***2021-2022 NBA Season Thread***

[Mr. Sinister]

That's a good point. Found this article from October that lists the 101 foreign players in the league.

100 out of a possible 450 right? That's a significant percentage of the league and it certainly supports the argument that the size of the talent pool from which the NBA is selecting it's players has grown. I'm not sure anyone predicted how quickly the game would grow internationally.

Looking at that list though they seem to be extremely precise on their definition of foreign players, Kyrie Irving is on there. He was born in Australia but he grew up in the US.

Also Goran Dragic has a brother named Zoran? lol

LOL. I didnt know either until he was included in the trade that got us Goran

[Going Commando]

For the past two seasons, Wall and George have been the second and third besdt players in the East. The middle and bottom end of the league is better than it was in the 90s. But not the top end, and especially not the East. The top end teams are who you are competing against in the playoffs. Wall and George aren't close to as good as Miller, Ewing, Shaq, Hill, Hardaway, Price, LJ, Zo, etc. in the 90s and it goes without saying they don't hold a candle to the Pistons, Celtics, Sixers, or Bucks teams from the 80s.

The star players were better back then. Especially the bigs. They came into the league with better skills because AAU hadn't destroyed American youth basketball yet, and they also got to commit way more contact. You could get more from size and strength advantages. Karl Malone terrified people. Rik Smits actually was a good player whose size made him a difference maker. You had to be able to guard your man without much help from the team defensive scheme, another way in which stars got to shine.

LeBron is the closest anyone has come since Jordan, to matching Jordan's level of play and some of his achievements. But he's just not as good and he'll never match Jordan's individual and team achievements. No one will. Jordan set the bar way out of reach. It's boring to try and compare other players to hi .

[CrypticVillain]

I thought posted something, but I can't find it.

All you need to know is what Hakeem did in the 95 playoffs. It was brutal.

[Mr. Sinister]

I agree with McQueen. The MJ comparisons are dumb, which is why I was poking fun earlier. The man was 6-0 in the Finals, and had what... 5-6 Finals MVP's? It defies logic.

Bron is 2-3, soon to be 2-4. And he has 2011 to answer for, in terms of performance in the Finals. He overcame that and put everyone on his back as we won back to back, but '11 will always be there, and can't be erased.

[PeterMP]

For the past two seasons, Wall and George have been the second and third besdt players in the East. The middle and bottom end of the league is better than it was in the 90s. But not the top end, and especially not the East. The top end teams are who you are competing against in the playoffs. Wall and George aren't close to as good as Miller, Ewing, Shaq, Hill, Hardaway, Price, LJ, Zo, etc. in the 90s and it goes without saying they don't hold a candle to the Pistons, Celtics, Sixers, or Bucks teams from the 80s.

The star players were better back then. Especially the bigs. They came into the league with better skills because AAU hadn't destroyed American youth basketball yet, and they also got to commit way more contact. You could get more from size and strength advantages. Karl Malone terrified people. Rik Smits actually was a good player whose size made him a difference maker. You had to be able to guard your man without much help from the team defensive scheme, another way in which stars got to shine.

LeBron is the closest anyone has come since Jordan, to matching Jordan's level of play and some of his achievements. But he's just not as good and he'll never match Jordan's individual and team achievements. No one will. Jordan set the bar way out of reach. It's boring to try and compare other players to hi .

 

Certainly, you have to look at pre and post-cap.  Pre-cap there is no doubt that the top teams were deeper and better.  You couldn't afford to have Magic, Kareem, and Worthy on a team today with the Lakers bench.  After Magic, Kareem, and Worthy, there would essentially be no money left over for much of a bench.

 

But that cuts both ways in the context of the conversation.  If you look at the top of the teams that Lebron has played with, they might compare (but I don't really believe that because even late career Kareem was better than Bosh, and prime Worthy was better than Wade when he played with Lebron), but 4-8 don't.

 

In terms of bigs, I think the lack of quality low post play has more to do with changes in the rules than anything the AAU has done.

 

With the 3 pt. line and the rules regarding traveling, walking, double dribbling, and charges it is just much more of a perimeter game.

 

Today Malone wouldn't be nearly as effective player he was the way he played.  He'd be under pressure to become a 3 pt. shot and become a stretch 4.

