ES: Just how bad are the Redskins special teams?

[DC9]

An

Thanks. I remember we gave up a 3rd AND a 4th for him. We've fallen such a long way from the glory ST of Marv Levy. To think Allen was a pioneer in prioritizing STs.

True Story:

Back in the 70s we had a Wr named Malinchak (sp?) Who earned a roster spot solely for his ability to block kicks. He retired from football to become a Wall Street executive. George Allen was watching hours of film on the Dallas Cowboys and determined he'd found a weakness in their punt protection schemes. He called up Malinchak and begged him to come out of retirement for the Dallas game. The guy loved Allen so much he took a leave of absence from his cushy Wall Street job, suited up for the game....and sure enough, blocked a punt.

2 weeks in a row with a blocked punt - u can bet teams have found a weakness.

It's a long watch... but they spend about 25 seconds on Danny Smith or Danny Smith players... I believe the punt block you are reffering too is in here towards the begining as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJmfsEecwrA

[Thirtyfive2seven]

I agree completely and would quote the fire danny smith thread but this actually brings valid points to the table. The team may respond more to firing the coach than this accountability. Does that mean Perry Riley will be benched on special teams? Do you think he would actually care? I don't. I think the only way to hold anyone accountable is to fire the coach but is that done in the beginning of the season? mid season? I have no idea.

[bowhunter]

Wow. 1982 and Mosely hitting 95% of his field goals. Wonder what his percentage would be with FIVE blocked ones.... Smith must go

[Oldfan]

Sorry, but after this many years, this excuse is just laughable.

I'm sorry too, but you don't have logic on your side.

By this logic, Jim Zorn should still have a job.

No, by my logic, Jim Zorn's performance would have been judged intelligently. There's no telling how that would have turned out.

he has yet to develop a SINGLE specialist in 8 years.

Not one kicker.

not one punter.

not one returner.

What do you mean by developed? Can you give me a few examples of kickers, punters or returners whose talents were developed at the pro level?

[Bang]

Sorry Oldfan, won't be dragging me into o9ne of your weeklong BS-fests.

no logic on my side.

just numbers.

lots and lots and lots of numbers.

Developed,as in brought into the league and made into players who get better and help the team.

Don't be your usual obtuse self today.

by the time you're finished with your loops there will be no player who has ever developed beyond family genes implanted six generations ago.

~Bang

[DC9]

Bang... that's how you kill someone softly...

The only positive that Danny Smith has (as mentioned in the video I posted) is we've been top 5 in return yards against several times in recent years.

[RVAbrendan]

Get the man some orbitz or something. Dirty coaching? Clean it up!

[Oldfan]

Sorry Oldfan, won't be dragging me into o9ne of your weeklong BS-fests.

If you can't debate your position, trash your opponent?

no logic on my side.

just numbers.

lots and lots and lots of numbers.

So, football stats trump logic?

Developed,as in brought into the league and made into players who get better and help the team.

Don't be your usual obtuse self today.

by the time you're finished with your loops there will be no player who has ever developed beyond family genes implanted six generations ago.

You didn't give examples. How about one? Can you think of one kicker, punter or return man who didn't arrive in the NFL with the talent to excel?

[Bang]

Bang... that's how you kill someone softly...

The only positive that Danny Smith has (as mentioned in the video I posted) is we've been top 5 in return yards against several times in recent years.

Yes,, and that's it.

Conversely, we've aso been among the teams who have kicked off the fewest in the same span... averaging 16 points a game.

~Bang

[WilberMarshall]

Unfortunately it will keep happening. Guys are looking at game film and see a pattern. The punter is slow and methodical in getting off his average punts... and teams have seen that they actually get close to blocking his punts even when they are not trying to block the punts... the only thing I am waiting for is when a short field goal is blocked yet again this season. I just hope we don't find another way to lose ball games this week.

[DC9]

Not too mention kicks out of bounds that were meant to be directional kicks. lol...smh.

---------- Post added September-21st-2012 at 01:05 PM ----------

Unfortunately it will keep happening. Guys are looking at game film and see a pattern. The punter is slow and methodical in getting off his average punts... and teams have seen that they actually get close to blocking his punts even when they are not trying to block the punts... the only thing I am waiting for is when a short field goal is blocked yet again this season. I just hope we don't find another way to lose ball games this week.

Rocca is a very good punter. He is taller and takes longer steps... but he's a very good kicker. The problem is the blocking scheme and the technique.

Wilson, Riley, and Doughty have all been at fault numerous times the last couple of seasons on Special Teams gaffes.

I'm with you though... it seems trivial to us, but one has to wonder what occurs during special teams practice, or what kind of goods Danny Smith has on Dan Snyder.

[Bang]

If you can't debate your position, trash your opponent?

So, football stats trump logic?

You didn't give examples. How about one? Can you think of one kicker, punter or return man who didn't arrive in the NFL with the talent to excel?

Oldfan, let's be clear.

i'm not trashing my opponent.

i'm dismissing you.

I already have no respect for your opinion on this matter, and considering the history of how you 'debate" i am not going to waste time with it. I've been round the block with you before, and it's an utter waste of time.

if you'd like to fully understand my position, there's two big giant merged threads on danny smith that are within the first two pages or so that have oodles of everythingt you could ever want to know.

hope that clears the matter up.

