***2021-2022 NBA Season Thread***

[Renegade7]

36 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

Because they don’t.

 

Curry is leading the best offense of all time, and we all know that they are unbeatable when is leading it, yet he doesn’t average more than 7 assists a game. We also accept he is the best point guard in the current NBA despite many players averaging more assists.

 

Bob Knight called him the greatest passer he ever saw, but his playmaking dominance isn’t about monopolizing the ball.

 

The point guard position is evolving, and he is the reason why. You have to accept that, instead of putting him in a box.

And the Warriors would be a worse team because of that. (Also, eventually people will have to realize that Steph Curry is the system, and not the other way around)

 

 

 

I see... so you think Curry is a better passer then Wall, or that it doesn't matter? Bob Knight also said in 2016 he doesn't watch the NBA... so...

 

I won't support putting a premium on scoring over assists by the PG, that is a dangerous direction for a league that for the most part doesn't run a system that allows Curry to be that.  It's hard for me to say how much better a team the Wizards would be with Curry instead, even if you consider him the best PG.  We'd be asking him to do something he isn't asked to do in an offense that forgets how to tie it shoes when its too close and devolves into iso ball. 

 

The 2014 Spurs set the Heatles on fire without a single player averaging more then 18 points per game in the regular season or playoffs, including their PG.  You'd really rather PGs try to be Curry then Wall?

35 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

Assist =/= passing ability

Then how do you measure it outside the eye test then?  I heard there's a metric for would-be assists that accounts for wide open missed shots, but feel that's a reach.

[Going Commando]

43 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

I will say this: the one thing that I believe translates across any era is size.

 

Also strength, speed, leaping ability, hand-eye coordination, toughness, competitiveness, and vision/IQ.

Edited June 5, 2018 by stevemcqueen1

[PeterMP]

1 hour ago, justice98 said:

 

But the comparison always tends to be making older players adjust to the present, vs vice versa.  What would Steph be in 1985 where the league average for 3pt attempts was......3. He makes three 3s in a quarter, they were only attempting 3 as a team.  

 

As an aside, fun fact and not really germane to anything, Bird's exploits in the 3pt contest are well documented, but for his career, he averaged less than 2 attempts per game (1.9 3PA to be exact).  Even when he went crazy as 3pt shooting picked up, it was only 3 3PA.

 

The league average for 3 point shooting in 1985 was also only 28.2%.  They didn't shoot many 3's because many players were not very good at.  Coaches didn't let players shoot 3's because they tended to miss a lot, which meant you lost the game.

 

Curry would have been the elite 3 point shooter of the era.  They also took a lot of long 2's, and he's very good at that too.  Just like now, he'd be an elite dribbler and below the rim finisher with plus court vision.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

We are comparing stats from two completely different eras of basketball.  When I think about which player is the best at [insert position here], I think the better questions to ask are:

 

1.  How would players A & B perform in each era under each rule set?

2.  When placed in both eras/rule sets, could you build a team around them?

3.  Given each player's awards/accolades (League MVP, all-star, scoring leader, etc.), would they be able to achieve those in the other era?

 

I'll keep my answers short and sweet.  

1.  Both could perform in each era, no doubt.  But I think Curry would have a more difficult time and less success in Magics era where as Magic would be fine given the rules today and would benefit more from that.

 

2.  I think you could build a team around Magic in both eras.  I do not think you could build a team around Curry in Magic's era.

 

3.  I'll keep it at just MVPs and All-Stars.  I think Curry in Magic's era would not win an MVP, but would definitely be an all-star.  I think it might be possible for Magic to win an MVP in today's era, or be in the running for it along with being an all-star.

 

Not taking away from Curry by any means, I just think Magics game would translate better into this era of basketball and Curry's game would not translate as well into Magic's era.  

 

Edited June 5, 2018 by Dont Taze Me Bro

[PeterMP]

1 hour ago, Hersh said:

 

Bird was forced to be more of a shooter cause he couldn't dominate in the paint in that era. 

 

I think other aspects get overlooked too aside from being on the court. Training, recovery, nutrition, travel, scheduling, etc are all way more advanced and sophisticated now. 

 

Bird was a great post player for a SF.

[The Evil Genius]

This still hasn't gotten old.

 

?

