ES: Just how bad are the Redskins special teams?

[pjfootballer]

Quoted for emphasis. Theses numbers do not lie....

Know what that nine year avearge is? 21st. 21 out of 32 teams, putting us towards the bottom half of the league. Fire Danny Smith.

---------- Post added September-21st-2012 at 04:25 PM ----------

Well for a franchise that was once famous for its' "Hogs," it's a strange state of affairs that our new identifier is the 'Special" teams "Fainting Goats"

You just came up with a new nickname for that unit. BRAVO!!

[Oldfan]

Well, I get that we are not abreast of the intricacies of the coaching staff and what goes on inside Redskins park…but that’s what message boards are for. For us fans to speculate, based on results. And, even by casually reminiscing on our ST unit as a whole, it has been very underwhelming. Not sure how you can deny that. When the offense has had issues, the coach is gone. Defense? Gone. GM? Gone. Why is Danny any different? It’s just weird to me…

I don't know why Danny is highly regarded by coaches and players. I'm not arguing that Smith is a good coach. I don't really know.

What I am sure about is that there is no intelligent way for us to grade him. The argument in the OP is not persuasive at all. Those DVOA stats don't measure the quality of the coaching.

[pjfootballer]

(Again, for years we've had awful, awful depth. That has been acknowledged by pretty much EVERYONE here. Danny goes into every season here with those guys as his starters. We've all seen how poorly our team performs once just a couple of guys have been lost to injury. Well, who starts in the place of those guys? That awful depth we've had. They then become starters who can't focus on Special Teams as much. Danny then has to deal with even lower string guys who have no business being on an NFL roster. How can this simply be overlooked when criticizing Danny? How?! It's mind-boggling. Like I said, this season IS different... we've got much better depth and so Danny should get his team to perform a lot better. If it doesn't get better, I'll be with most of you here. Still, I'm going to at least acknowledge his environment and be fair about it.

Other teams have sucked just as bad as we have over the last 9 years. Those teams have had little to no depth either, yet they don't have 8 blocks in 18 games. Depth is an excuse. If Smith was such a great coach he could develop these guys.

[Dallsux]

If your GM is at fault for providing low caliber talent, but you hold the coach responsible for not getting grade A results, then you could be firing a Grade A coach and keeping a lousy GM. But, if that's what you think is best...

Although your argument is valid under different circumstances, they don't apply here. In his time here, there has been at least 2 official GMs over Smith.

Your argument is that the GM is the dud, not the coach (or potentially). Since he has remained in his job thru 2 GMs, obviously it isn't the GM that's the problem.

So, is your logic that if the first GM was incompetent, the second must be competent?

---------- Post added September-21st-2012 at 03:29 PM ----------

The remarks you quoted didn't say that at all.

Charlie Casserly GM, Joe Gibbs as GM, Vinny Cerrato and the Allen/Shanahan team as GM... while we both hope that our roster is on the upgrade, what evidence is there that any of these men, with different philosophies, had success as GMs in their careers? The Skins have lacked talent on offense, defense and special teams for years.

---------- Post added September-21st-2012 at 03:58 PM ----------

I said that Danny has "input" just as the other coaches do. Mike Shanahan has the final say.

I'm replying to a debate point made by another poster.

You quoted me, replying to another poster, then accuse me of misquoting you? :whoknows:

No I didn't say that.

You didn't? Look up.

You misquoted me twice and faulted me for replying to a debate point made by another poster.

We're done.

It seems you are starting to get confused. You make the point that the GM is at fault, then say that Shanny is the one who makes the final decision. And as I said, since Smith has been here much longer than Shanny has, it's impossible to lay blame on Shanny's shoulders for how the ST was performing prior to his arrival.

[Oldfan]

Maybe you can't, but the rest of us can see that his players don't perform well. As has been pointed out in numerous posts, players are undiscplined & commit a multitude of penalties...repeatedly. We are seeing blocked kicks, blocked punts, bad blocking, bad techniques, etc. on a regular basis. On the other side, we NEVER block punts & on the rare ocassion, we'll have a blocked kick (the last memorable one was Nov. 5, 2006, but not sure if there has been one since). We haven't seen a blocked punt in our favor since....I can't even remember when.

So, how is it that all other things that happen are the coach's fault, except this one? You can't blame Shanny for Danny Smith's poorly performing ST. Smith has been here longer than him. In fact, our ST has been essentially the same, save for the personnel changes over the years, thru 2 (and 1/3) GMs & at least 4 HCs. You're telling me that it was all THEIR faults our ST have been terrible?

We have seen the offense change numerous times, the defense change numerous times, the ST...stayed the same. But somehow, the turnstyle of coaches & GMs...it's their fault for the lackluster performance of the ST. Not the ST coach, oh no, not HIS fault. It's everyone else's fault. Gotcha.

What you offered here is not an argument, but a series of unsupported claims. It's a mini-rant.

[Riggo-toni]

So what about the pesky detail that Buffalo's STs sucked while he was there, that Chad Morton lit them up? The Jets up until maybe the last few years under Ryan had poor personnel guys, but their ST coach is the best. Granted, his stats used to get padded by spanking Smith 2x a year, but still....

