The Official ES All Things Redskins Name Change Thread (Reboot Edition---Read New OP)

[Destino]

Whereas, pointing out that things I didn't say, aren't true, is . . . ?

There is no sudden, rising swell of native opposition to the name. The NATIVES who are pushing thus, are the same ones (making the same arguments) that have been pushing it for decades.

There IS a rising swell in COVERAGE.

Onieda Indian Nation has been at it for decades? I thought they popped up recently and really put some energy back into this issue. They launched ChangedTheMascot.org, focused on gathering support, and made a lot of noise in the press. It's no accident the story is getting more press, there is a group actively working towards exactly that.

Also they've got a seemingly significant list of Native American groups supporting them.

National Congress of American Indians (NCAI)

United South and Eastern Tribes (USET)

National Indian Education Association

American Indian Sports Team Mascots.org

Advocates for American Indian Children (California)

The Affiliated Tribes of Northwest Indians

American Indian Mental Health Association (Minnesota)

American Indian Movement

American Indian Opportunities Industrialization Center of San Bernardino County

American Indian Student Services at the Ohio State University

American Indian High Education Consortium

American Indian College Fund

Association on American Indian Affairs

Buncombe County Native American Inter-tribal Association (North Carolina)

Capitol Area Indian Resources

Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma

Comanche Nation of Oklahoma

Concerned American Indian Parents (Minnesota)

Council for Indigenous North Americans (University of Southern Maine)

Eagle and Condor Indigenous Peoples’ Alliance

First Peoples Worldwide

Fontana Native American Indian Center, Inc.

Governor’s Interstate Indian Council

Grand Traverse Band of Ottawa and Chippewa Indians (Michigan)

Greater Tulsa Area Indian Affairs Commission

Great Lakes Inter-Tribal Council

Gun Lake Band of Potawatomi Indians (Michigan)

HONOR – Honor Our Neighbors Origins and Rights

Inter-Tribal Council of the Five Civilized Tribes (Composed of the Choctaw, Chickasaw, Muskogee (Creek), Cherokee, and Seminole Nations)

Inter Tribal Council of Arizona

Juaneño Band of Mission Indians

Kansas Association for Native American Education

Little River Band of Ottawa Indians (Michigan)

Maryland Commission on Indian Affairs

Match-E-Be-Nash-She-Wish Band of Pottawatomi Indians Gun Lake Tribe

Medicine Wheel Inter-tribal Association (Louisiana)

Menominee Tribe of Indians (Wisconsin)

Minnesota Indian Education Association

National Indian Gaming Association

National Indian Youth Council

National Indian Child Welfare Association

National Native American Law Student Association

Native American Finance Officers Association (NAFOA)

Native American Rights Fund (NARF)

Native American Caucus of the California Democratic Party

Native American Indian Center of Central Ohio

Native American Contractors Association

Native American Journalists Association

Nebraska Commission on Indian Affairs

Nottawaseppi Huron Band of Potawatomi (Michigan)

North Carolina Commission of Indian Affairs

North Dakota Indian Education Association

Office of Native American Ministry, Diocese of Grand Rapids (Michigan)

Ohio Center for Native American Affairs

Oneida Tribe of Indians of Wisconsin

Oneida Indian Nation

Poarch Band of Creek Indians

San Bernardino/Riverside Counties Native American Community Council

Seminole Nation of Oklahoma

Society of Indian Psychologists of the Americas

Society of American Indian Government Employees

Southern California Indian Center

St. Cloud State University – American Indian Center

Sault Ste. Marie Tribe of Chippewa Indians (Michigan)

Standing Rock Sioux Tribe (North Dakota)

Tennessee Chapter of the National Coalition for the Preservation of Indigenous Cultures

Tennessee Commission of Indian Affairs

Tennessee Native Veterans Society

Tulsa Indian Coaltion Against Racism

The Confederated Tribes of the Colville Reservation

The Three Affiliated Tribes of the Fort Berthold Indian Reservation

Unified Coalition for American Indian Concerns, Virginia

The United Indian Nations of Oklahoma

Virginia American Indian Cultural Resource Center

Wisconsin Indian Education Association

WIEA “Indian” Mascot and Logo Taskforce (Wisconsin)

Woodland Indian Community Center-Lansing (Michigan)

Youth “Indian” Mascot and Logo Task force (Wisconsin)

http://www.changethemascot.org/supporters-of-change/

I say seemingly impressive because I have no idea if those groups are real or significant.