 

[PeterMP]

2 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

 

I own three houses in the Wizards thread, what are you talking about saying Wall has to get all the assist numbers?  We all agree in there that even if he gets a solid chunk, we do best when we get over 30+ assists per game regardless, everybody in there knows that, everybody in there wants that.  Don't talk about what we don't understand when every time you come in there with a disclaimer about how you don't watch the team as much as we do.  Wall doesn't just initiate the offense, he can make those sportscenter passes even when the play breaks down, he's the best passer on the team no matter the situation.

 

Can Curry initiate the offense and make those passes better then Magic?  Saying he can if he wanted to is moving the goal post, he doesn't.

 

My point wasn't that you don't understand.  My point was to make reference to the thread where there were comments that WALL doesn't understand (the difference between ball movement and making an assist (though, given this post, I'm not sure that you understand either)).

 

When the play breaks down it is best if every player on the team can make a play.  I'm not sure why it would be an advantage to have a PG vs. a C that can make a play when the play breaks down.  And Curry can absolutely make plays when the play breaks down.  The fact that he tends to make plays by scoring himself rather than passing to somebody else shouldn't be counted against him with respect to playing PG.  Are you really arguing that you don't want a PG that can score when the play breaks down?

 

Yes, Curry could have made those passes.  Kareem was a successful low post player with and without Magic.  There is no reason to think that Curry would have had issues with that.  Other PGs had no problem delivering the ball into the post to Kareem  Same for making the pass into Worthy the high post.  He does plenty of that sort of thing with KD now.  Any slight difference in the ability of Curry to make those passes vs. Magic is easily offset by Curry's ability to score.

 

Curry runs one of the most efficient, proficient, complex, ball moving offenses in the history of the NBA and scores a lot on his own.  To punish him or doubt his ability to play PG (when he clearly does and does it well) because he a lot of times he doesn't make the pass that directly results in the basket or scores himself is absurd.

Edited June 5, 2018 by PeterMP

[PeterMP]

10 minutes ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

We are comparing stats from two completely different eras of basketball.  When I think about which player is the best at [insert position here], I think the better questions to ask are:

 

1.  How would players A & B perform in each era under each rule set?

2.  When placed in both eras/rule sets, could you build a team around them?

3.  Given each player's awards/accolades (League MVP, all-star, scoring leader, etc.), would they be able to achieve those in the other era?

 

I'll keep my answers short and sweet.  

1.  Both could perform in each era, no doubt.  But I think Curry would have a more difficult time and less success in Magics era where as Magic would be fine given the rules today and would benefit more from that.

 

2.  I think you could build a team around Magic in both eras.  I do not think you could build a team around Curry in Magic's era.

 

3.  I'll keep it at just MVPs and All-Stars.  I think Curry in Magic's era would not win an MVP, but would definitely be an all-star.  I think it might be possible for Magic to win an MVP in today's era, or be in the running for it along with being an all-star.

 

Not taking away from Curry by any means, I just think Magics game would translate better into this era of basketball and Curry's game would not translate as well into Magic's era.  

 

 

Why?  Do you really think that Magic is better than Lebron and KD?

 

Are you planning on them giving an MVP to a guy that isn't the best player in the league?

 

In 1985, the Isiah Thomas made the all star team in the East.  Isiah Thomas didn't do anything better than Curry.

 

(The West only appears to have taken Magic.  They have a couple of guys I guess that might have played a lot of point, but are listed SG (Rolando Blackman and Alvin Roberson.  Roberson's an interesting player because he was an elite defensive player (and I suspect based on my recollection that he was the other PG) and I think in general people under rate defense, but there is no way that Curry wouldn't be better than the like Rolando Blackman in that era.  Please, tell me why you think that Rolando Blackman was a better player than Curry.)

[Renegade7]

5 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

My point wasn't that you don't understand.  My point was to make reference to the thread where there were comments that WALL doesn't understand (the difference between ball movement and making an assist (though, given this post, I'm not sure that you understand either)).

 

When the play breaks down it is best if every player on the team can make a play.  I'm not sure why it would be an advantage to have a PG vs. a C that can make a play when the play breaks down.  And Curry can absolutely make plays when the play breaks down.  The fact that he tends to make plays by scoring himself rather than passing to somebody else shouldn't be counted against him with respect to playing PG.  Are you really arguing that you don't want a PG that can score when the play breaks down?

