Ali vs. Tyson: Who Would Win?

[Sticksboi05]

1988 Tyson beats 1968 Ali.

I just don't see the evidencwe of that when all you have is Tyson beating scrubs compared to the heavyweight era of Ali. Punching hard is not enough to beat Ali.

[I_Bleed_B&G]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wtxwe_XQHI

[nonniey]

1988 Tyson beats 1968 Ali.

1988 Tyson doesn't beat any of the top 10 Heavywieghts in history in their primes. (Notice most don't rank Tyson in the top 10 there is a reason for that).

[C26 Run]

In their primes? I'm sorry but it's not even close. Ali would dominate Tyson. When Ali was at his prime, nobody and I mean nobody had his punching speed. Ali with his speed would have overmatched Tyson. Tyson was tough which is why a fight like this would go to Championship rounds. But in the end Ali knock-out Tyson.

:helmet:

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

Nor should Douglas have fought Tyson at the time...

Douglas was the #1 contender, iirc

when I said Spinks should not have fought Ali, it was only Spinks' 8th professional fight.

---------- Post added September-26th-2012 at 11:50 PM ----------

I disagree entirely. What makes great fighters is competition.

I said styles make fights, not great fighters.

Meaning, that Lewis vs. Ali would be a different fight than Foreman vs. Ali.

I rate Foreman higher as a HW than Lewis, but Ali would not have fought Lewis the same as he did Foreman.

---------- Post added September-26th-2012 at 11:55 PM ----------

I am not saying Leon Spinks had a relatively Great Pro Career compared to the people we are discussing. I'm saying he was one of the most exciting and closely followed young fighters of his time. He won the Olympics and he was heavy weight champion of the world. He was 7-0-1 with 5KO's when he faced Ali as an underdog. And remember He won a decision in that fight. He won a decision against Mohamed Ali.

8 fights in, and he deserved to fight the HW champion of the world?

my argument is that his prime may not have been that fight, but probably about 4-5 years later with more experience. that doesnt mean Leon Spinks wasnt a great talent but you need more bouts in the pro ranks before you reach what is your peak. That is why I said Spinks probably should not have fought Ali because a)if he lost, it could have adverse effects on his confidence b)if he wins, he may believe he doesnt have to work hard. IT was B that happened to Spinks.

---------- Post added September-26th-2012 at 11:59 PM ----------

Frazier would have been a pretty easy target for Tyson. No one ever had a problem hitting Smokin' Joe. And being a target for Tyson was a bad bad move. Ali never had a problem hitting Joe' date=' but he did have a problem hurting until very late in fights. Foreman, of course, nearly murdered Frazier.

Norton was a lot like Lennox Lewis - a big guy who did not really like to mix it up. That's why I think the fighter over the last 20 years who would have given Ali the most trouble is Lewis. Ali liked to frustrate boxers into mistakes. Lewis - rarely - made mistakes. I don't think Lewis was as willing as Ali to suffer in the ring though.

---------- Post added September-26th-2012 at 02:13 PM ----------

Young Foreman actually had pretty fantastic mechanics. His footwork was remarkable and he was probably the best ever at cutting off the ring among big fighters. Ali went to the Rope a Dope in Zaire because he figured out quickly that he was not going to be able to run away from Foreman.

People like to think of Foreman as Frankenstein (because that's what Ali called him), but he was pretty athletic.

really good post. I actually think the Klitschkos would give Ali problems too (especially Vitali).

and yeah, Foreman was weak mentally. If a guy wasnt going down early, he would drop his head.

---------- Post added September-27th-2012 at 12:02 AM ----------

Ernie Shavers would have been the best boxer Tyson ever faced and he was maybe the 6th or 7th best heavyweight of the decade.

and he was a harder puncher than Tyson. Probably the hardest puncher in the history of the sport.

