_2014_do_most_americans_think_most_abortions_should_be_illegal.html

http://www.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx

[tshile]

Mostly (imo) because we're still trying to fit a square peg in a round hole by trying to fulfill a fundamental human right (healthcare) while having the entire system designed to squeeze profit out of consumers the entire way.

ACA was a step in the right direction but did nothing to solve the basic problem.

 

Agreed.

 

I don't agree that healthcare is a fundamental human right, but that's just my person opinion.

 

But if you're going to have a system where the people providing the healthcare are required to provide it even if you can't pay for it, then you need to (as a society) agree that it is a fundamental right and treat it as such.

 

We've been trying to have it both ways for entirely too long. ACA is a step in the right direction, but it's likely not the fix.

 

Worst of all, ACA could be much better for us, but the execution of it has been piss poor at best. That falls squarely on the Obama admin. This was their brain child, they got it passed, and they screwed it up. Badly.

 

The republicans refusing to help isn't making things better, but this administration needs to own up to its role in screwing it up.

[twa]

Peter , ya are depending on generalities in those polls

 

the devil is in details

[88Comrade2000]

Anyone else watching the one- hour undercard debate; other than me?

[skinsmarydu]

I'm getting pizza from work for the main event. Anything interesting?

[88Comrade2000]

I'm getting pizza from work for the main event. Anything interesting?

Carly is winning this debate.  Lindsay Graham looks pathetic and he did have a question; where he didn't answer the question. He just filibustered all his views, in a vein attempt to get noticed.

 

This debate is still going on.  I thought it was only an hour but it is longer.  They are on plan parenthood/abortion now.

[Stadium-Armory]

 

It could also be that I, previously, was only really looking a couple of issues.

 

For a republican to come out and be ok with with:

common core

illegal immigrants (OK meaning proposing a solution other than round them, ship them back, build a wall, oh and make sure to say they're all mexicans)

gay marriage (again, OK meaning not saying if you're gay you're a pedophile and/or you're going to hell)

 

That seems pretty 'moderate republican' to me...

 

So I appreciate the additional information, but it doesn't really change my stand so much. But I must admit I haven't had time to read your links thoroughly (and probably wont for another week, skipping town here soon )

 

 

The party platform of the GOP specifies that marriage is "one man one woman" (on page 10). Moderate or not, the party does not support gay marriage. Better look elsewhere.

 

https://cdn.gop.com/docs/2012GOPPlatform.pdf