 

**EDIT**

The other thing you have to take into account is the ability of players coming back from injuries.  Look at Derrick Rose, as much as he's fallen off from when he was healthy, 30 years ago, he's a non-factor as an NBA player after his injuries.  Realistically, he's still one of the better players for the Bulls, but 30 years ago, he's probably not even playing..

 

As much as Lebron has lost a rival, it isn't more than the impact of Bernard King's injuries in terms of the competition with Bird's Celtic and the bad boy Pistons.

 

If you put modern medicine in that era, Benard King remains much for of an effective player and increases the competition of the era.

 

One last thing, in this post, Steve is grouping players together that weren't really relevant together.

 

Shaq entered the league in 1992.  Mark Price is good in 1992 and 1993, but then in 1994 he gets injured, only plays in 48 games and is never the same again.  The next year he plays in 7 games (with the Bullets).

 

He goes on an plays some more full seasons after that, but he's not nearly the player he was and by 1998, he's out of the league.

 

In 20 years, I could say look how deep the East is.  The Heat, with Wade and Bosh for most of the season didn't even make the playoffs.  Both are HOF players and multi-championships, and they weren't good enough to even make the play offs.

 

In 20 years, somebody might buy that argument (and if Whiteside continues to put up numbers the argument even sounds better).

 

Today though nobody is buying that argument because we all know that Wade is a shadow of the player he was at his peak, and the Wade playing for the Heat now isn't a HOF caliber player.

Edited May 27, 2015 by PeterMP

[MattFancy]

RT @dsson Would the Wizards have beaten the Cavs? Maybe—probably—not. But they sure wouldn't have gotten swept either. #dcRising #NBAPlayoffs

 

I always love when people say stupid stuff like this. Is that supposed to make Wiz fans feel better?

 

"Guys, I know we lost to the Hawks, but at least we wouldn't been swept by the Cavs!"

[MattFancy]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2468658-an-oral-history-of-the-2003-2004-los-angeles-lakers-the-first-super-team#articles/2468658-an-oral-history-of-the-2003-2004-los-angeles-lakers-the-first-super-team

 

Really good read from B/R about the 03-04 Laker team

[Momma There Goes That Man]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2468658-an-oral-history-of-the-2003-2004-los-angeles-lakers-the-first-super-team#articles/2468658-an-oral-history-of-the-2003-2004-los-angeles-lakers-the-first-super-team

Really good read from B/R about the 03-04 Laker team

Good article, thanks for sharing. That team was a mess but I remember watching them a lot that year. They really could have been special but just had too much going on in addition to injuries to really hit their potential

[Going Commando]

I agree with McQueen. The MJ comparisons are dumb, which is why I was poking fun earlier. The man was 6-0 in the Finals, and had what... 5-6 Finals MVP's? It defies logic.

Bron is 2-3, soon to be 2-4. And he has 2011 to answer for, in terms of performance in the Finals. He overcame that and put everyone on his back as we won back to back, but '11 will always be there, and can't be erased.

 

Another one of his crazy accomplishments that just amazes me is the fact that he won 10 scoring titles.  I don't think one player ever gets that many again.  Kobe, Melo, Iverson, and Durant are probably the four greatest scorers since Jordan.  Four of the best scorers in league history really.  Iverson and Durant only have four scoring titles, Kobe only has two (hard to believe), and Melo only has one.  Jordan was arguably the greatest scorer in NBA history.

 

It really is crazy that Jordan is the GOAT.  A 6'6 shooting guard (and a lot of people think he was actually closer to 6'4).  It's hard to believe if you didn't watch him because this is a league whose history is dominated by bigs.  And he stood out as the league's dominant player in an era of big men.  He kind of redefined the SG position as having the potential to be the franchise building block.  I just don't think he saw himself as being limited by size.  David Robinson talked about how Jordan used to trash talk him and the other bigs, constantly going at them and telling them he was going to dunk on them.  I think that is so emblematic of him.  Like the NBA version of the Napoleonic complex.  He was such an ambitious player.

 

LeBron played at a Jordanian level from 2012-2013.  A solid two year peak where he came close to matching Jordan's greatest season, the '87-'88 season where he won MVP and DPOY.  That was the greatest season any perimeter player has ever had.  And LeBron's peak is really the only thing since that's come close, and I think that stretch of play was the closest we're going to see anyone come to winning both awards for a long time.  LeBron has already cemented himself firmly in the same pantheon with Magic and Bird, just under Jordan.