~Bang

[Oldfan]

Oldfan, let's be clear.

i'm not trashing my opponent.

i'm dismissing you.

I already have no respect for your opinion on this matter, and considering the history of how you 'debate" i am not going to waste time with it. I've been round the block with you before, and it's an utter waste of time.

if you'd like to fully understand my position, there's two big giant merged threads on danny smith that are within the first two pages or so that have oodles of everythingt you could ever want to know.

hope that clears the matter up.

~Bang

You opened up this debate with me in Post #25. Now, you want to trash me rather than finish what you started.

Bottom line: You can't argue your position.

[TSO]

Most of those people are the players and coaches. :doh: Who the heck am I to argue against them, but I just don't understand how they continue to back this dude up. I am not expecting them to slam him on camera, but they can at least hop of his bubble gums.....

(Disclaimer: this response is not particularly directed at you MLSKINS though I quoted you, and please everyone read through this entire post before replying in rage, I AM NOT SIMPLY DEFENDING DANNY)

Maybe, just maybe they defend him because of inept offense's (which lead to more punts, longer FG attempts and more opportunities for failure that are magnified since every little thing counts for us) and little to no depth for years that he's had to deal with here? Maybe that's what the coaches who want him see as well? It's getting kind of old to see some of you act like he's indefensible and you "just don't understand why other coaches want him and he seems to be in demand".

I'd love to see his stats compared to other teams who have struggled as much on offense as us the last how many years as well as had such awful depth as we've had.

I want everyone joining in on the bashing of Danny Smith to just ask themselves does he exist in some vacuum? Would some other guy do better knowing full well how poor our depth has been here since he's been on this team? And what are Special Teams made up of? The depth on your football team. I understand Danny has a say in personnel as well, but he can only choose from what's been given. In fact, don't we all know that Danny was willing to leave here if he didn't get to have more say in personnel and Shanahan granted that to him?

I'm NOT saying Smith should be excluded from criticism or that Special Teams haven't been a major issue on our team the last couple years, but I AM tired of those who speak in extreme generalities and do not factor in Smith's environment. I honestly believe that very few coaches could've come on here and done better with what has been given to them. That being said, something NEEDS to change this season. We have better depth this year so Danny has fewer excuses, PERIOD. I've said that a number of times and I'll stand by it... I believe our Special Teams will become a strength over the course of this season because of our depth now. If that doesn't happen, I will gladly (well, no, definitely not gladly since I happen to be a fan of this team and want its success) say I was wrong and that Danny needs to go. But I'm definitely not going to join in the chorus of condemnation going on here without looking at everything the way it should be looked at.

The first game the gaffes occurred because our long snapper broke his arm. I love how everyone keeps bringing up the blocked punts this season and forgetting that part. Of course, there was no excuse for another blocked punt against the Rams, but to say things like "2 blocked punts in 2 games" because it sounds so wonderfully damning shows an agenda not based on truth, but based on something personal. Same goes for last season's blocked FGs. Shanahan has literally stood on the podium and told us WHY that happened... Oline injuries last year killed us and we didn't have the proper depth. We all saw how poorly our offense performed when our linemen first went down last season and we all were so sick about how awful the depth was there, yet Danny doesn't get any benefit of the doubt when HIS TEAM IS MADE UP OF THAT DEPTH? That doesn't matter at all, right? Can we just at least acknowledge it when criticizing him? :whoknows:

Again, for years we've had awful, awful depth. That has been acknowledged by pretty much EVERYONE here. Danny goes into every season here with those guys as his starters. We've all seen how poorly our team performs once just a couple of guys have been lost to injury. Well, who starts in the place of those guys? That awful depth we've had. They then become starters who can't focus on Special Teams as much. Danny then has to deal with even lower string guys who have no business being on an NFL roster. How can this simply be overlooked when criticizing Danny? How?! It's mind-boggling. Like I said, this season IS different... we've got much better depth and so Danny should get his team to perform a lot better. If it doesn't get better, I'll be with most of you here. Still, I'm going to at least acknowledge his environment and be fair about it.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Bottom line tso, regardless of environment and 'tools', or lack there of whichever coach has to work with; if his unit consistently fails (as Smith's has in most every facet through 9 years); the buck has to stop with him.

That might not be right. That might not even be perceived as fair in certain circumstances.

But the buck has to stop with him if his charges consistently come up short. That's why he gets paid the big bucks. (In relation to you or I.).

Hail.

[TSO]

Bottom line tso, regardless of environment and 'tools', or lack there of whichever coach has to work with; if his unit has consistently failed in most every facet through 9 years, the buck has to stop with him.

That might not be right. That might not even be perceived as fair in certain circumstances.

But the buck has to stop with him if his charges consistently come up short. That's why he gets paid the big bucks. (In relation to you or I.).

Hail.

I totally agree. But I want to see how he does this entire season with better depth for once. We're the most deep we've been since he's been here. If his team doesn't improve, you know I'll stand by my word.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I totally agree. But I want to see how he does this entire season with better depth for once. We're the most deep we've been since he's been here. If his team doesn't improve, you know I'll stand by my word.