I actually watched that "Ali Rap" special with Chuck D on ESPN Classic over the weekend' date=' and yeah, Ali was brutal towards Frazier. A lot of people said that Joe held a ton of resentment toward Ali after that, lasting up until the day he died.[/quote']

an even better doc to watch about this was on HBO a couple of years ago called "Thrilla in Manilla."

Ali was an absolute disgrace to Frazier. Embarrassing stuff, and it made me lose A LOT of respect for him.

[Mr. Sinister]

Yeah, they showed Ali punching a stuffed gorilla in one of his open training sessions. That was a little uncomfortable, honestly. Even moreso when people were laughing while he was doing it.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

Yeah, they showed Ali punching a stuffed gorilla in one of his open training sessions. That was a little uncomfortable, honestly. Even moreso when people were laughing while he was doing it.

the irony in all that is that he was calling Frazier an Uncle Tom, while doing that stuff for the white media. A large portion of which were probably racist and said hateful things about Ali years earlier.

Ali did a great thing not going to Vietnam but as I get older and read more about the guy, I feel a lot of his hero status came from those babyboomers who saw that back then and agreed, and are now the media today, as well as him having Parkisons and not being able to speak anymore. Its easier for them to fill in the narrative for him instead of having him speak for himself since he cannot.

Frazier was actually giving Ali money while Ali was in boxing exile and was calling Ali champ and thats how Ali paid him back. Frazier wasnt perfect himself, but you can see why he was so angry at Ali for all these years. That anger probably consumed him and ultimately killed him.

[JMS]

.8 fights in, and he deserved to fight the HW champion of the world?

my argument is that his prime may not have been that fight, but probably about 4-5 years later with more experience. that doesnt mean Leon Spinks wasnt a great talent but you need more bouts in the pro ranks before you reach what is your peak. That is why I said Spinks probably should not have fought Ali because a)if he lost, it could have adverse effects on his confidence b)if he wins, he may believe he doesnt have to work hard. IT was B that happened to Spinks.

.

You know when a challenger "deserves" a title shot. When the public will pay to see it. Leon spinks may have only had 8 professional fights when he fought Ali, but he had been fighting the best amatures in the world and doing very well for five years before he turned pro. He was a very exciting fighter... But he self destructed after winning the belt.

---------- Post added September-27th-2012 at 01:48 AM ----------

I agree that Holyfield should be over Tyson. Holyfield's body of work is a lot more impressive than Tyson's IMO.

Wasn't a fan of Ali's trash talking. The things he said about Frazier was totally uncalled for. But you are correct, he would have easily gotten into Tyson's head.

Tyson was a human wrecking ball his first 5 years as a professional. He basically fought every months for 2 years and I think only a hand full of guys got out of the first round with him, Including who were the heavy weight champions back then... Guys like Micheal Spinks, who had a belt, Tyson put down in 1 minute 30 seconds. Boxing had never seen anything like it nor have they seen anything like it since.

( From 3/85 when Tyson went pro to 2/90 when he lost to Buster Douglas, tyson fought 37 professional fights.in 59 months. )

15 fights in 1985

13 fights in 1986

4 fights in 1987

3 fights in 1988

2 fights in 1989

.Tyson was a beast... He was never the same fighter after Robin Givens, Buster Douglas, and Jail.... That's the reason why Tyson was such a name and everybody wanted to see him fight and every figher wanted to fight him; cause his fights were spectacles. The guy Holyfeild fought, wasn't the same guy.

---------- Post added September-27th-2012 at 02:10 AM ----------

How can anyone say Holyfield was out if his depth as a heavyweight? Those 3 fights with Bowe should be enough to prove otherwise. He beat George Foreman. And George Foreman was still feared at the time. And he beat Tyson when Tyson was still one of the best.

George Forman was 45 years old!! Granted, Forman had freakish sucess as a geriatric; but don't tell me that doesn't reflect poorly on the state of the heavyweight division when Holyfield was one of the top guys.

Oh and those three fights against Ridick Bowe you want to hang Holyfields hat on... Holyfield lost 2 out of three of those fights. I don't think that's anything to hang his credentials on.

