Predicto Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 Did not know that. Froem all I've read his power was what made him so dominant. Going to have go to and watch the Rumble once again! No. If you want to see how good Foreman really was, go watch his fights against Frazier on youtube. Ali totally frustrated Foreman, and took him out of his game in a way that no other fighter ever could have. By the way, here is the list of top heavyweights of all time, in order, by the International Boxing Research Organization: Joe Louis Muhammad Ali Jack Johnson Jack Dempsey Rocky Marciano Larry Holmes James J. Jeffries George Foreman Sonny Liston Joe Frazier Gene Tunney Lennox Lewis Mike Tyson Evander Holyfield Sam Langford Jersey Joe Walcott Ezzard Charles Harry Wills James J. Corbett Bob Fitzsimmons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 Everyone remembers Ali, Frazier, and Foreman out of the 70s. And most boxing fans remember Ken Norton. But there were just so many good fighters then, it was amazing. Ernie Shavers would have been the best boxer Tyson ever faced and he was maybe the 6th or 7th best heavyweight of the decade. I'm not sure Tyson could have beaten an in his prime Larry Holmes. Holmes was another one of those boxers who just did not get hit. It was hard to do in practice, but theoretically, beating Tyson was pretty easy. Just don't get knocked out in the first five rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koala Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 I won't say I'm an expert in boxing, but who did Tyson ever beat that you'd hold up to guys like Foreman and Frazier? Game. Set. Match, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 I have been reading, but didn't think I'd end up posting. I have posted before on Ali. I was a huge Tyson fan in his early career. Mike was a ferocious, fearless, and a fiercely powerful hitter at his best. Like Fat Al, his potential was even more awesome, limited skillset aside. Sadly they both suffered from that cripplingly severe limitation between their ears. But I echo Predicto & LBK. I think Ali would have to fight smart and not be careless, but would have it well in hand. Having known people in the boxing profession for over four decades, I would contend it would be difficult to find many among them who would pick Tyson---it would have to be more of a "fluke win" (ala Aki ****ing it up). Some that I know would laugh at the idea more than not (though I don't think that's necessary). I would however reserve the right to ridicule anyone of the "Tyson wins easy" or even "Tyson no doubt" as the former is truly an idiotic position and the latter merely stupid. I also am reluctant to bring it up, but as with many topics, age of the fan plays a role in these matters in how people judge "rankings" across the generations, and even people who might believe that to be so, often construe in an incorrect manner (it's not simply about "liking the one of your generation more"). In Ali's prime, there was a similar tendency to under-rate how formidable the Jack Johnson/Joe Louis/Marciano etc's of earlier generations were, too, when compared to the Foreman/Ali/Frazier etcs. This is, of course, even with an understanding that training and nutrition has improved. But it would be fun to watch some of those old 30-50 round (and longer) fights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koala Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 Joe Louis Muhammad Ali Jack Johnson Jack Dempsey Rocky Marciano Larry Holmes James J. Jeffries George Foreman Sonny Liston Joe Frazier Gene Tunney Lennox Lewis Mike Tyson Evander Holyfield Sam Langford Jersey Joe Walcott Ezzard Charles Harry Wills James J. Corbett Bob Fitzsimmons Interesting list, but how is Evander below Tyson? He beat him, and he's four years older than Mike. Evander did a better job of taking care of himself over the years, another indication of his superiority over Mike, in case the ass-whoopings werent enough. If Evander Holyfield can frustrate Mike Tyson to the point of insanity, what do you think Muhammad Ali woulda done? And dont forget that Ali turned trash-talk into a science, he woulda had that dumb animal Mike Tyson in a mental hospital before the fight even started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DM72 Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 Interesting list, but how is Evander below Tyson? He beat him, and he's four years older than Mike. Evander did a better job of taking care of himself over the years, another indication of his superiority over Mike, in case the ass-whoopings werent enough.If Evander Holyfield can frustrate Mike Tyson to the point of insanity, what do you think Muhammad Ali woulda done? And dont forget that Ali turned trash-talk into a science, he woulda had that dumb animal Mike Tyson in a mental hospital before the fight even started. I agree that Holyfield should be over Tyson. Holyfield's body of work is a lot more impressive than Tyson's IMO. Wasn't a fan of Ali's trash talking. The things he said about Frazier was totally uncalled for. But you are correct, he would have easily gotten into Tyson's head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 Interesting list, but how is Evander below Tyson? He beat him, and he's four years older than Mike. Evander did a better job of taking care of himself over the years, another indication of his superiority over Mike, in case the ass-whoopings werent enough. Because of Tyson's ability to utterly destroy so many lesser fighters early in his career. That is meaningful (not as meaningful as what Ali accomplished, but meaningful nevertheless). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 I actually watched that "Ali Rap" special with Chuck D on ESPN Classic over the weekend, and yeah, Ali was brutal towards Frazier. A lot of people said that Joe held a ton of resentment toward Ali after that, lasting up until the day he died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koala Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 Because of Tyson's ability to utterly destroy so many lesser fighters early in his career. That is meaningful (not as meaningful as what Ali accomplished, but meaningful nevertheless). So, Tyson's ability to whoop lesser fighters than Evander, is more impressive than Evander's to whoop Tyson. Got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 So, Tyson's ability to whoop lesser fighters than Evander, is more impressive than Evander's to whoop Tyson. Got it. Not exactly. Evander whooped Mike after Mike 1) lost his air of invincibility by losing to Buster Douglas, and 2) went to jail. The Tyson that Evander beat five and one half years later was not the same caliber of a fighter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DM72 Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 Not exactly. Evander whooped Mike after Mike 1) lost his air of invincibility by losing to Buster Douglas, and 2) went to jail.The Tyson that Evander beat five and one half years later was not the same caliber of a fighter. Tyson was actually favored in the first fight. It was Holyfield who was considered done when they fought the first time. Tyson was still a very formidable fighter when they fought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koala Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 Not exactly. Evander whooped Mike after Mike 1) lost his air of invincibility by losing to Buster Douglas, and 2) went to jail.The Tyson that Evander beat five and one half years later was not the same caliber of a fighter. 1) How does Mike losing to Buster Douglas excuse Mike from losing to Evander? 2) Not Evander's fault. Plus, Evander is 4 years older than Mike, if anyone shoulda been past their physical prime when they fought, it was Evander. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GibbsFactor Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 Tyson was actually favored in the first fight. It was Holyfield who was considered done when they fought the first time. Tyson was still a very formidable fighter when they fought. Only out of respect for what he was in the mid to late 80s. Completely dominant. Nothing we've ever seen. 91 second championship bouts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koala Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 Only out of respect for what he was in the mid to late 80s. Completely dominant. Nothing we've ever seen. 91 second championship bouts. All that indicates to me is how weak boxing was in the late 80s. So few real contenders. Nothing like it was in Ali's time. Like someone said earlier, name one person that Tyson beat that deserves mention as a great all-time boxer. One. Just one. Edit: Besides an over-the-hill Larry Holmes that had to be coaxed out of a nursing home Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 I don't think it was about the skill level of who Tyson beat more than it was about how he bea them. He dominated them. By the Douglas fight, he really didn't care much about his training. I think Tyson at his best would've given a lot of people trouble within the first few rounds. I don't think you can find many people who will say that Tyson (by the time he fought Holyfield) was anywhere close to the fighter he once was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 1) How does Mike losing to Buster Douglas excuse Mike from losing to Evander? 2) Not Evander's fault. Plus, Evander is 4 years older than Mike, if anyone shoulda been past their physical prime when they fought, it was Evander. I didn't say it was Evander's "fault." I like Evander. But Mike Tyson in 1995 was not the same fighter he had been in 1989. Not even close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DM72 Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Let's face it, Tyson was pretty much a modern day Rocky Marciano. We'll never know how good he could have been because he fought during a time when the heavyweight division was weak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chachie Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 I didn't say it was Evander's "fault." I like Evander.But Mike Tyson in 1995 was not the same fighter he had been in 1989. Not even close. Which brings me to another point. Ali dominated the best fighters of the older era as he came in, dominated his own era, and then dominated an era that came along after his prime. I could do this for weeks, really. Have I been? I don't even know because I've been so focused on Ali's greatness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DM72 Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Which brings me to another point. Ali dominated the best fighters of the older era as he came in, dominated his own era, and then dominated an era that came along after his prime. I could do this for weeks, really. Have I been? I don't even know because I've been so focused on Ali's greatness. Hold on there. Please explain that one. Holmes was the era after Ali and Holmes whooped Ali's ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sticksboi05 Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Hold on there. Please explain that one. Holmes was the era after Ali and Holmes whooped Ali's ass. Ali was past his prime after being jailed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DM72 Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Ali was past his prime after being jailed. He might have lost a little, but he was still Ali. He was in no way a hasbeen when he fought Frazier and Foreman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Ali was past his prime after being jailed. More than that. Ali was almost 40, 15 years past his prime, when Holmes beat him. ---------- Post added September-26th-2012 at 05:50 PM ---------- He might have lost a little, but he was still Ali. He was in no way a hasbeen when he fought Frazier and Foreman. But he definitely was when he fought Holmes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DM72 Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 More than that. Ali was almost 40, 15 years past his prime, when Holmes beat him.---------- Post added September-26th-2012 at 05:50 PM ---------- But he definitely was when he fought Holmes. I totally agree. He had no business being in the ring with Holmes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GibbsFactor Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 1988 Tyson beats 1968 Ali. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chachie Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 I would even offer that Ali may have already had Parkinson's Syndrome when he fought Larry Holmes. I'm speculating of course, but he was showing signs of slurred speech at that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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