[SWFLSkins]

Larry, of course the Media has brought it to the attention of everyone, the media brought the Treyvon case to the attention of everyone and ultimately because of the Media, Zimmerman was arrested.  

 

Using wikipedia to find fast population stats, whites(european americans) make up 70% of the population, blacks (african american) make up 12%, native amercians and alaskans make up .9%.

They are an extremely small minority.  Why don't we hear more outrage? Because there are not that many of them and they are not found everywhere.

 Don't use Wiki, here's the census bureau....   American Indians By the Numbers From the U.S. Census Bureau Related Links

• Notable American Indians
• Preference for Racial or Ethnic Terminology
• Indian Languages Spoken at Home
• Facts About American Indians Today
• American Indian Tribes
• Glossary of American Indian Terms
• Navajo Code Talkers
• Sacagawea Golden Dollar

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/aihmcensus1.htmlFind out how many American Indians live in the United States, where they live, the languages they speak, and more.

Population 5.2 million

The nation's population of American Indians and Alaska Natives, including those of more than one race. They made up about 2 percent of the total population in 2012. Of this total, about 49 percent were American Indian and Alaska Native only, and about 51 percent were American Indian and Alaska Native in combination with one or more other races.

11.2 million

The projected population of American Indians and Alaska Natives, alone or in combination, on July 1, 2060. They would comprise 2.7 percent of the total population.

437,339

Read more: American Indians: Census Facts | Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/spot/aihmcensus1.html#ixzz32wvShOLJ

 

Here in SouthWest Florida we have the Seminoles to the north, the Caloosa now gone and the Miccosukkee to the South and East. 

[mcsluggo]

The "media" isn't pushing this.  The segment of the population that finds it really offensive is pushing it, and the media occasionally picks up on it when that segment "scores a win" to get some extra attention.   IN my opinion, there is almost no chance that the name stays for another 20 years.   The issue is basically a ratchet--- it only moves in one direction--- slowly but surely more and more people are finding the name less acceptable.

 

That said, I think there is only a small minority that is truly offended by it  (this is as a percentage of the general population, not as a percentage of native americans).  And there is ALSO only a small percentage that is truly offended by the idea of changing the name.  x% want to change the name badly and y% will only change the name over their dead bodies... taken together x+y percent may only be 15% of the population <<<don't ask for evidence, i pulled that number out of my ass>>> but together they make up 99% of the noise on the subject.  

 

 

Its the same with any contentious issue... the ones that care the most are usually in one extreme end or another, but make the most noise. 

[Commander PK]

Those organizations probably speak for Natives the same way Obama or the Senate speak for me.

[SWFLSkins]

The name “Seminole” could have two meanings. From the Creek phrase phegee ishti semoli, Seminole means “wild men.” From the Spanish cimarrone, Seminole means “runaway.”

The Seminoles fought three wars against the Americans. The First Seminole War started in 1818 because Seminoles in Spanish Florida made raids across the border into the United States. General Andrew Jackson led American forces into Florida, captured several Spanish towns, and executed two British citizens that he believed were spies. The Americans were also upset that slaves from Georgia and Alabama were escaping to Florida to live with Seminoles, with whom they shared a goal: freedom from control by white men.

 

The Seminoles and Miccosukees in Florida today are descendants of those who refused to give in or to sign a treaty to move to the Indian Territory.