 

Yes, Curry could have made those passes.  Kareem was a successful low post player with and without Magic.  There is no reason to think that Curry would have had issues with that.  Other PGs had no problem delivering the ball into the post to Kareem  Same for making the pass into Worthy the high post.  He does plenty of that sort of thing with KD now.  Any slight difference in the ability of Curry to make those passes vs. Magic is easily offset by Curry's ability to score.

 

Curry runs one of the most efficient, proficient, complex, ball moving offenses in the history of the NBA and scores a lot on his own.  To punish him or doubt his ability to play PG (when he clearly does and does it well) because he a lot of times he doesn't make the pass that directly results in the basket is absurd.

 

Wall does understand the difference between ball movement and assists because he brings it up when we have games where it seems like everything dies once the ball is out his hand (bad shot, iso, turnover, etc). I get that, I complain about it a lot when I say stuff like #NobodyEats.

 

Curry can make plays when the play breaks down, that's not in question.  You're being facetious asking me if I don't want a PG that can score themselves if they have to to help make your point.  I'll be honest, though, when I watch the Warriors, it feels like the ball is out Curry's hands so quickly, how much credit is he really getting for running that offense?  Wall doesn't have a dominant big man like Kareem to just feed easy numbers to, so not really sure why you're bringing that up.  This isn't about punishing Curry, are we comparing Curry to other PGs or changing what a PG is and comparing other PGs to him? We're talking about taking a position that's not expected to be a primary scoring threat and saying every other PG that doesn't do that isn't on Curry's level, that just feels ass backwards to me. 

 

This goes back to same question I asked Benning, do we want PGs to try more to be like Curry or Wall?

[Bozo the kKklown]

41 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

I see... so you think Curry is a better passer then Wall, or that it doesn't matter? Bob Knight also said in 2016 he doesn't watch the NBA... so...

I thought I amended it, but Knight said the best passer he ever saw in college basketball.

 

And yes, Curry is a better passer than Wall.

 

41 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

I won't support putting a premium on scoring over assists by the PG, that is a dangerous direction for a league that for the most part doesn't run a system that allows Curry to be that.  It's hard for me to say how much better a team the Wizards would be with Curry instead, even if you consider him the best PG.  We'd be asking him to do something he isn't asked to do in an offense that forgets how to tie it shoes when its too close and devolves into iso ball. 

That is stupid. I am sorry. You score to win the game in basketball. Its that simple. That is the objective. 

 

Having someone like Curry who can create without the ball, create with the ball, and rip the heart out of a team by going on a scoring binge is way better than the Mark Jackson/John Stockton style of point guard. And I don't say that to put Curry in the heistbox, gunner point guard type. He is efficient with his. 

 

And when Curry ran a system, similar to Wall's in Golden State, he was 24/8. He just better fam, you have to accept this.

 

41 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Then how do you measure it outside the eye test then?  I heard there's a metric for would-be assists that accounts for wide open missed shots, but feel that's a reach.

There is a metric for secondary assists, and Curry is usually either hte league leader or among the leaders in it.

 

You can also measure passing ability by the type of passes players can do. Entry passes to the post, passes to cutters, drive and kicks, etc.

 

I don't care what assist says, Steph Curry is a MUCH better passer than Westbrook and so are a bunch of NBA players.

34 minutes ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

We are comparing stats from two completely different eras of basketball.  When I think about which player is the best at [insert position here], I think the better questions to ask are:

 

1.  How would players A & B perform in each era under each rule set?

2.  When placed in both eras/rule sets, could you build a team around them?

3.  Given each player's awards/accolades (League MVP, all-star, scoring leader, etc.), would they be able to achieve those in the other era?

 

I'll keep my answers short and sweet.  

1.  Both could perform in each era, no doubt.  But I think Curry would have a more difficult time and less success in Magics era where as Magic would be fine given the rules today and would benefit more from that.

 

2.  I think you could build a team around Magic in both eras.  I do not think you could build a team around Curry in Magic's era.

 

3.  I'll keep it at just MVPs and All-Stars.  I think Curry in Magic's era would not win an MVP, but would definitely be an all-star.  I think it might be possible for Magic to win an MVP in today's era, or be in the running for it along with being an all-star.

 

Not taking away from Curry by any means, I just think Magics game would translate better into this era of basketball and Curry's game would not translate as well into Magic's era.  