Why do I say Holyfield was out of his depth as a heavy weight... Hmmmmmm Let me see, he was 44-10-2 as a professional.. with 20 wins coming as a cruiser weight or Light Heavy weight. That means as a heavyweight he basically won 2 out of 3 fights... with a record of 24-10-2... Not that great. he was 20-0 as a cruiser weight / light heavy weight. That's where he belonged naturally. But the big money was in the heavy weight division so that's what pushed Holyfield up in class. He had the talent to be compeditive, but he didn't belong, and he was far far from dominant. He was mediocre in an extremely weak heavyweight division. He had more heart and skill, than ability; and it showed.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

You know when a challenger "deserves" a title shot. When the public will pay to see it. Leon spinks may have only had 8 professional fights when he fought Ali, but he had been fighting the best amatures in the world and doing very well for five years before he turned pro. He was a very exciting fighter... But he self destructed after winning the belt.

Amateur boxing is nowhere near the same as professional boxing. If you are a boxing fan, you know that. And its not like Spinks had 10+ years of amateur experience either and was in his late 20s. Dude should not have been in the ring to fight Ali at that time.

America loved Oscar De La Hoya after the 1992 olympics, should he have gone in and challenged Azumah Nelson after beating Frank Avelar in his 7th fight?

Tyson was a human wrecking ball his first 5 years as a professional. He basically fought every months for 2 years and I think only a hand full of guys got out of the first round with him, Including who were the heavy weight champions back then... Guys like Micheal Spinks, who had a belt, Tyson put down in 1 minute 30 seconds. Boxing had never seen anything like it nor have they seen anything like it since.

Spinks was the only in his prime HOFer Tyson had faced in his career prior to fighting Holyfield. Think about that. You can say he ran through them like it was nothing, but thats the point. He ran through tomato cans like it was nothing. Greats are supposed to do that. And Spinks was also a blown up HW, dude was really a LHW but moved up because of his name and the dearth of quality in that division.

[Chachie]

Ali was an absolute disgrace to Frazier. Embarrassing stuff, and it made me lose A LOT of respect for him.

Sadly, this is so true. It's the only part of Ali's career I am disappointed in. It was the wrong ploy to use while trying to get inside Frazier's head.

[JMS]

Amateur boxing is nowhere near the same as professional boxing. If you are a boxing fan, you know that. And its not like Spinks had 10+ years of amateur experience either and was in his late 20s. Dude should not have been in the ring to fight Ali at that time.

I disagree with this. There have been times when the best fighters in the world were professional and their was no disputing it. At other times it hasn't been nearly as clear.

Teófilo Stevenson for example, a cuban heavy weight, was a career amateur fighter, who arguable was the best heavyweight in the world in the late 70's early 80's. I would not say the amateur ranks were totally outclassed by the professionals when Leon Spinks was coming up.

Spinks was the only in his prime HOFer Tyson had faced in his career prior to fighting Holyfield. Think about that. You can say he ran through them like it was nothing, but thats the point. He ran through tomato cans like it was nothing. Greats are supposed to do that. And Spinks was also a blown up HW, dude was really a LHW but moved up because of his name and the dearth of quality in that division.

I don't think Michael Spinks was a HOF'er as a heavy weight. He was a little bit like holyfield. He had a lot of heart, he was a skilled boxer, but he was out of his depth as a heavyweight.

He thrived only because of the "dearth of quality" in the division as you say. Tyson exposed him. I don't think Tyson was a great boxer, but he did have something which elevated him above average fighters.

[DM72]

I disagree with this. There have been times when the best fighters in the world were professional and their was no disputing it. At other times it hasn't been nearly as clear.

Teófilo Stevenson for example, a cuban heavy weight, was a career amateur fighter, who arguable was the best heavyweight in the world in the late 70's early 80's. I would not say the amateur ranks were totally outclassed by the professionals when Leon Spinks was coming up.