And I'm sure you'll get that.

The first 2 of 16 games isn't putting him in any better light with that improved depth however.

Hail.

[PortisBetts]

You opened up this debate with me in Post #25. Now, you want to trash me rather than finish what you started.

Bottom line: You can't argue your position.

David akers. And are actually defending Danny Smith? The numbers pretty much show his units are terrible. If i was a manager, and my team was consistently in the bottom half of the company, hell, bottom third, i would be fired.

[TSO]

And I'm sure you'll get that.

The first 2 of 16 games isn't putting him in any better light with that improved depth.

Hail.

No, unfortunately they're not. But they ARE just 2 games in a 16 game season. Furthermore, his long snapper had his arm broken causing the major gaffes that occurred in the first game. Again, I won't look at things in a vacuum. But the 2nd blocked punt was inexcusable. And Brandon Banks fumbling so liberally lately is as well, even though he gets it back every time. Danny needs to get on top of those things and I think he will.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

FWIW tso, I hope your correct and we end up with a stellar teams unit in all facets by years end. That would only benefit us all.

Sadly, as we currently stand, I don't think I'm being premature in thinking we'll have both a new STC and DC on staff next year due to the failings of the incumbents in both positions this.

Hail.

[CrypticVillain]

(Disclaimer: this response is not particularly directed at you MLSKINS though I quoted you, and please everyone read through this entire post before replying in rage, I AM NOT SIMPLY DEFENDING DANNY)

(stuff about depth)

Okay, I here what you are saying. But if you had a bad season last year and you follow it up by allowing punts in back to back games, why should I give you the benefit of doubt? But we know Shanny will and we will see how it looks after this season. I want to be wrong about Danny Smith.

[Oldfan]

Bottom line tso, regardless of environment and 'tools', or lack there of whichever coach has to work with; if his unit consistently fails (as Smith's has in most every facet through 9 years); the buck has to stop with him.

That might not be right. That might not even be perceived as fair in certain circumstances.

But the buck has to stop with him if his charges consistently come up short. That's why he gets paid the big bucks. (In relation to you or I.).

Hail.

Nah.

Let's suppose we had marvelous piece of software that could spit out an accurate grade for the personnel a coach has to work with and we know that he was given personnel that ranked 25th in the league. Then, we have another marvelous piece of software that accurately measured the performance of his unit.

If the performance grade ranked 16th, we might give the coach an A;

If the performance grade ranked 25th, we might give the coach a C;

If the performance grade ranked 32nd, we might give the coach a failing grade.

But, without those two marvelous pieces of software, we fans can't grade coaches intelligently. We have to hope that their superiors have a lot more informaqtion on them than we do to make those decisions.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

But we don't have that Of.

What we do know is how consistently bad his unit stacks up on penalties against other teams. How consistently bad kickers under his charge have been. How consistently bad the return game under him has been. There's only his coverage units that have come out with any real pluses over the duration. And even they are often penalty blighted.

Now you can argue away about a lack of 'tools' to work with. But the bottom line, rightly or wrongly, is a coach is charged with teaching and improving those under him. And when, for whatever reason, that doesn't happen, the buck has to stop with him.

Life sucks and can be unfair at times. But I don't have to tell you that's the way it is. And if you accept the responsibility of being a handsomely rewarded coach, you accept the consequences if your charges fail. However poor they may be perceived to be.

Hail.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

You didn't give examples. How about one? Can you think of one kicker, punter or return man who didn't arrive in the NFL with the talent to excel?

Brandon Banks.

[Dallsux]

“It’s not a coaching issue,” said linebacker Lorenzo Alexander. “It’s accountability on the players. It’s not executing. It’s just like anything else: If [quarterback] Robert [Griffin III] goes out there and throws an interception, do you blame [offensive coordinator] Kyle [shanahan] because he threw the interception? If someone goes out there on special teams, misses a block, and he’s being coached, being taught [correctly], do you blame Danny? No.

“Special teams is one of those nuances that people really don’t understand,” he continued. “They just see people flying around. Until you get the nitty-gritty of it and understand everything about special teams, you really can’t appreciate what Danny Smith brings to the table as a coach and a person.”

I love Alexander as a player, but he needs to stop trying to pull the wool over our eyes. Your average fan who doesn't understand the aspects of the game might not get the nuances of ST...but then we're not your average fans [here on ES]. Danny Smith's ST have been downright dreadful over the years & it seems they are only getting worse. 2 blocked punts allowed 2 weeks in a row is devastating. Had that NOT happened in New Orleans, we win by 15 points, a blowout by all reason. And we possibly win in St. Louis. Anything that shows you're repressing & not progressing is a bad thing.

For far too long now, when Washington’s special teams unit comes into the spotlight, it’s for all the wrong reasons. I like Smith as a person and wouldn’t be surprised if the team let him go and he succeeded elsewhere. But his body of work over the last eight plus seasons shows me little reason why he should remain prominently involved with such an underwhelming aspect of this rebuilding franchise.

I couldn't agree more, Murf. Good write-up.