Perhaps now a certain someone would care to compose an epic, or at least an ode, praising the mighty virtues of LeCharls McDaniel and his unceremonius dismissal from his rightful station......if only the gods had blessed him with a good GM....

[pjfootballer]

I'm sorry too, but you don't have logic on your side.

No, by my logic, Jim Zorn's performance would have been judged intelligently. There's no telling how that would have turned out.

Every single thread:

Oldfan- I bring logic so therefore I'm right.

ES- Doesn't bring logic therefore they are wrong.

What do think this is, a philosophy class? We're talking about football. Everything doesn't always have to be an in-depth philosophical analysis. Can't you just talk football for once... you know, like a normal person? Probably not. Go on Fredrich Nietzsche.

[Oldfan]

...It seems you are starting to get confused. You make the point that the GM is at fault, then say that Shanny is the one who makes the final decision. And as I said, since Smith has been here much longer than Shanny has, it's impossible to lay blame on Shanny's shoulders for how the ST was performing prior to his arrival.

You are completely befuddled. You misquoted me twice. Now you are implying that I'm blaming Shanahan for the Special teams prior to his arrival. How in the hell did you come up with that?

Look, my position is really dirt simple. You cannot grade a coaching performance unless you can grade the personnel he coaches.

---------- Post added September-21st-2012 at 04:50 PM ----------

Every single thread:

Oldfan- I bring logic so therefore I'm right.

ES- Doesn't bring logic therefore they are wrong.

What do think this is, a philosophy class? We're talking about football. Everything doesn't always have to be an in-depth philosophical analysis. Can't you just talk football for once... you know, like a normal person? Probably not. Go on Fredrich Nietzsche.

You seem to be saying that logic has no place in Football discussions. Hmmm. Well, that would explain many of your posts.

[Dallsux]

What you offered here is not an argument, but a series of unsupported claims. It's a mini-rant.

I see how you operate. You can make unsupported claims based on your opinions, but no one else can. You offered an argument, made a statement that was unsupported by history. I, as well as others, have shown you where your unsupported claims are incorrect. You have YET to offer a counter-argument other than double-talk & efforts to change the topic.

The numbers are there. Accept them, don't accept them, makes no difference to me. The fact remains, you can't blame a GM or coach who wasn't here 4 years ago for how the ST performed then.

[pjfootballer]

You seem to be saying that logic has no place in Football discussions. Hmmm. Well, that would explain many of your posts.

And this post would explain why you are one of the most disliked posters in here.

[Dallsux]

You are completely befuddled. You misquoted me twice. Now you are implying that I'm blaming Shanahan for the Special teams prior to his arrival. How in the hell did you come up with that?

I'm befuddled now? Ok.

Well, I was simply trying to understand where you were coming from. Where did I misquote you twice? Show me.

Look, my position is really dirt simple. You cannot grade a coaching performance unless you can grade the personnel he coaches.

Really? Because it seemed like you were trying to say that it's the HC or the GMs fault for how the ST performs, not Smith's.

[Oldfan]

I see how you operate. You can make unsupported claims based on your opinions, but no one else can.

I made no claims at all. I offered a conclusion supported by logical reasoning.

You offered an argument, made a statement that was unsupported by history.

Your "history" is BS. My argument explained why.

I, as well as others, have shown you where your unsupported claims are incorrect.

More BS.

You have YET to offer a counter-argument other than double-talk & efforts to change the topic.

I did not change the topic. You couldn't keep up because you confused yourself by misquoting me twice.

The numbers are there. Accept them, don't accept them, makes no difference to me.

The numbers are bogus.

The fact remains, you can't blame a GM or coach who wasn't here 4 years ago for how the ST performed then.

I still can't figure out how you came up with this silliness.

---------- Post added September-21st-2012 at 05:14 PM ----------

. Where did I misquote you twice? Show me.

Again? Once isn't enough?

Really? Because it seemed like you were trying to say that it's the HC or the GMs fault for how the ST performs, not Smith's.

I don't want to hear what it "seemed like" to you. If you claim I said that, quote me.

[wildbill1952]

Just curious.

Is there a reason there's a linebacker in the guard position instead of some of that "quality depth on the OLine" we've heard so much about. Historically, OL depth, or even starters, played on special teams, especially at the positions where blocking is needed. i.e the middle of the OL, where a block is most likely to come from. Make the big boys run.

It's easier to teach a lineman to run downfield than it is to teach linebackers to block. Both may be ugly, but two blocks in two weeks requires some sort of change. Change the personnel before you change the coach. Easier to do.

[Bang]

And so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes as it does everytime Oldfan rears his head.

But i didn't say that, oh yes you did, oh no i didn't, what i said was, well, you just don't, oh i didn't say that, oh yes you did...

I think he actually IS Danny Smith.

It would make perfect sense.

~Bang

[Oldfan]

And this post would explain why you are one of the most disliked posters in here.