I don't think Michael Spinks was a HOF'er as a heavy weight. He was a little bit like holyfield. He had a lot of heart, he was a skilled boxer, but he was out of his depth as a heavyweight.

He thrived only because of the "dearth of quality" in the division as you say. Tyson exposed him. I don't think Tyson was a great boxer, but he did have something which elevated him above average fighters.

Dude, again. Holyfield WAS NOT out of his depth as a heavyweight. The man beat too many quality heavyweights for you to make that claim. I believe he may have been the undisputed heavyweight champ at one time. Noway he was out of his depth as a heavyweight.

[JMS]

Sadly, this is so true. It's the only part of Ali's career I am disappointed in. It was the wrong ploy to use while trying to get inside Frazier's head.

I think you guys miss the entire point of Ali's pre fight press conferences. Ali got in his opponents heads. Some thought he was a clown early in his career and dismissed him. In his prime Ali's hyginks distracted and angered guys like Foreman, Norton, and Frazier. I don't care what you say. It added excitement to the sport, it was a tactic which influenced the fight, it was innovative and entertaining...

What was really key was ali's ability to take people out of their game, while he was totally in control of his own. People hated Ali for this. It's one of the things which made him unique.

---------- Post added September-27th-2012 at 01:54 PM ----------

Dude, again. Holyfield WAS NOT out of his depth as a heavyweight. The man beat too many quality heavyweights for you to make that claim. I believe he may have been the undisputed heavyweight champ at one time. Noway he was out of his depth as a heavyweight.

Quality Heavy Weights? Like Who? A Mike Tyson after prison? 45 year old George Foreman? 43 year old Larry Holmes? Name one quality fighter Holyfeild ever beat consistently, or even more times than he lost to him?

20-0 at lower weight classes with 14 Knock Outs.

24-10-2 as a heavy weight with 12 Knock Outs....

I call that out of his depth!

Loosing consistently to guys like Ridick Bow(1-2) and Lennox Lewis(0-1-1), but also guys like Chris Byrd, James Toney, Larry Donald, Who are these guys?

Beating great fighters like? -------------- wait for it -------------- Nobody!...

To be fair though I don't think there were a lot of quality Heavy Weights when Holyfield was kicking around. I think that's one reason Holyfield was able to survive. Other than Ridick Bowe and maybe Lewis, I don't think any of the others were worth much, and I think Ridick's failure to pay off Don King really hurt his career as did his ducking Lennox Lewis as a professional.

Holyfeild had a lot of heart, he was a good boxer, but as a heavyweight he was out of his depth unless he was facing fatally flawed opponents; which he mostly was..

[DM72]

I think you guys miss the entire point of Ali's pre fight press conferences. Ali got in his opponents heads. Some thought he was a clown early in his career and dismissed him. In his prime Ali's hyginks distracted and angered guys like Foreman, Norton, and Frazier. I don't care what you say. It added excitement to the sport, it was a tactic which influenced the fight, it was innovative and entertaining...

What was really key was ali's ability to take people out of their game, while he was totally in control of his own. People hated Ali for this. It's one of the things which made him unique.

---------- Post added September-27th-2012 at 01:54 PM ----------

Quality Heavy Weights? Like Who? A Mike Tyson after prison? 45 year old George Foreman? 43 year old Larry Holmes? Name one quality fighter Holyfeild ever beat consistently, or even more times than he lost to him?

20-0 at lower weight classes with 14 Knock Outs.

24-10-2 as a heavy weight with 12 Knock Outs....

I call that out of his depth!

Loosing consistently to guys like Ridick Bow(1-2) and Lennox Lewis(0-1-1), but also guys like Chris Byrd, James Toney, Larry Donald, Who are these guys?

Beating great fighters like? -------------- wait for it -------------- Nobody!...