 

More generally, I think LeBron is the closest we'll see anyone come to Jordan for at least another generation.  I look at the generation of young-ish players in the league now, and the only one that punched in LeBron's class was Durant.  Who knows if he'll ever be the same?  Davis has the potential to be something special, but he's a true big and more of in the vein of KG, Duncan, and Russell than the Magic/LeBron/Jordan/Bird.

 

Curry, Harden, and Westbrook just put up great seasons but none came close to the level of play and impact that Durant and LeBron had during their peak seasons.  Or even the other great guards from just before them.  Wade's peak season was better and so was CP3's.  Ditto for Kobe.  And if you look beyond them, Wall, Irving, and Lillard aren't going to come close to them either.  And if you look even beyond them at the '13 and '14 draftees, there is no one that's even close to as good as Wall, Irving, and Lillard were as very young players.

 

I think we're hitting a talent bust in perimeter players.  I'm convinced Beal is going to be the best SG in the league in a couple of years.  It's not like he's been dominant early in his career, he certainly hasn't.  It's because there is no one else.  No other good SGs have come out in '12, '13, or '14.  That's such a depletion to a position that was already bone thin after Kobe, Wade, and Manu aged.

 

The league really suffered from the loss of Brandon Roy and Derrick Rose and it's going to MAJORLY suffer if Kevin Durant's career gets ruined by injury too.  Who are the future great wings?  It's looking like the league will return to being dominated by PFs and Cs.

 

Also wanted to say earlier when Major Harris dumped on Shawn Kemp as an example of the lack of quality of that era that I think it actually proved the opposite point.  During those peak seasons Shawn Kemp was like a better version of Blake Griffin and I don't think Kemp was more than the fifth or sixth best big man in the league at any point in his career.  Maybe even lower.  Certainly wasn't better than Hakeem, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Ewing, or Shaq.  Blake Griffin is one of the five to seven best players at any position in the league right now!

Edited May 27, 2015 by stevemcqueen1

[MattFancy]

Good article, thanks for sharing. That team was a mess but I remember watching them a lot that year. They really could have been special but just had too much going on in addition to injuries to really hit their potential

 

Agreed. That was my Sr year of HS. I was a huge Kobe fan back then, so I was really happy to see them add Malone and Payton. So much potential for that team, but between the Kobe trial, the Kobe/Shaq relationship, Phil's contract, injuries, and needing time for the new additions to gel, they just couldn't put it all together.

[PeterMP]

Also wanted to say earlier when Major Harris dumped on Shawn Kemp as an example of the lack of quality of that era that I think it actually proved the opposite point.  During those peak seasons Shawn Kemp was like a better version of Blake Griffin and I don't think Kemp was more than the fifth or sixth best big man in the league at any point in his career.  Maybe even lower.  Certainly wasn't better than Hakeem, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Ewing, or Shaq.  Blake Griffin is one of the five to seven best players at any position in the league right now!

 

1. Griffin is a better player than Shawn Kemp.  He's a more diverse player.

 

2. 1996 Shawn Kemp was a better player than 1996 Charles Barkley.  Barkley didn't even bother to play defense after the 2nd year in Phoenix.  And probably better than 1996 Patrick Ewing.

 

Peak Barkley was a lot better than peak Kemp, but Houston Rockets Barkley is not HOF player.

 

I also don't think Griffin is one of the top 7 player in the league right now.  Is Griffin really better than either of the Gasol's?

Edited May 27, 2015 by PeterMP

[CrypticVillain]

I also don't think Griffin is one of the top 7 player in the league right now.  Is Griffin really better than either of the Gasol's?

Yes. Especially in this year's playoffs.

[PeterMP]

Yes. Especially in this year's playoffs.

 

If Griffin plays like he did in the playoffs this year going forward, he'll clearly surpass the the Gasols, but over the course of his career, I don't think there's enough evidence to say that Griffin is clearly better than the Gasols.

Edited May 27, 2015 by PeterMP

[Momma There Goes That Man]

Come on, both Gasols? He's better than Pau right now no questions asked, because Pau is a shell of what he used to be.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Momma There Goes That Man

[Kosher Ham]

Having met Jordan, I can assure you he is at least 6'5". My father in law is 6'7". It is pretty amazing what he was able to do considering the league at that time though.

[PeterMP]

Come on, both Gasols? He's better than Pau right now no questions asked, because Pau is a shell of what he used to be.