 

--------------------

So well beyond name calling, we should give Florida back to the Native Americans who were forced here before Deet, Disney, Sugar and OJ. 

 

________________

 

They refused to sign a treaty or give, was it right to take their land? Sticks and stones will break your bones, but names can never hurt me, what say us, give them their rightful land back? Where is the media outrage to someone taking someone else's valuable land? 

 

____________________

[Commander PK]

 

So well beyond name calling, we should give Florida back to the Native Americans who were forced here before Deet, Disney, Sugar and OJ. 

 

 

Yeah, if you want to do something really reasonable to help Natives we should turn the state of Florida back over to them.  Make all the white middle-class retirees go back to their states of origin.

 

lol

[Destino]

Yeah, if you want to do something really reasonable to help Natives we should turn the state of Florida back over to them. Make all the white middle-class retirees go back to their states of origin.

lol

Considering that virtually every insane news story originates in Florida, perhaps we should give it back and let them keep the current population. The state is to be transferred "as is" and we have an absolutely ironclad "no refunds or returns" policy. Take it or leave it.

[Larry]

Is it commonly used?

I have never heard it used aside from in regards to the team.

(That means it's commonly used).

[Commander PK]

Considering that virtually every insane news story originates in Florida, perhaps we should give it back and let them keep the current population. The state is to be transferred "as is" and we have an absolutely ironclad "no refunds or returns" policy. Take it or leave it.

 

this did make me laugh

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

(That means it's commonly used).

 

So, does "redskins" with a lower case 'r' even exist as a word?

[Commander PK]

 

 

Mission The Maryland Commission on Indian Affairs:

SERVES THE INTERESTS OF COMMUNITIES OF NATIVE AMERICAN GROUPS IN MARYLAND BY:

• Aiding in the process to obtain state and/or Federal recognition.

PROMOTES AWARENESS AND A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF BOTH HISTORICAL AND CONTEMPORARY NATIVE AMERICAN CONTRIBUTIONS TO LIFE IN MARYLAND BY:

• Assisting in the protection of Native American burial and other culturally significant sites.
• Organizing and maintaining a database of resources specific to Native American history and culture in Maryland.
• Publishing information and giving presentations on the culture and accomplishments of Native American groups in Maryland.
• Serving as a statewide clearinghouse for information.

ASSISTS STATE, LOCAL AND PRIVATE AGENCIES RESPONSIBLE FOR ADDRESSING THE EDUCATIONAL, SOCIAL AND ECONOMIC NEEDS OF NATIVE AMERICAN COMMUNITIES IN MARYLAND WITH ACTIVITIES SUCH AS:

• Identifying unmet social and economic needs and recommending specific actions to meet those needs.
• Identifying and supporting physical and mental health programs for Native Americans.
• Making recommendations to encourage and promote economic development in Native American Communities.

 

http://www.americanindian.maryland.gov/Mission.html

 

 

Nevermind, I see that the organization is administered by 9 Native Americans appointed by the Governor.

 

http://www.americanindian.maryland.gov/Commissioners.html

[SWFLSkins]

Those organizations probably speak for Natives the same way Obama or the Senate speak for me.

 

 

This is the beginning of Idiocracy, when the populace gets it's knowledge from CNN. 

Considering that virtually every insane news story originates in Florida, perhaps we should give it back and let them keep the current population. The state is to be transferred "as is" and we have an absolutely ironclad "no refunds or returns" policy. Take it or leave it.

 

LOL, yeah hardly anything weird happens in California. But well played, lol. 

[Commander PK]

Since I am a Maryland resident, I would like this organization to release a statement explaining why they feel the need to endorse this change.  One of them is from Prince Georges County where the team actually plays.  Something like Bruce Allen's would be nice...a letter that actually cites facts and scientifically obtained evidence.