To be fair though I don't think there were a lot of quality Heavy Weights when Holyfield was kicking around. I think that's one reason Holyfield was able to survive. Other than Ridick Bowe and maybe Lewis, I don't think any of the others were worth much, and I think Ridick's failure to pay off Don King really hurt his career as did his ducking Lennox Lewis as a professional.

Holyfeild had a lot of heart, he was a good boxer, but as a heavyweight he was out of his depth unless he was facing fatally flawed opponents; which he mostly was..

First: What Ali said and did to Frazier, was black on black racism. He called Frazier an uncle tom, but in fact, Ali was the uncle tom.

Second: Tyson was still the most feared heavyweight after prison. Do you agree? And when he fought Bowe, Bowe was the best heavyweight in the world. In all honestly, you have to give Holyfield as much due as you would Frazier. Everyone considers Frazier an all time great but his record against All and Foreman is 1-5. Holyfield's record against his two biggest rivals Bowe and Tyson is 3-2.

Third: Are you seriously counting fights out of his prime? I find it ironic that you're so quick to point out Tyson being out of his prime after prison but you have no problem bringing up Holyfield's fights against Byrd, Toney and even Lewis. While you're at it, he loss to John Ruiz. IMO, that's the same as Ali losing to Spinks. Anyone of those guys, maybe except Lewis, Holyfield defeats in his heyday.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I'm not even sure what we are arguing at this point.....

I don't think either Tyson or Holyfield are all-time Top 10 heavyweights. And I'm not that terribly interested in ranking them since it's stupidly complicated. I do think that if they had met before Tyson went to prison, Tyson would have beaten him. But Holyfield was more willing than most heavyweights to take a beating in order to win a fight so who knows?

By the way...I think they are boring as hell, but the Klitschkos would give any heavyweight in history a problem just because of their size. Foreman was a monster in his prime and he would be giving up 3 inches and 30 pounds to Vitali. The main problem with the heavyweight division right now is the fact that the champs are actually superheavyweights.

PS

One of the weird little facts about Ali's late late career is that he ruined his legs in a 1976 Boxer versus Wrestler match with Antonio Inoki. That's the infamous fight where Inoki lays on his back for fifteen rounds and kicks at Ali's legs. Ali through six punches the entire fight.

At the end of the fight, Ali had blood clots and an infection in his leg. His legs were more or less gone for the rest of his career. But he still had fights with Norton, Shavers, Spinks, and Holmes after that. That's a hellacious list for a fighter with zero mobility and it makes you wonder if he would have taken less of a beating in those years had he not fought Inoki.

[DM72]

I'm not even sure what we are arguing at this point.....

I don't think either Tyson or Holyfield are all-time Top 10 heavyweights. And I'm not that terribly interested in ranking them since it's stupidly complicated. I do think that if they had met before Tyson went to prison' date=' Tyson would have beaten him. But Holyfield was more willing than most heavyweights to take a beating in order to win a fight so who knows?

By the way...I think they are boring as hell, but the Klitschkos would give any heavyweight in history a problem just because of their size. Foreman was a monster in his prime and he would be giving up 3 inches and 30 pounds to Vitali. The main problem with the heavyweight division right now is the fact that the champs are actually superheavyweights.[/quote']

I have a question. Why is Frazier an automatic top 10 heavyweight and not Holyfield? Simply because he won the fight of the century? And Frazier is one of my all time favorites mind you.

And I agree with you about the Klitschkos as I think the same would apply to Lennox Lewis.

[JMS]

First: What Ali said and did to Frazier, was black on black racism. He called Frazier an uncle tom, but in fact, Ali was the uncle tom.

Ali created the theater which is today the pre-fight press conference. Condemning him for what was essentially marking his fights, and what is today often done in coordination with the other camps is idiotic. Joe Frazier fought Ali three times, and those three checks were the largest checks he ever earned in his life. Part of the event was the colorful insults Ali shot out at his opponents. It was theatre to sell the fight, just like it is today. I remember him calling somebody a Gorilla, and said he was too ugly to be champion. Ali held up his candy bar and said you think they are going to put that face on a candy bar? It was funny, but all staged.