 

Eh,  I'd tell you I think Pau, this year, was better than Marc.  He's still clearly the better shooter, and I think he's even stretched his range more this than in the past.

 

If I was rating only the Gasols, I'd put Pau first.  Not by a lot and last year would have been different, but this year, Pau was the better player.

Edited May 27, 2015 by PeterMP

[Going Commando]

1. Griffin is a better player than Shawn Kemp.  He's a more diverse player.

 

2. 1996 Shawn Kemp was a better player than 1996 Charles Barkley.  Barkley didn't even bother to play defense after the 2nd year in Phoenix.  And probably better than 1996 Patrick Ewing.

 

Peak Barkley was a lot better than peak Kemp, but Houston Rockets Barkley is not HOF player.

 

I also don't think Griffin is one of the top 7 player in the league right now.  Is Griffin really better than either of the Gasol's?

 

I disagree that Griffin is more diverse.  Griffin is a better jump shooter and passer than Kemp was.  But Kemp was a better interior scorer and FT shooter.  And as good a ball handler as Griffin is, Kemp was better.  And he was a better rebounder and much better defensive player.  Kemp was a legitimate impact defender whereas Griffin is merely competent.  I think all of that adds up to a better player than Griffin is.  But I also think Griffin hasn't reached his potential yet.  I could easily see him having a two or three year span in his late 20s where it all clicks for him and he becomes totally dominant and puts up a peak run similar to Barkley's.  I think it'll coincide with CP3's decline, and we've already seen flashes of what Griffin can do when he carries the Clippers after CP3 goes down with injury.

 

I was looking at Kemp during his five year peak from ages 23-27, not just the season they made the Finals.  He was pretty great over that span, but during it, I would probably put him below Barkley.  Barkley was significantly better over the front end of that window.  I'd say '95 to '96 and '96 to '97 were the only two seasons where Kemp was better, and Barkley was still really good in the '95 to '96.  Hell, even in Houston in '96-'97 Barkley still averaged 19 and 13.5.  That's a first or second team All NBA selection in today's league.

 

I think Griffin is better than both Gasols.  Definitely better than Pau.  Marc Gasol had a better season this year, but it was the best season of his career by far.  Griffin dealt with some injuries.  And Marc Gasol definitely wasn't better than Griffin last season, nor was he better in this postseason, where Griffin was one of the league's best performers.

 

Last year Griffin was the third best player in the league behind Durant and LeBron.  This year, he was behind Curry, Harden, LeBron, CP3, Gasol, Davis, and probably Westbrook even though he missed so much time.  I'd probably put Griffin at 8 for the season.  But again, it was an injury season, and moving forward, I think Griffin will be in that 3 to 7 range in any given year.  Higher than where Kemp was relative to the other great players in the league when he was in his prime.

Eh,  I'd tell you I think Pau, this year, was better than Marc.  He's still clearly the better shooter, and I think he's even stretched his range more this than in the past.

 

If I was rating only the Gasols, I'd put Pau first.  Not by a lot and last year would have been different, but this year, Pau was the better player.

 

I disagree about that.  Marc was a legitimate MVP candidate this year and led his team to more success against tougher competition.  I honestly think Marc's season was better than any single season Pau has had in his career.  Pau never really entered the MVP discussion at any point.  But on the whole of their careers, Pau is the better player.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

If Griffin plays like he did in the playoffs this year going forward, he'll clearly surpass the the Gasols, but over the course of his career, I don't think there's enough evidence to say that Griffin is clearly better than the Gasols.

Blake is about 5x better than Pau.

Pau puts up empty stats like no one's business

I think Gasol was top 2 in double doubles this season but I swear they were the quietest ones ever.

Like he definitely helped the Bulls offensively. He's still a deadly midrange shooter and when motivated, can be a killer down low.

But defensively he's awful and he's not a good rebounder no matter what the numbers say

Edited May 27, 2015 by BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I agree with McQueen. The MJ comparisons are dumb, which is why I was poking fun earlier. The man was 6-0 in the Finals, and had what... 5-6 Finals MVP's? It defies logic.

Bron is 2-3, soon to be 2-4. And he has 2011 to answer for, in terms of performance in the Finals. He overcame that and put everyone on his back as we won back to back, but '11 will always be there, and can't be erased.