[grego]

Oliver North has a contrary opinion that somebody actually posted. Good for him.

http://dailycaller.com/2014/05/23/oliver-north-disgusting-that-senate-took-up-redskins-name-over-dealing-with-va-video/

TRUTH

Props to Ollie for saying this, and for dm72 for posting similar thought earlier .

[Bliz]

How are they winning?

 

I said they won't do a poll because they're winning.  What I mean is they're winning the PR battle, and I think that's pretty self-evident.

 

There's only one reason you conduct another poll.  [and we're being cynical realists here, not idealists].  And that reason is so that you can release the results of the poll to drum up further support for you side of the debate.  It's a PR move. 

 

What momentum do we have on the PR front?  None.  When was the last time a high profile sportswriter or broadcaster made a public defense of the name?  When was the last time a major media organization published a letter from the sports editor on our side?  We can mock Peter King and Bob Costas and their ilk as spineless media PC dweebs.  Which they totally are.  But they have a voice.  A big voice. 

 

They're winning the PR battle because they have been drawing lots of attention, they've gotten some heavy media hitters on their side, they've defined the term as a slur in the eyes of the media, and that's how it's being presented in most every article now.  How many senators have stood up on our side?  Hell, Snyder can't even give money to charity without being criticized.

 

So what would the pro-change side have to gain from conducting a poll?  Nothing.  They get to shut up some fans who are still trying to fight the good fight?  So what.  Compared to the risk of their own poll blowing up in their face, it's not worth doing.  They shouldn't do a poll because they're winning the PR battle.  That's how they're winning.

[Larry]

Ray Halbritter is not the spokesman for all Native Americans.

At least as I understand it, he's not even the spokesman for the Oneida tribe.

He's the CEO of Oneida Nation, Incorporated. The politically connected corporation which he created, to build a casino.

He's been voted out of office. Twice. (And uses his political connections to keep the BIA from recognizing those votes.)

 

----------

 

Just did a quick Google of "Ray Hallbritter voted".  First hit was this article. 

 

It's an article about events in 2002, so I certainly assume that it well predates Hallbritter wading into the Redskins name "controversy"  And the author seems to be a do-gooder group who tries to lobby for Native causes, so I don't think they have any obvious anti-Hallbritter agenda. 

[Larry]

So, does "redskins" with a lower case 'r' even exist as a word?

 

I think we've had firsthand testimony that absolutely, it has been used, at least twice, relatively recently. 

 

(And I would certainly assume that it's been used that way, thousands of times.  Just as I think that code absolutely positively proves that the number of insulting uses is not zero, I also think it's a really safe bet that he has not personally witnessed the only two times it has been so used, in our lifetimes.) 

[War Paint]

I said they won't do a poll because they're winning.  What I mean is they're winning the PR battle, and I think that's pretty self-evident.

 

There's only one reason you conduct another poll.  [and we're being cynical realists here, not idealists].  And that reason is so that you can release the results of the poll to drum up further support for you side of the debate.  It's a PR move. 

 

What momentum do we have on the PR front?  None.  When was the last time a high profile sportswriter or broadcaster made a public defense of the name?  When was the last time a major media organization published a letter from the sports editor on our side?  We can mock Peter King and Bob Costas and their ilk as spineless media PC dweebs.  Which they totally are.  But they have a voice.  A big voice. 

 

They're winning the PR battle because they have been drawing lots of attention, they've gotten some heavy media hitters on their side, they've defined the term as a slur in the eyes of the media, and that's how it's being presented in most every article now.  How many senators have stood up on our side?  Hell, Snyder can't even give money to charity without being criticized.

 

So what would the pro-change side have to gain from conducting a poll?  Nothing.  They get to shut up some fans who are still trying to fight the good fight?  So what.  Compared to the risk of their own poll blowing up in their face, it's not worth doing.  They shouldn't do a poll because they're winning the PR battle.  That's how they're winning.

