The Official ES All Things Redskins Name Change Thread (Reboot Edition---Read New OP)

[Section106]

It is possible for a word to be offensive in one sentence, and to not be so, in another.

 

Any word can be offensive if used in the proper context. And that is the state of language, period. Harjo is asserting that the word is in and of itself a slur. But she is only informed by the context of the current state of her people. Had Natives not been conquered and subjugated I highly doubt that those tribes that described themselves as red skinned (and these peoples named themselves these terms long before the European Contact) would somehow eventually decide that the names they had given themselves were derogatory.

 

Goddard proves that describing Natives in racial terms was the idea of the Natives themselves and that is was benign and harmless. But if Harjo's assertion that using color is derogatory is to be believed then the Natives were using racial slurs when they described whiteskins and blackskins. If the term redskins is a slur then the terms whiteskins and blackskins are as well because of the use of color as a descriptor. And this is where her assertions fall apart. Redskins is not a slur in and of itself. It is only perceived to be one by Harjo because the people that have the power in this country, the white people, are using the term.She is basically saying that redskins is derogatory because white people call Natives by that term. She has provided plenty of examples that have been proven tenuous at best (read: made up) to show that the use of the word has always been derogatory. But upon close inspection her assertions are false.

 

This is ultimately about power, influence and money to Harjo and her group. That is why she is going after the Redskins first and foremost, because the team has a name that references skin color. If she can get the Redskins to change first (the most obvious offender to her way of thinking) then the rest will fall quickly and easily. Remember, her stated goal is the end of all references to Native American culture. She must have some reason. I don't understand what it is. Maybe she thinks that will allow her some precedence in court? Maybe she is just a true believer? She is very litigious though so I would bet on the former. 

[DogofWar1]

The Original Americans Foundation seems to be dishing out big bucks.

 

A dozen vehicles, unless they're providing lemons, is going to run north of 100K easily, probably several hundred K.

 

Tablets run all the way from around $200 to over a grand, and while I imagine we can except them to have bought ones closer to the lower end than the higher end, that's still going to come out probably north of 200k.

 

At this rate, we're probably looking at at least several million dollars across all 40 projects.  I'm glad actual problems are being solved through Allen's efforts.

[SWFLSkins]

Whereas I would assert that the difference between your two positions is that the two of you are arguing about the "offensive-ness" of the same word, in differing contexts.

Thus demonstrating what I would assume is a rule which we can all agree on:

It is possible for a word to be offensive in one sentence, and to not be so, in another.

(And to then observe that the matter which we are concerned with, here, is whether the name of the Washington Redskins is offensive, not whether the word "redskin" can be offensive, if you remove it from the word "Washington", and use it in a different way.)

 

 

I certainly can agree to that and since the time I last posted until this moment something happened that tells me, a great spirit carries us across the sky...The same Costco where I had the run in years ago with Cowboy fan loading my new TV on the morning of the infamous Monday Night Miracle game has again delivered a lasting memory to me and my family just now.....

 

 

Half Cherokee, half African American.....name...Oaklahoma, I stopped and asked his opinion of the term Redskin, he said it really doesn't bother him and that previously someone did call him that name, in NY. He said that is on them though. I asked him two questions, should the team change the name, he said no. I asked if the name was akin to saying the N word, he said no. Take it for what it is worth, I take it as more evidence that the terms intention is in the mouth of the beholder. 

 

It is obvious to me, and maybe crazy or stupid to others that this just happened to me now at Costco of all places. 

[Spearfeather]

This may be the best page in the entire thread.

[skinsmarydu]

This may be the best page in the entire thread.

Section 106 & SWFL deserve awards of some sort, thanks fellas. Well done.

[SWFLSkins]

Section 106 & SWFL deserve awards of some sort, thanks fellas. Well done.

 

 

Thanks, though I give the credit to forces which remain unseen to many, but not unknown to me. For me running into and talking to Oklahoma after the morning discussion was monumental. For many here they know I am truly passionate about this topic. 

 

A quote from one of my favorite books, The Circle of Life.... " The stench of humanity will interrupt the connection to the Creator", this is the reason most tribes changed locations of worship. 

 

My greatest fear is not today, but a day when the Native American image is so far removed by time that the memory of them is completely gone. I take pride in being a Redskins fan, I have sought council on the topic, as is taught in most NA communities. I did not arrive at my beliefs on my own, I stand steadfast in the opinions of those I valued along the way. 

[SWFLSkins]

I found this interesting.  Starting at 2:10:

 

http://www.redskins.com/media-gallery/videos/Rookie_Week_Lache_Seastrunk/2b8ec52d-b7e5-4321-bc33-cbf1b60be8a9

 

 

This is amazing, I am Seastrunk for life. 