 

 

Steph Curry walking on to the court and pulling up and nailing open 3-pointers from 30 feet (because NBA defenders in the 80s never extended that far) would have been devastating back then.

 

Also the NBA was not that physical in the 1980s. There was a lot of freedom of movement.

 

Even in the 90s, Reggie Miller was able to be an elite scorer back then.

 

(Also, Magic's inability to go left and the game being much slower paced in the 90s and early aughts may hurt his numbers)

 

Also, in 30 years people will call this the LeBron era, yet Curry won the only unanimous MVP ever along with another. You have to slow down and think about this and stop reacting off nostalgia and emotion.

Edited June 5, 2018 by BenningRoadSkin

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

Just now, PeterMP said:

 

Why?  Do you really think that Magic is better than Lebron and KD?

 

Are you planning on them giving an MVP to a guy that isn't the best player in the league?

 

In 1985, the Isiah Thomas made the all star team in the East.  Isiah Thomas didn't do anything better than Curry.

 

(The West only appears to have taken Magic.  They have a couple of guys I guess that might have played a lot of point, but are listed SG (Rolando Blackman and Alvin Roberson.  Roberson's an interesting player because he was an elite defensive player (and I suspect based on my recollection that he was the other PG) and I think in general people under rate defense, but there is no way that Curry wouldn't be better than the like Rolando Blackman in that era.  Please, tell me why you think that Rolando Blackman was a better player than Curry.)

 

Read what I said.......I said I think it might be possible for him to win an MVP in today's era or be in the running.  If Steve Nash won it two years in a row, Magic could definitely win one or be in the conversation.    I also said I'm keeping my answers short and sweet, I just picked out the MVP and being an all-star.  

 

I'm not even going to entertain answering questions where you implied that I think X player is better than Curry, when I never even mentioned anything about anyone other than Magic and Curry.  Isiah Thomas this and Rolando Blackman that......   

[Renegade7]

28 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

I thought I amended it, but Knight said the best passer he ever saw in college basketball.

 

And yes, Curry is a better passer than Wall.

 

We can't talk about comparing the two if you honestly believe that. I'll give you benefit of the doubt you either misread or mistyped that Knight quote, that was too weird seeing you say that.

 

Quote

That is stupid. I am sorry. You score to win the game in basketball. Its that simple. That is the objective. 

 

Having someone like Curry who can create without the ball, create with the ball, and rip the heart out of a team by going on a scoring binge is way better than the Mark Jackson/John Stockton style of point guard. And I don't say that to put Curry in the heistbox, gunner point guard type. He is efficient with his. 

 

And when Curry ran a system, similar to Wall's in Golden State, he was 24/8. He just better fam, you have to accept this.

 

I see you completely left out my line about the Spurs to help make your point.  Sure, assists don't go on the scoreboard, Wall was 23/10 last year and typically averages more in the playoffs.  Is Curry the better scorer?  Definitely.  Is Curry the better player, I won't argue against that.  Is Curry the better PG?  No.  You have 2 out of 3, you gotta have everything, why?

 

Quote

There is a metric for secondary assists, and Curry is usually either hte league leader or among the leaders in it.

 

You can also measure passing ability by the type of passes players can do. Entry passes to the post, passes to cutters, drive and kicks, etc.

 

I don't care what assist says, Steph Curry is a MUCH better passer than Westbrook and so is a bunch of NBA players.

 

If I'm reading that page correctly on nba.com, Beal is 2nd in secondary assists.  I officially hate that stat:

 

https://stats.nba.com/players/passing/?sort=SECONDARY_AST&dir=1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular Season

 

Making sure we're on the same page, those numbers are pretty negligible and Wall/Curry go back and forth a lot in terms of who has more over the last 5 years.  My initial question is would this stat be different if either played in the others offense?  I don't think John is even on the list this year because of games he missed, but he has the 2nd highest potential assists in this years playoffs.  What would his numbers be if he had KD and Klay on his team?  Yes, I just said Klay is better then Beal, I can live with that one.

 

I may have to tap out of this if you're insisting Curry is a better passer then Wall.  I've stated what I don't want from future PGs while respecting what Curry HAS brought to the game.  You need to accept that a league full of PGs trying to be Curry where most teams don't run an offense that allows that is a bad idea.  We really gonna go from "these guys are chucking too many threes", to doubling down?  There will be very few if any PGs that can score like Curry, you sound like you're saying they should try anyway.