Calling Ali an Uncle Tom is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. It's true that many whites liked Ali for his skills, his heart, bringing entertainment to the fights, and because he was well spoken. But many more hated his guts for the same reasons. Ali also called out racism, converted to Islam, changed his name, and refused the draft; none of which white America had much of a track record in understanding. The Genius of Ali was to recognize that it really didn't matter if the public was paying to see him fight because they wanted to see him win, or because they wanted to see him get his block knocked off. Millions watched him for both reasons. Ali's hyjinks basically set the stage for the professional athletes acting like spoiled brats... I know what you are going to say... That's not a good thing...

Here is why it's a good thing. Ali sold himself that way, but he carried himself to a different standard. His theatre was transparent, when push came to shove Ali did what he thought was right and damned the consequences. Modern 20-20 hind sight sides with Ali even as public opinion condemned him in his time. ( Draft, Civil Rights, Islam, Vietnam, etc )... Ali played the spoiled brat on TV but he was a man of conviction and proved that over and over again as he went his own way and constantly risked his career in doing so. It would have been so easy for Ali to court public opinion and let the American public love him. But Ali challenged the American public constantly which made him as much of an anti hero to some as it made him a hero to others.

Second: Tyson was still the most feared heavyweight after prison. Do you agree? And when he fought Bowe, Bowe was the best heavyweight in the world. In all honestly, you have to give Holyfield as much due as you would Frazier. Everyone considers Frazier an all time great but his record against All and Foreman is 1-5. Holyfield's record against his two biggest rivals Bowe and Tyson is 3-2.

I agree that Tyson was the most followed heavyweight in the world even after Prison.. But clearly he was a shaddow of his former self.

41–1-0 before going to prison...

_9-6-2 after getting out... and that includes his tune up fights when he first got back, who were with wind-up-toys.

Tyson was a beast before Prison. After Prison he was basically living off his reputation. He was still the biggest draw in boxing, but he was not close to the same guy when

Holyfield fought him.

Third: Are you seriously counting fights out of his prime? I find it ironic that you're so quick to point out Tyson being out of his prime after prison but you have no problem bringing up Holyfield's fights against Byrd, Toney and even Lewis. While you're at it, he lose to John Ruiz. IMO, that's the same as Ali losing to Spinks. Anyone of those guys, maybe except Lewis, Holyfield defeats in his heyday.

Fair Point, Holyfield was in his late 30's early 40's when he fought Byrd, Toney, and Lewis.. But that still doesn't excuse him loosing then to the only quality guy he fought in his entire career 2 out of 3 fights against Ridick Bowe. ( discounting Lennox Lewis )

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I have a question. Why is Frazier an automatic top 10 heavyweight and not Holyfield? Simply because he won the fight of the century? And Frazier is one of my all time favorites mind you.

And I agree with you about the Klitschkos as I think the same would apply to Lennox Lewis.

Frazier is a Top 10 Heavyweight because he happened to be the one fighter that Muhammad Ali (who is either #1 or #2 depending on who is voting) could not solve. In Frazier's three fights with Ali, 1) he beat him fairly cleanly, 2) lost an ugly, close fight, and 3) nearly killed Ali along with himself in a losing effort.

Even if you take away the Ali fights, he had a remarkable career. He was a gold medalist when that meant something and an undefeated heavyweight champ during a brutally tough time in that division. His only losses were to Ali and Foreman who are in anyone's top ten and only Foreman truly outclassed him. He also had probably the most devasting left hook in boxing history.

He also had incredibly entertaining fights. The Ali Trilogy is historic obviously, but the first Quarry fight won Fight of the Year. And even his wipeout by Foreman is bizarrely entertaining. Only Joe Frazier would get up six times after being knocked down by a Greek God like Foreman.

Frazier had three talents.