[skinsmarydu]

Thanks, though I give the credit to forces which remain unseen to many, but not unknown to me. For me running into and talking to Oklahoma after the morning discussion was monumental. For many here they know I am truly passionate about this topic.

I don't get into it much here, lol, as I think my sig tells all where I stand on this issue...and this should be the last place I should have to fight for my team's name, no matter how liberal I may be.

Thanks so much for posting about your encounter with Oklahoma...I've sent it to my masses...(I'd seriously like the dude to end up famous for this, I swear.)

[Commander PK]

I am convinced more than ever that a massive backlash is growing over this topic.  Even people who could care less about Football are chiming in, and even some Cowboys fans on behalf of the Redskins.     

 

This letter from the senators to the NFL has really infuriated people.  Read the bulk of the comments below Keim's piece here.

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/10975869/washington-redskins-respond-senators-letter-calling-change-nickname

[SWFLSkins]

sorry was quoting from the above article, thanks Spear feather for bringing this to my attention.

[Destino]

I am convinced more than ever that a massive backlash is growing over this topic. Even people who could care less about Football are chiming in, and even some Cowboys fans on behalf of the Redskins.

This letter from the senators to the NFL has really infuriated people. Read the bulk of the comments below Keim's piece here.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/10975869/washington-redskins-respond-senators-letter-calling-change-nickname

I have the opposite reaction I think we are either nearing the point in which this is a lost cause. I wonder what percentage of young people think the word Redskin is offensive? I suspect it's high. I'm waiting for a rash of high schools and colleges moving to ban Redskins apparel. That's when I'll know for certain this issue is lost. Lose the young people and it becomes a matter of time.

[codeorama]

Larry was dead on in his assessment of what I meant.

For the record, I thought I've been very clear.

I don't care about the name change one way or another.

I have only pointed out that I have seen the word used as a slur.

Mostly, when hearing about the defense if the name change, it's non Indians saying it's not offensive. To me, that doesn't make sense.

Again, I know and realize the organization never intended to name the team using a derogatory term. I think that's obvious. But the word is used that way. That's all I'm saying.

[Commander PK]

I have the opposite reaction I think we are either nearing the point in which this is a lost cause. I wonder what percentage of young people think the word Redskin is offensive? I suspect it's high. I'm waiting for a rash of high schools and colleges moving to ban Redskins apparel. That's when I'll know for certain this issue is lost. Lose the young people and it becomes a matter of time.

 

I really don't think that is going to happen, and good luck to them enforcing a dress code like that.  I'm sure the backlash for that kind of action would be epic.  People are getting fed up.

 

As far as young people who think the term is offensive.  Well they need to be educated that it's not in the context it's being used.  Just like the NAACP's "Colored Person" and the United "Negro" College Fund.  Both of which are unacceptable terms to describe people anymore in any other context.  Now that Dan Snyder has offered his help to Native Americans, and they are accepting his help...this should be a dead issue.  In a manner of speaking there are Natives that now have a "stake" in the Redskins.  The Redskin's success is the program's success, and according to Bruce Allen it's working fabulously.  

[codeorama]

Painkiller, just to play devils advocate, as a white guy, I should be able to use the N word affectionately...

[Commander PK]

Painkiller, just to play devils advocate, as a white guy, I should be able to use the N word affectionately...

This applies if you believe they are the same thing, which I do not. Many of the people who would be called such a name do not believe it either. Some do....all evidence points to more don't. Their opinion is more important than mine.

I just don't see the opposition. Where is it besides the same people making the same arguments. Where are the converts en masse? What can they say about it they have not already said to win people to their side?

[Destino]

I really don't think that is going to happen, and good luck to them enforcing a dress code like that. I'm sure the backlash for that kind of action would be epic. People are getting fed up.

As far as young people who think the term is offensive. Well they need to be educated that it's not in the context it's being used. Just like the NAACP's "Colored Person" and the United "Negro" College Fund. Both of which are unacceptable terms to describe people anymore in any other context. Now that Dan Snyder has offered his help to Native Americans, and they are accepting his help...this should be a dead issue. In a manner of speaking there are Natives that now have a "stake" in the Redskins. The Redskin's success is the program's success, and according to Bruce Allen it's working fabulously.

A few thoughts

Helping Native Americans is wonderful but I fail to see exactly what it has to do with the discussion regarding the term Redskin. That's the problem with the OAF (other than the unfortunate acronym) as an argument, it's entirely irrelevant. No one is arguing that the Washington Redskins are openly hostile or even coldly indifferent towards native Americans, if they were OAF would weigh heavily. They are arguing that Redskin is a derogatory term and that the use of Native American imagery is cultural appropriation.