Edited June 5, 2018 by Renegade7

[PeterMP]

24 minutes ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

Read what I said.......I said I think it might be possible for him to win an MVP in today's era or be in the running.  If Steve Nash won it two years in a row, Magic could definitely win one or be in the conversation.    I also said I'm keeping my answers short and sweet, I just picked out the MVP and being an all-star.  

 

I'm not even going to entertain answering questions where you implied that I think X player is better than Curry, when I never even mentioned anything about anyone other than Magic and Curry.  Isiah Thomas this and Rolando Blackman that......   

 

I'm comparing Curry to all stars of that era.  Curry is clearly an all star in that era.  It isn't even close.  You said, you though he would be.

 

Nash was an elite 3 point shooter.  Magic wasn't.  Nash was Harden.  Magic never shot or finished like that.

 

Why do you think that Magic could win an MVP?

Edited June 5, 2018 by PeterMP

[CRobi21]

NBA Finals strategy = Summer League strategy

 

 

[PeterMP]

30 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Wall does understand the difference between ball movement and assists because he brings it up when we have games where it seems like everything dies once the ball is out his hand (bad shot, iso, turnover, etc). I get that, I complain about it a lot when I say stuff like #NobodyEats.

 

Curry can make plays when the play breaks down, that's not in question.  You're being facetious asking me if I don't want a PG that can score themselves if they have to to help make your point.  I'll be honest, though, when I watch the Warriors, it feels like the ball is out Curry's hands so quickly, how much credit is he really getting for running that offense?  Wall doesn't have a dominant big man like Kareem to just feed easy numbers to, so not really sure why you're bringing that up.  This isn't about punishing Curry, are we comparing Curry to other PGs or changing what a PG is and comparing other PGs to him? We're talking about taking a position that's not expected to be a primary scoring threat and saying every other PG that doesn't do that isn't on Curry's level, that just feels ass backwards to me. 

 

This goes back to same question I asked Benning, do we want PGs to try more to be like Curry or Wall?

 

We want PGs that result in the team scoring baskets and prevent the team from scoring at the other end so that your team ends up with more points than the other team.  That is the objective of the game.  To score more points than the other team. (and realistically that's what we want in very position). 

 

There is no one way to do that.  Now with respect to the PG, the important thing then is to be able to get the ball up the floor (against possible pressure) and making a good initial decision with the ball to initiate the offense.  Curry is very good at that and that's what he does so he is a PG.

 

Your argument boils down because Curry doesn't do it in  a way that other people score directly after he passed the ball, he's not a good PG.  That's punishing him for being a good scorer and playing in an offense that emphasizes ball movement.

 

My point about Kareem was with respect to could Curry make the passes to initiate the Lakers offense.  Yes, he could make the pass into the post to Kareem.

[Bozo the kKklown]

8 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

We can't talk about comparing the two if you honestly believe that. I'll give you benefit of the doubt you either misread or mistyped that Knight quote, that was too weird seeing you say that.

I do honestly believe that. You can disagree or state otherwise, but Curry is by far the best point guard in the game and is the best passer in the game at the point guard position.

 

10 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

I see you completely left out my line about the Spurs to help make your point.  Sure, assists don't go on the scoreboard, Wall was 23/10 last year and typically averages more in the playoffs.  Is Curry the better scorer?  Definitely.  Is Curry the better player, I won't argue against that.  Is Curry the better PG?  No.  You have 2 out of 3, you gotta have everything, why?

I left it out because it was irrelevant. No Spurs player averaged more than 5 assist a game that playoffs either. Did that mean something important?

 

And yes, Curry is the best point guard in the NBA. This isnt even a debate. 

 

13 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

If I'm reading that page correctly on nba.com, Beal is 2nd in secondary assists.  I officially hate that stat:

 

https://stats.nba.com/players/passing/?sort=SECONDARY_AST&dir=1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular Season

 

Making sure we're on the same page, those numbers are pretty negligible and Wall/Curry go back and forth a lot in terms of who has more over the last 5 years.  My initial question is would this stat be different if either played in the others offense?  I don't think John is even on the list this year because of games he missed, but he has the 2nd highest potential assists in this years playoffs.  What would his numbers be if he had KD and Klay on his team?  Yes, I just said Klay is better then Beal, I can live with that one.