1. He could take a punch better than nearly anyone.

2. He had a left hook that could not be stopped.

3. He was willing to die to win a fight.

PS He did all this while being nearly blind in one eye.

My biggest problem with Evander is the only entertaining fights he had were with Bowe and I felt Bowe out-classed him terribly. And Riddick Bowe was the laziest good figther of all time.

[DM72]

I agree that Tyson was the most followed heavyweight in the world even after Prison.. But clearly he was a shaddow of his former self.

Fair Point, Holyfield was in his late 30's early 40's when he fought Byrd, Toney, and Lewis.. But that still doesn't excuse him loosing then to the only quality guy he fought in his entire career 2 out of 3 fights against Ridick Bowe.

Tyson WAS STILL a very good heavyweight when they fought. Again, it was actually Holyfield that was thought to have lost it and not Tyson. Tyson was also favored in their first fight.

Again I ask, do you hold it against Frazier that he lost 2 out of 3 to Ali and lost both fights to Foreman?

[JMS]

I have a question. Why is Frazier an automatic top 10 heavyweight and not Holyfield? Simply because he won the fight of the century? And Frazier is one of my all time favorites mind you.

Cause Frazier was 32-4-1 (27 ko's) with his 4 losses coming to Mohomed Ali(2), and George Foreman(2) in their prime...

Frazier had a great career, beat and was beaten by truly great fighters in the golden era of boxing.

Put this in perspective, Holyfield had a hard time with George Foreman fighting him nearly 20 years after Frazier lost to him...

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Again I ask, do you hold it against Frazier that he lost 2 out of 3 to Ali and lost both fights to Foreman?

No. He nearly won 3 out 3 with Ali and he simply was not the right kind of fighter to handle Foreman. Frazier could walk through anyone's punches...except George's.

Holyfield beat Tyson at a time when it seemed to matter, but - later - I think we figured out that beating Tyson at that point was not difficult. He lost to Bowe twice and may have lost the second fight had a parachutists not nearly murdered Bowe's pregnant wife during the fight.

I also hold it against him that Michael Moorer beat him.

I mean, what are Holyfield's career highlights?

I'll give you the first Tyson fight.

I'll give you the second Bowe fight.

I guess I'll give you the Douglas fight though Buster could not have been less interested that night.

After that, it's bites and heart problems and John Ruiz.

---------- Post added September-27th-2012 at 03:00 PM ----------

Anyway...this thread is about Tyson.

I actually think Larry Merchant had the best take on this. Tyson should not be in the discussion of "Greatest of All Time" but should be off in his own little category with Sonny Liston. Call that "Most Feared"....."Should Have Been All Time Greats"....."Most Self Destructive"..........

I honestly think the biggest problem I have with Tyson is that I think he quit in the ring twice while either in his prime or trying to extend his prime. Great fighters do not just give up against Buster Douglas. And they do not try to get disqualified against Evander Holyfield.

I didn't care for him as a fighter, but Holyfield - to his credit - never gave less than 100 percent HGH-fueled effort.

[JMS]

Tyson WAS STILL a very good heavyweight when they fought.

No he really wasn't. Not according to his record..... records don't lie. Tyson was a very good and potentially going to be great before prison. After Prison he was nothing.

Again, it was actually Holyfield that was thought to have lost it and not Tyson. Tyson was also favored in their first fight.

Tyson was the name. Tyson was the draw. But he stunk. The public was hoping he would regain his form. He never did.

Again I ask, do you hold it against Frazier that he lost 2 out of 3 to Ali and lost both fights to Foreman?

Certainly. Frazier was a Great Fighter... Ali in my opinion was the Greatest.. Foreman was great too, could have been better than Ali...

Holyfield was not a great fighter. He was a good fighter who came up in a time when the heavy weight division was frankly terrible. So terrible that a guy like

George Foreman was able to win 4 title fights AFTER he turned 45... Good for George, terrible for the division.

