Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Maybe it's because Irish people aren't whiners? This is going down a fascinating path. Please expand on your "Native Americans are whiners" argument. What if a group of Irish liberals in college formed a group in five years to change the name and logo of the Celtics because they are offended? Would you side for their cause or simply say "they are the vast minority, so they shouldn't get their way"? I would find that to be silly, because Celts are not a historically oppressed racial minority in this country nor do they, in fact, exist any longer. The statue of limitations on appropriating dead cultures is probably around 500 years, give or take a few decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 I ask those that want to change it, if it's changed, then what? What's next? Will this be the beginning of a group effort in ACTUALLY helping the Native American community? Or is this just a fad, like most of these issues, where you'll feel a sense of false self accomplishment and be able to sleep better at night? I'm curious. I sincerely hope it's the former. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
War Paint Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 The Leprechaun is a mythological creature. A Native American is an actual human being. The Leprechaun looks like, well, a leprechaun, I suppose. Having not see a leprechaun I can't actually attest to that. Chief Wahoo looks like the Me Heap Big Chief stereotype of a Native American that was extremely common in the pop culture of the 30s, 40s, and 50s. It also steals a lot of the imagery from black charicatures. (The Huge Smile). It's also straight up Red Dye #5 red. The Fighting Irish nickname was chosen by Irish American students attending a university run by Irish-born or Irish American priests in response -in part - to some of the Anti-Catholic bigotry their football team was facing. There is no real issue of cultural appropriation unless you find St. Patricks Day to be really offensive. The leprechaun is used as an Irish stereotype. Also, a Native American helped design our Redskin logo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gizmo 3squire Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 If these so called protesters of the name are actually concerned for the well being of the Native Americans (which 98% aren't) they'll use this same drive and tenacity to go to these reservations and help out any way they can, and I mean REALLY help out. I've donated my time and my father has been to a few reservations and took part in school programs in New Mexico on one of his mission trips. They are really, really struggling out there and are in need of serious assistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justice98 Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Maybe it's because Irish people aren't whiners? What if a group of Irish liberals in college formed a group in five years to change the name and logo of the Celtics because they are offended? Would you side for their cause or simply say "they are the vast minority, so they shouldn't get their way"? Here's the hard cold facts about the Redskins name. The data does NOT support a name change. Those advocating for the name change haven't quoted one reliable poll that support their view. They don't because they can't. Polls are the end all/be all now? When did that happen? There was just a long list here of all those NA groups that opposed the name. Not a comprehensive list surely. I'm guessing the polling that encompasses the "data" somehow missed them and their constituency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GibbsFactor Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 I ask those that want to change it, if it's changed, then what? What's next? Will this be the beginning of a group effort in ACTUALLY helping the Native American community? Or is this just a fad, like most of these issues, where you'll feel a sense of false self accomplishment and be able to sleep better at night? I'm curious. I don't think anyone wants it changed. I see this in groups: Fans that love the team but acknowledge the word is sketchy and should probably be changed. Fans that love the team, love the name but are just sick of this controversy and want to move on. Fans that love the team, love the name, and are willing to sacrifice the name but keep the colors/logo Fans that love the team, love the name, and haven't given this thing a lot of thought or are still in the denial stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonniey Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 I've never, in all my years, heard a person of Irish descent complain about the Notre Dame mascot. Does that matter? If only a very tiny minority complained, you may not have heard of a complaint. So then by using the standards applied by those pushing for a Redskins name change the Fighting Irish may very well have to change their name as well. After all we're talking about a very tiny minority of Native Americans wanting the name changed (I'd bet my house that a much larger number of Native Americans would be upset if the Redskins were forced to change their name). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 I ask those that want to change it, if it's changed, then what? What's next? Will this be the beginning of a group effort in ACTUALLY helping the Native American community? Or is this just a fad, like most of these issues, where you'll feel a sense of false self accomplishment and be able to sleep better at night? I'm curious. Please name other issues like this that are "just a fad". Civil rights, women's suffrage, gay marriage…are these fads too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gizmo 3squire Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Gibbs I agree, If they want to change it, take it all out. Every trace of Native American ancestry and start completely fresh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justice98 Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 This is going down a fascinating path. Please expand on your "Native Americans are whiners" argument. The way out of that is to say that it's not Native Americans whining, it's the non-NA liberals out there whining on their behalf. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve09ru Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 How about the term 'Yankee'? Since it can be interpreted in a derogatory manner should we scrape that to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 The leprechaun is used as an Irish stereotype. I really don't understand your argument. It seems to be that since Irish people don't hate the Fighing Irish logo, then Native Americans should not hate the Redskins logo. It's creating some kind of utterly false equivalency and then demanding consistency to your false equivalency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonniey Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 I don't think anyone wants it changed. I see this in groups: Fans that love the team but acknowledge the word is sketchy and should probably be changed. Fans that love the team, love the name but are just sick of this controversy and want to move on. Fans that love the team, love the name, and are willing to sacrifice the name but keep the colors/logo Fans that love the team, love the name, and haven't given this thing a lot of thought or are still in the denial stage. Missed the largest largest group though. Fans that love the team, love the name, and have given this thing a lot of thought and are adamantly opposed to changing the name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zazzaro703 Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 <p> Native Americans and organizations opposed[edit] The following groups have passed resolutions or issued statements regarding their opposition to the name of the Washington NFL team: Tribes[edit] Affiliated Tribes of Northwest Indians[155] Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma[155] Comanche Nation of Oklahoma[155] The Confederated Tribes of the Colville Reservation (Washington)[155] Grand Traverse Band of Ottawa and Chippewa Indians (Michigan) Hoh Indian Tribe[156] Inter Tribal Council of Arizona[157] Inter-Tribal Council of the Five Civilized Tribes[158] Juaneño Band of Mission Indians (California)[155] Little River Band of Ottawa Indians (Michigan) Match-E-Be-Nash-She-Wish Band of Pottawatomi Indians, Gun Lake Tribe (Michigan)[159] Menominee Tribe of Indians (Wisconsin)[155] Oneida Indian Nation (New York)[160] Oneida Tribe of Indians of Wisconsin[155] Navajo Nation Council[98] Penobscot Nation[161] Poarch Band of Creek Indians[162] Samish Indian Nation (Washington)[163] Sault Ste. Marie Tribe of Chippewa Indians (Michigan)[164] Shoshone-Bannock Tribes (Idaho)[165] Standing Rock Sioux Tribe (North Dakota) The Three Affiliated Tribes of the Fort Berthold Indian Reservation (North Dakota)[166] United South and Eastern Tribes (USET)[167] Organizations[edit] Advocates for American Indian Children (California) American Indian Mental Health Association (Minnesota) American Indian Movement[168] American Indian Opportunities Industrialization Center of San Bernardino County American Indian Student Services at the Ohio State University American Indian High Education Consortium American Indian College Fund Americans for Indian Opportunity Association on American Indian Affairs Buncombe County Native American Inter-tribal Association (North Carolina) Capitol Area Indian Resources (Sacramento, CA) Concerned American Indian Parents (Minnesota) Council for Indigenous North Americans (University of Southern Maine) Eagle and Condor Indigenous Peoples’ Alliance First Peoples Worldwide Fontana Native American Indian Center, Inc. (California) Governor’s Interstate Indian Council Greater Tulsa Area Indian Affairs Commission Great Lakes Inter-Tribal Council (Wisconsin) HONOR – Honor Our Neighbors Origins and Rights Kansas Association for Native American Education Maryland Commission on Indian Affairs Medicine Wheel Inter-tribal Association (Louisiana) Minnesota Indian Education Association National Congress of American Indians (NCAI) National Indian Child Welfare Association National Indian Education Association National Indian Youth Council National Native American Law Student Association Native American Caucus of the California Democratic Party Native American Finance Officers Association (NAFOA)[169] Native American Journalists Association[170] Native American Indian Center of Central Ohio Native American Journalists Association Native American Rights Fund (NARF) Native Voice Network Nebraska Commission on Indian Affairs Nottawaseppi Huron Band of Potawatomi (Michigan) North Carolina Commission of Indian Affairs North Dakota Indian Education Association Office of Native American Ministry, Diocese of Grand Rapids (Michigan) Ohio Center for Native American Affairs San Bernardino/Riverside Counties Native American Community Council Seminole Nation of Oklahoma Society of Indian Psychologists of the Americas Southern California Indian Center St. Cloud State University – American Indian Center Tennessee Chapter of the National Coalition for the Preservation of Indigenous Cultures Tennessee Commission of Indian Affairs Tennessee Native Veterans Society Tulsa Indian Coalition Against Racism[171] The Confederated Tribes of the Colville Reservation Unified Coalition for American Indian Concerns, Virginia The United Indian Nations of Oklahoma Virginia American Indian Cultural Resource Center Wisconsin Indian Education Association WIEA “Indian” Mascot and Logo Taskforce (Wisconsin) Woodland Indian Community Center-Lansing (Michigan) Youth “Indian” Mascot and Logo Task force (Wisconsin) It's as obvious as the nose on your face, bro.Id be real interested to see if all those things you listed even add up to 2,000 people. There are around 5.2 million NA in the US and you listed a handful of organizations/tribes that at best might account for a few thousand people. So i guess all the polling that gets done that comes up 85 to 90 percent of NAs dont mind are cherry picked people? Doubtful. I could start an organization and sign my name and id show up on your list. Obvious as my nose.... Right. Whats obvious here is the sissy PC people up to their normal tricks and BS. There are 566 recognized tribes, you listed what 20 of them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