 

And Larry Bird lost the '85 Finals (which was the first time the Celtics ever lost to the Lakers) in large part because he hurt his hand in a bar fight.

 

Strangely, that's not part of his legacy.

[DM72]

And Larry Bird lost the '85 Finals (which was the first time the Celtics ever lost to the Lakers) in large part because he hurt his hand in a bar fight.

 

Strangely, that's not part of his legacy.

They kept that hush hush because I sure didn't know anything about it.

[pjfootballer]

Having met Jordan, I can assure you he is at least 6'5". My father in law is 6'7". It is pretty amazing what he was able to do considering the league at that time though.

Add on that Jordsn rarely used the three. I mean he used it, but not as his primary scoring option like a lot of players do today.

[Kosher Ham]

Larry Bird has always been a homebody. I suspect that the story is true, but that is not why the Celtics lost.

 

I lived in Boston a few blocks from his old house...lots of stories about him.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

For the past two seasons, Wall and George have been the second and third besdt players in the East. The middle and bottom end of the league is better than it was in the 90s. But not the top end, and especially not the East. The top end teams are who you are competing against in the playoffs. Wall and George aren't close to as good as Miller, Ewing, Shaq, Hill, Hardaway, Price, LJ, Zo, etc. in the 90s and it goes without saying they don't hold a candle to the Pistons, Celtics, Sixers, or Bucks teams from the 80s.

The star players were better back then. Especially the bigs. They came into the league with better skills because AAU hadn't destroyed American youth basketball yet, and they also got to commit way more contact. You could get more from size and strength advantages. Karl Malone terrified people. Rik Smits actually was a good player whose size made him a difference maker. You had to be able to guard your man without much help from the team defensive scheme, another way in which stars got to shine.

LeBron is the closest anyone has come since Jordan, to matching Jordan's level of play and some of his achievements. But he's just not as good and he'll never match Jordan's individual and team achievements. No one will. Jordan set the bar way out of reach. It's boring to try and compare other players to hi .

 

I think Reggie Miller is the single most over-rated player in NBA history. The guy was an unbelievably good shooter but that Pacers offense was watching Mark Jackson dribble the ball for 20 seconds while Miller ran through 53 screens in order to get open.

 

As for bigs being better then....I guess. But the game has changed. Throwing the ball to Patrick Ewing in the post and letting him dribble six times before throwing up a fadeaway is what defenses want. Tom Thibodeau would have Ewing in the fetal position by halftime.

 

Is Mozgov a "classic big man?" No. But I don't think Patrick Ewing and his knees could anchor a modern NBA defense (which requires centers to roam out to the three point line on occasion and immediately help on every interior pass) and throw down dunks on a pick and roll like Mozgov can.

 

 

 

On the Bird bar fight.....

 

Can you imagine if this happened today with Lebron? Good Lord.

 

 

http://articles.latimes.com/1985-07-31/sports/sp-5397_1_larry-bird

 

http://articles.latimes.com/1985-11-09/sports/sp-3703_1_bouncer

Edited May 27, 2015 by Lombardi's_kid_brother

[Kosher Ham]

Add on that Jordsn rarely used the three. I mean he used it, but not as his primary scoring option like a lot of players do today.

 

Besides LeBron and Wilkins...Jordan was the best attacking the paint from the perimeter. He didn't get that jumper working on the regular until a little later in his career. I give Jordan his props, he was a student throughout his career. It rewarded him well.

[Sticksboi05]

I am certainly not taking anything away from Jordan's greatness. He was phenomenal. I used to watch all of his games even as a Lakers fan when I was in my early years.

 

I simply feel that LeBron is on that level of greatness, if not on the next.

I feel fortunate to have been able to witness both of their careers.

 

I appreciate great basketball, and great players ( which both of them proved that they are) . The debate is pretty close.

 

 

I think it just took LeBron a bit longer to develop "it" as far as championships are concerned. That 2010 Finals is a huge scar on his career since the Heat had no business losing to Dallas. 2007 is irrelevant, he had a team of average players vs. a semi-dynasty team in San Antonio. 

 

I already think LeBron is top 10 ever and he's been there for a couple years. I think he finishes top 2-3 depending on his Finals performances from here on out. 

 

Whether or not he is considered better than MJ - whatever.  I'm just happy we all finally realize how much better he is than Kobe. Not sure how a guy who has never led the league in PER or win shares is considered a candidate for best ever but nevertheless.