 

I may have to tap out of this if you're insisting Curry is a better passer then Wall.  I've stated what I don't want from future PGs while respecting what Curry HAS brought to the game.  You need to accept that a league full of PGs trying to be Curry where most teams don't run an offense that allows that is a bad idea.  We really gonna go from "these guys are chucking too many threes", to doubling down?  There will be very few if any PGs that can score like Curry, you sound like you're saying they should try anyway.

 Beal's playmaking has improved a lot this year.

 

And Curry just is a better passer. And I am not mentioning chucking 3s, but being a great scorer. Thats different.

[Renegade7]

1 minute ago, PeterMP said:

There is no one way to do that.  Now with respect to the PG, the important thing then is to be able to get the ball up the floor (against possible pressure) and making a good initial decision with the ball to initiate the offense.  Curry is very good at that and that's what he does so he is a PG.

 

That makes sense.  LeBron does that, but he's not a PG, right?

 

1 minute ago, PeterMP said:

 

Your argument boils down because Curry doesn't do it in  a way that other people score directly after he passed the ball, he's not a good PG.  That's punishing him for being a good scorer and playing in an offense that emphasizes ball movement.

 

My point about Kareem was with respect to could Curry make the passes to initiate the Lakers offense.  Yes, he could make the pass into the post to Kareem.

 

I never said he wasn't a good PG, I said he shouldn't be considered the best because of his scoring ability surpassing that of other PGs.  I say that because its a bad precedent talking about things like Pure PGs to make exceptions for guys like Rose when he was going off or what Kyrie is.  If we're were going to have Curry in that discussion based on the evolving definition of what PG is in the 21st century, I want guys like Rose and Kyrie kicked out.

[PeterMP]

7 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

That makes sense.  LeBron does that, but he's not a PG, right?

 

 

I never said he wasn't a good PG, I said he shouldn't be considered the best because of his scoring ability surpassing that of other PGs.  I say that because its a bad precedent talking about things like Pure PGs to make exceptions for guys like Rose when he was going off or what Kyrie is.  If we're were going to have Curry in that discussion based on the evolving definition of what PG is in the 21st century, I want guys like Rose and Kyrie kicked out.

 

Most people recognize that Lebron is a (rare) exception.  Also, Lebron's normal default defensive assignment is not to defend the other teams PG.  So we can think about the PG in terms of defensive and offensive assignments.  Lebron is the functional PG for the Cavs offense, but not for their defense.

 

Curry's normal default defensive assignment on GS is the other team's PG so he is the functional PG for both the GS offense and defense.

 

I don't think you'd get a lot of criticism or complaints if you stated that Lebron was the PG for the Cav's offense.

 

There have always been PGs that were more scores than passers.

Edited June 5, 2018 by PeterMP

[Renegade7]

2 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

I do honestly believe that. You can disagree or state otherwise, but Curry is by far the best point guard in the game and is the best passer in the game at the point guard position.

 

I left it out because it was irrelevant. No Spurs player averaged more than 5 assist a game that playoffs either. Did that mean something important?

 

We're going to have to agree to disagree on the better passer thing.  The Spurs thing does matter, teams like that will never happen again if go in the direction you are talking about with what a PG should be.

 

2 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

And yes, Curry is the best point guard in the NBA. This isnt even a debate. 

 

 Beal's playmaking has improved a lot this year.

 

And Curry just is a better passer. And I am not mentioning chucking 3s, but being a great scorer. Thats different.

 

Wall is averaging more points per game in the playoffs this year then Curry, Wall can score in the playoffs, sometimes he's downright unstoppable.  What you want makes sense (more scoring from PGs then chucking 3s), what will happen is PGs averaging double digit 3pt attempts per game.  This is a big picture point, I'm concerned of future PGs trying to be Curry vs trying to be Wall.

[justice98]

1 hour ago, PeterMP said:

 

The league average for 3 point shooting in 1985 was also only 28.2%.  They didn't shoot many 3's because many players were not very good at.  Coaches didn't let players shoot 3's because they tended to miss a lot, which meant you lost the game.

 

Curry would have been the elite 3 point shooter of the era.  They also took a lot of long 2's, and he's very good at that too.  Just like now, he'd be an elite dribbler and below the rim finisher with plus court vision.

 

Otto Porter would be in the HoF if he could get dropped into 1985 and shoot more than the league average all by himself.  Every halfway decent 3pt shooter would be elite if you dropped them in the 80s and said "shoot as many 3s as you do now".  