War Paint Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 This is going down a fascinating path. Please expand on your "Native Americans are whiners" argument. I would find that to be silly, because Celts are not a historically oppressed racial minority in this country nor do they, in fact, exist any longer. The statue of limitations on appropriating dead cultures is probably around 500 years, give or take a few decades. No, I'm not calling NAs whiners because the one reliable poll on this topic showed that 90% of NAs weren't offended. Are their any NAs out there who are whiners? Yep. Every race have whiners. However, I view people like Ray Halbritter as an opportunist, not necessarily a whiner. Again, you guys wanting the name change are in the MINORITY. You have no actual data to back up your claims. I really don't understand your argument. It seems to be that since Irish people don't hate the Fighing Irish logo, then Native Americans should not hate the Redskins logo. It's creating some kind of utterly false equivalency and then demanding consistency to your false equivalency. Nope. Just pointing out the double standard and hypocrisy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Does that matter? If only a very tiny minority complained, you may not have heard of a complaint. Let's meet this fictional minority first and discuss it with them. I'd listen to their arguments. This is really way down the "The Jets are offensive to Muslims because 9/11" argument that Glenn Beck listeners make on twitter. No one is saing a "small minority should win this argument because any small minority should win any argument." The small minority is winning the argument because the small minority is making some pretty solid points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 How about the term 'Yankee'? Since it can be interpreted in a derogatory manner should we scrape that to? That's based on location, not race/skin color. Anything race-related is always gonna have issues Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Nope. Just pointing out the double standard and hypocrisy. But it is not a double standard because the mascots are in no way similar. Because leprechauns do not, in fact, exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
War Paint Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 How about the term 'Yankee'? Since it can be interpreted in a derogatory manner should we scrape that to? It's funny because the word Yankee and Tar Heels were actually at one time derogatory, unlike Redskin, which has evidence of not being derogatory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 How about the term 'Yankee'? Since it can be interpreted in a derogatory manner should we scrape that to? Seriously, can we stop with the "This team name is offensive because Midgets" argument? I really think making this point and/or joke should result in a week-long ban. Mainly because every single person who makes it thinks they are being original. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RVAbrendan Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 I can see an argument for the ND logo itself being offensive, as I would never call an Irishman a leprechaun, but I don't think Fighting Irish carries an explicitly negative connotation. Usually I would argue that white people can't really feel the effects of racism as a group because of the nature of racism as an expression of power, but the Irish were historically discriminated against so they may qualify as an exception. It isn't as though they are the Fighting Micks, though, and the cultural appropriation argument holds less water when it's the dominant culture (white European) being appropriated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abdcskins Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Buffalo Bills are 100000x more offensive to native Americans than Redskins are. In what way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 It's funny because the word Yankee and Tar Heels were actually at one time derogatory, unlike Redskin, which has evidence of not being derogatory. Well, there is the whole genocide thing too. Also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RVAbrendan Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 It's funny because the word Yankee and Tar Heels were actually at one time derogatory, unlike Redskin, which has evidence of not being derogatory. Just curious, would you feel comfortable going to a reservation and calling the people there 'Redskins'? What do you think their reaction would be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Lemme just say that I appreciate the input from all sides that has been thoughtful and pertinent without resorting to being insulting. A lot of very good stuff in here. As for myself, I'm gonna try to put all of this on the back-burner as soon as the pads start poppin' and that won't be long! Now, back to 6 more weeks of talking about Leprechauns!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.