I suspect that there is no "they" when it comes to native Americans. In reading and listening to Native American responses to this issue from both sides it seems that tribes loom larger than a collective. One person even said that its likely to be seen as offensive to NAs out west but not him which suggests, as I suspect, that the terms derogatory nature is more specific than simply to "them" as a people.

I'm not sure context matters in this instance because the Redskins aren't owned by Native Americans, in operation for Native Americans, and really they have nothing to do with Native Americans. There's a big difference there compared to the other groups you listed.

Personally I'm still stuck on the question "is it derogatory or not" because it seems that the scalping origin is accepted as true while having been debunked. I'm not sure why these two narratives continue to exist without one side using facts to bash the other over the head.

[Commander PK]

For the most part I agree with what you said Des. I don't agree with all but a lot. For me what is the slam dunk that will force the name to change? Some Natives are offended...it appears more are not.

So in my mind we are at an impasse.

And specific to this point you made. The Original Americans Foundation is helping people who are supposed to be offended by the name. If they are offended....why accept the help from something that offends them? There is the relevance to the discussion in my opinion.

[grego]

Section 106-

Excellent post.

The only thing I would disagree with is your last sentence.

I'm quite sure she's a true believer. Nutty as they come. Her delusional nature is her driving force. I dont think there's a self interest motivation per se, but I'm sure she still sees herself as some sort of messiah.

I just think she believes her ramblings.

[Larry]

Painkiller, just to play devils advocate, as a white guy, I should be able to use the N word affectionately...

Yes, it is possible for a white guy to use that word and not be offensive.

See: Mel Brooks.

[SWFLSkins]

Larry was dead on in his assessment of what I meant.

For the record, I thought I've been very clear.

I don't care about the name change one way or another.

I have only pointed out that I have seen the word used as a slur.

Mostly, when hearing about the defense if the name change, it's non Indians saying it's not offensive. To me, that doesn't make sense.

Again, I know and realize the organization never intended to name the team using a derogatory term. I think that's obvious. But the word is used that way. That's all I'm saying.

 

 

Indians is offensive to most Native Americans, I think most of these terms are taken out of context. It is mostly Native Americans that are saying that it is no big deal, it is also mostly Non Native Americas making it one. Yes the word has been used that way, however it is not commonly referred to as such, until now, when exactly whom brought it forth and for what purposes. Always question motivation. 

[Glenn X]

Harry Reid, my home-state's senior Senator, is wasting the U.S. Senate's time by penning a b**ch-letter to the NFL about the Redskins' nickname?  Color me shocked.  Shocked, I tell you.

 

However, as someone who has followed Reid's time in the Senate, I think I'd prefer for him to focus on silly non-issues like this instead of really important stuff, where he seems more adept at royally screwing up such matters.  Harry, every time I think of you, I can't help but think of the following film clip featuring the late, great Bob Hope...

 

[grego]

Double post

[elkabong82]

Larry was dead on in his assessment of what I meant.

For the record, I thought I've been very clear.

I don't care about the name change one way or another.

I have only pointed out that I have seen the word used as a slur.

Mostly, when hearing about the defense if the name change, it's non Indians saying it's not offensive. To me, that doesn't make sense.

Again, I know and realize the organization never intended to name the team using a derogatory term. I think that's obvious. But the word is used that way. That's all I'm saying.

 

Mostly it's non Indians saying it is offensive also. It makes sense because there are a lot more non-NAs than NAs. Plenty of NAs have voiced their support of the team name and it's been shown in here plenty of times and on the very pages your posts appear on, only way you can miss them is if you choose to.

 

The word is used as a descriptor as well, just as Indian is used and I pointed this out to you in my reply to your previous post. The word is not commonly used as a slur otherwise you wouldn't have NA high schools using it and Annenberg poll wouldn't have come close to the results it did. You're making a huge mistake in assuming your one bit of anecdotal evidence in one region of the country applies everywhere despite evidence being shown that it doesn't. 

 

And again, context matters. The word is used as a descriptor, that's its origin. That is how the team uses the word as well. Those wanting the team name changed base it on a separate, uncommon context that the team clearly doesn't use. 

[AsburySkinsFan]

Painkiller, just to play devils advocate, as a white guy, I should be able to use the N word affectionately...

Redskins =/= N-word

Ergo false equivelancy.

[Jimmmbobb]

In the end, I believe the name will change....my own choice is "Rascals"....the politically correct crowd will beat us....I like "rascals" because it fits "Hail to the Redskins"....easy logo change...and we all think that way.