 

I just think if you dropped a current player into a past era, they would have to play according to the style of the day, not vice versa.  The league wouldnt adapt to him, he would adapt to the league.  I dont think KC Jones would be out there imploring Steph to shoot 700-800 threes when that's how the game was played.

 

All theoretical, of course. lol

 

Maybe there might be one innovative coach that would know Steph was 30 years ahead of his time, but I suspect most coaches would wonder what the hell he was doing pulling up from 30 ft.  I mean, Phil Jackson is a guy of that era and he doesn't understand all this 3pt shooting.  There'd be a lot of "do it how I was taught basketball should be played" kinda stuff.

Edited June 5, 2018 by justice98

[Renegade7]

8 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

There have always been PGs that were more scores than passers.

 

I believe it, where do they fall on that list?

[Destino]

Ball dominant pass first point guards haven't won many titles in a long time though.  System offenses have dominated lately.  The last four dominant teams are the Bull triangle (6), Lakers triangle (5), Spurs amorphous motion offense (5), and Warriors rhythm and flow (2, soon to be 3).  The Celtics won their recent title before Rondo became a star point guard.  The last big name pass first point guard to win a title was Jason Kidd, but he did it as a past his prime player for the Mavs.  

 

Lebron is sort of an exception, he run the point but he's notably not a guard.  He's won three titles where he dominated the ball and initiated most of the offense.  Most teams that do that seem to fall short.  

[PeterMP]

19 minutes ago, justice98 said:

 

Otto Porter would be in the HoF if he could get dropped into 1985 and shoot more than the league average all by himself.  Every halfway decent 3pt shooter would be elite if you dropped them in the 80s and said "shoot as many 3s as you do now".  

 

I just think if you dropped a current player into a past era, they would have to play according to the style of the day, and vice versa.  The league wouldnt adapt to him, he would adapt to the league.  I dont think KC Jones would be out there imploring Steph to shoot 700-800 threes when that's how the game was played.

 

All theoretical, of course. lol

 

First, if you dropped everybody in the NBA today into 1985, realistically, their 3 point shooting % would go down.  The ability to do things with the ball that count as a dribble in terms of stopping, changing direction, and stepping back has made it much easier to get shots off then it was.  (I've said this multiple times int this thread with respect to bringing back post play).  The other thing is because of the illegal defense rules made it harder to double in the post people were actually less likely to leave the shooters.   And his percentage would drop even further.

 

Especially as Porter isn't particularly good scorer with a tight defender (only 47% with eFG% of 47%) vs. Curry at 57% and 57.9%, I suspect his ability to score would be severely hampered.

 

Just like nobody considers Porter an elite player now, I don't think anybody  would consider Porter an elite player then.  I don't think he'd even be an elite shooter.

 

So, no I don't think Otto Porter would be a HOF player if you dropped in 1985.

 

Just like he isn't elite now, he wouldn't be elite then. 

16 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

I believe it, where do they fall on that list?

What list?

8 minutes ago, Destino said:

Ball dominant pass first point guards haven't won many titles in a long time though.  System offenses have dominated lately.  The last four dominant teams are the Bull triangle (6), Lakers triangle (5), Spurs amorphous motion offense (5), and Warriors rhythm and flow (2, soon to be 3).  The Celtics won their recent title before Rondo became a star point guard.  The last big name pass first point guard to win a title was Jason Kidd, but he did it as a past his prime player for the Mavs.  

 

Lebron is sort of an exception, he run the point but he's notably not a guard.  He's won three titles where he dominated the ball and initiated most of the offense.  Most teams that do that seem to fall short.  

 

That's because changes in rule (interpretations) has shifted the league to a focus on scoring from perimeter players.

Edited June 5, 2018 by PeterMP

[Mr. Sinister]

15 minutes ago, justice98 said:

Maybe there might be one innovative coach that would know Steph was 30 years ahead of his time, but I suspect most coaches would wonder what the hell he was doing pulling up from 30 ft.  I mean, Phil Jackson is a guy of that era and he doesn't understand all this 3pt shooting.  There'd be a lot of "do it how I was taught basketball should be played" kinda stuff.

 

Oh I'm sure that would've been just another day in the ABA. Thankfully the merger saved the NBA from becoming totem pole assholed like the NFL.

[Chew]