Out of everything I just read, it seems like you are saying since Peter King, Skip Bayless, Mike Florio, etc...are pushing for a name change, then that means we're losing the PR battle.  Just because some whiny liberal sports writers are ****ing about our name doesn't mean we're losing the PR battle.  The overwhelming majority of people don't think it's an issue.

 

We don't really need anyone defending us in the media.  The majority is on our side already. 

[codeorama]

Sorry, my last post, this goes along with my personal experience.

"The hurtful connotations are what many Native Americans hear in the Washington team name, often based on personal experience. Members of the Blackfeet Nation tribal council explain how they are referred to as “redskins” in Cut Bank, Mont., just outside their reservation’s border. They also recall being denied service in some restaurants in that same town. “Depending on the way you tell me [‘redskin’],” says Leon Vielle, one of the councilmen, “you might get punched in the nose, or you might get looked at mean.”

http://mmqb.si.com/2014/04/03/washington-nfl-team-name-debate/7/

Cut Bank is north of Great Falls, where I was.

[Patrick Evidente]

Simple question, would it be ok to have a team name based on the skin color of black person or Asian person? The SF Yellowmen?

As an Asian guy, I would rock a SF Yellowmen jersey.

[Spearfeather]

Out of everything I just read, it seems like you are saying since Peter King, Skip Bayless, Mike Florio, etc...are pushing for a name change, then that means we're losing the PR battle.  Just because some whiny liberal sports writers are ****ing about our name doesn't mean we're losing the PR battle.  The overwhelming majority of people don't think it's an issue.

 

We don't really need anyone defending us in the media.  The majority is on our side already. 

 

I don't know how most people here feel about him, but I think we'll get some love from Jon Gruden during the Monday Night games this year.

 

 

 

2013 AP Poll - 79% favor keeping the name

 

2014 AP Poll - 83% favor keeping the name

[SWFLSkins]

Cut Bank is north of Great Falls, where I was.

I liked this view from the same article, since we are cherry picking qoutes.....Neely Tsoodle of the Muscogee (Creek) Nation in Oklahoma: “My personal belief is completely different than anyone I know. But I don’t see the need to eliminate Native Americans as mascots. In fact, I don’t want to do that. At all. If we do, then we are erasing another part of our footprint in American culture. … Somewhere along the road it got out of hand, and became a caricature. Maybe it was lack of education, maybe it was society, but it turned into crazy, violent men running around beating drums with red paint on their face, and that’s not OK. But that doesn’t mean we should erase the name completely. We just need to make sure that the nickname is used in a tasteful manner and we are educating people about the meaning behind it. If we get rid of the name completely, we are erasing a part of our identity, and that’s something I know we have fought so hard to maintain.”

[codeorama]

I liked this view from the same article, since we are cherry picking qoutes.....Neely Tsoodle of the Muscogee (Creek) Nation in Oklahoma: “My personal belief is completely different than anyone I know. But I don’t see the need to eliminate Native Americans as mascots. In fact, I don’t want to do that. At all. If we do, then we are erasing another part of our footprint in American culture. … Somewhere along the road it got out of hand, and became a caricature. Maybe it was lack of education, maybe it was society, but it turned into crazy, violent men running around beating drums with red paint on their face, and that’s not OK. But that doesn’t mean we should erase the name completely. We just need to make sure that the nickname is used in a tasteful manner and we are educating people about the meaning behind it. If we get rid of the name completely, we are erasing a part of our identity, and that’s something I know we have fought so hard to maintain.”

I've said from the get go that I see both sides. That's more than I can say for the majority here.

[Commander PK]

I've said from the get go that I see both sides. That's more than I can say for the majority here.

Well what do you suggest we do since you see both sides. What would you do if you had the power to change the name? Serious question

Is there a way to keep the name and make both sides content?

[Larry]

I've said from the get go that I see both sides. That's more than I can say for the majority here.

The fact that you are willing to make that assertion, tells me that you don't.