---------- Post added September-27th-2012 at 04:04 PM ----------

t Holyfield - to his credit - never gave less than 100 percent HGH-fueled effort

I agree with that.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Not according to his record..... records don't lie. Tyson was a very good and potentially going to be great before prison. After Prison he was nothing.

I think the dirty little secret is that Tyson was done before he went to prison.

---------- Post added September-27th-2012 at 03:10 PM ----------

Certainly. Frazier was a Great Fighter... Ali in my opinion was the Greatest.. Foreman was great too, could have been better than Ali...

Holyfield was not a great fighter. He was a good fighter who came up in a time when the heavy weight division was frankly terrible. So terrible that a guy like

George Foreman was able to win 4 title fights AFTER he turned 45... Good for George, terrible for the division.

I actually disagree with you here.

I think the early to mid 90s were a pretty good era in the heavyweight division. Bowe was interesting. Lewis was good - if unfocussed at times. I thought Moorer was actually pretty good. Holyfield was good. Tyson was around and still relatively dangerous. And you had a lot of second-tier guys who could be dangerous on the right night - McCall, Morrison, Bruno, etc. Plus you had the Foreman freak show still in town.

The issue I have with Holyfield is that he lost to most of these guys. He lost to Moorer. He lost to Bowe twice. He lost to Lewis twice (that draw was BS).

Holyfield was like the De La Hoya of that group. He had a name and star power and could occasionally pull off a win, but he was not the class of the field.

(I always thought Bowe was the most talented of that group and should have been an all-time great. He was just a head case).

[JMS]

I think the dirty little secret is that Tyson was done before he went to prison.

I think you are right' date=' although Prison hurt him bad... He got hit by a perfect storm of several events which collapsed upon him all at once.

1. I think it started when Cus D'amato died. Tyson's step father. He was the brains and authority figure in Tyson's life. The one guy Tyson really had faith in and trusted. After he was gone Tyson's entire organization fell apart and he was left standing by himself. Tyson didn't trust them and one by one, he fell out with them.. his promoter, his trainer, all the people D'amato set him up with who oversaw the early success of his career. Gone.
   
2. Robin's Given's Tyson's wife was next up. She stole his heart, tricked him, made him look stupid and foolish publicly. He went from the scariest guy on the planet to looking and feeling like a fool.
   
3. Facing Buster Douglass right after Douglas's mother died on what was the best day in Douglas's life exposed Tyson and put the blood in the water.
   
4. Then Prison, 3-4 years of not training, growing, learning, sitting in a cell rotting. Truly greats can come back from this but what was left of Tyson couldn't.
   
5. Finally, Don King..
   

---------- Post added September-27th-2012 at 04:21 PM ----------

(I always thought Bowe was the most talented of that group and should have been an all-time great. He was just a head case).

I like Bowe too.. My biggest problem with him is he ducked Lewis. Any incite into that? It really seemed his camp feared Lewis after Lewis crushed him in the Olympics.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I think you are right, although Prison hurt him bad... He got hit by a perfect storm of several events which collapsed upon him all at once.

[*]I think it started when Cus D'amato died. Tyson's step father. He was the brains and authority figure in Tyson's life. The one guy Tyson really had faith in and trusted. After he was gone Tyson's entire organization fell apart and he was left standing by himself. Tyson didn't trust them and one by one, he fell out with them.. his promoter, his trainer, all the people D'amato set him up with who oversaw the early success of his career. Gone.

I always found this to be a convenient narrative device.

Was D'Amato going to be able to control a 22-year-old Mike Tyson who had millions of dollars? A sick old man living in the mountains? Tyson was (and is) a sociopath and all I think D'Amato can be credited with is hiding him away for a while and giving him a job skill.

I don't even blame Don King that much. King's not the one who took Buster Douglas lightly or got arrested for rape. Tyson should have and would have beaten tomato cans three times a year for six years for hundreds of millions of dollars.

The problem with Tyson apologists is that they all want someone to care for Tyson. They infantalize him.