Could you provide a link to that poll, please?

---------- Post added September-21st-2012 at 05:20 PM ----------

And so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes as it does everytime Oldfan rears his head.

I think he actually IS Danny Smith.

It would make perfect sense.

~bang

Ah... I haven't been the one going on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on about Danny Smith.

[JoeSkins]

Is there a reason there's a linebacker in the guard position instead of some of that "quality depth on the OLine" we've heard so much about. Historically, OL depth, or even starters, played on special teams, especially at the positions where blocking is needed. i.e the middle of the OL, where a block is most likely to come from. Make the big boys run.

It's easier to teach a lineman to run downfield than it is to teach linebackers to block. Both may be ugly, but two blocks in two weeks requires some sort of change. Change the personnel before you change the coach. Easier to do.

I don't really see a problem with it. The linemen will never be fast enough to get very far down the field before the ball lands and also never practice open-field tackles. A linebacker can be taught to hold a block for a second or two, and is way better-suited for the pursuit part of the play, which is almost always more important. It's not really a problem of Riley being on the unit altogether.

[Bang]

Ah... I haven't been the one going on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on about Danny Smith.

I saw a puppy today.

~Bang

[manifested]

I lurk around a lot, don't post much so take this for what it is.

It's possible Danny Smith is in fact a fine football coach. Other coaches and players seem to back him up so there's something to that. But what I have yet to hear is a plausible reason why his teams have been prone to these types of catastrophic mistakes over the last two years, when the depth on the team has gotten progressively better. Very few teams are stacked with players who come out of college with extensive experience on special teams. From my untrained perspective, avoiding disaster in blocking and coverage would seem to be some of the most coach-dependent aspects of the game. They rely as much on discipline, hustle, and teamwork as they do on talent. The coverage has been mostly ok. The blocking has been a travesty.

I can give a pass to Smith for mediocre or sub-par returns or inconsistent punting/placekicking because these are more heavily weighted to specialists which is a personnel issue. But I can't recall another team in football which has had 7 blocked kicks over 18 games. If the cause is not a poor coaching job, then what is the alternative hypothesis? If Danny Smith is not THE problem (or at least A problem), then I would like to hear an argument positing a different cause.

[Dallsux]

And so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes, and so it goes as it does everytime Oldfan rears his head.

But i didn't say that, oh yes you did, oh no i didn't, what i said was, well, you just don't, oh i didn't say that, oh yes you did...

I think he actually IS Danny Smith.

It would make perfect sense.

~Bang

Yeah, I think I'm done with this.

I feel like I'm either Andrew Dice Clay or Ed O'Neil from 'Adventures of Ford Fairlane' when they start arguing about who the jerkoff is because "I calll you a jerkoff." "No, you are because I call you a jerkoff...jerkoff."

Unreal.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Now boys, play nice. No need to start insulting long standing members because we disagree.

Or I'm telling tso's better half on y'all.

And you DON'T want Mrs tso involved! Screens will CRACK! That's all I'm saying. You've been warned!

Hail.

[TSO]

Other teams have sucked just as bad as we have over the last 9 years. Those teams have had little to no depth either, yet they don't have 8 blocks in 18 games. Depth is an excuse. If Smith was such a great coach he could develop these guys.

lol, 8 blocks in 18 games. Boy, it must be fun throwing up the same numbers we all know in a different way. Let me think of a new one. 8 blocks within a year! 6 blocks last season and 2 already now! 6 FGs blocked and 2 punts blocked within a matter of 9 months! OMG!!!!

You know, we've had Danny here for how long now? Haven't the blocks been an exception that started to rear their ugly head only recently? Wasn't one of the reasons we let Gano go (who hasn't been picked up by anyone yet by the way) because his FG attempts came out low and were easier to block? Didn't our long snapper break his arm on the play that directly lead to the first block this year? It's still on Danny that those things happened, I agree. But how can you just put those numbers up with a straight face and ignore those things? Seriously?

Show me these other teams you mention and show me if they have smallish ZBS Olinemen making up the majority of their line to start with little depth behind them. I'll wait. And wait some more.

Then I'll continue to accept Mike's word over yours on the matter.

And, damnit, I'll say it once more. I AM NOT DEFENDING THE GAFFES on Special Team. I am, however, understanding how they've come about and I refuse to simply overlook everything else. If Danny's group doesn't improve over the course of this season I'll want him gone as well. For now, I expect they will. Is this difficult to understand or are you going to respond again with some stat without context?

[Bang]

Yeah, I think I'm done with this.

I feel like I'm either Andrew Dice Clay or Ed O'Neil from 'Adventures of Ford Fairlane' when they start arguing about who the jerkoff is because "I calll you a jerkoff." "No, you are because I call you a jerkoff...jerkoff."

Unreal.

A VERY underrated movie!

I love when he falls off the building and worrries about his hair on the way down.

~Bang

[TSO]

Now boys, play nice. No need to start insulting long standing members because we disagree.

Or I'm telling tso's better half on y'all.

And you DON'T want Mrs tso involved! Screens will CRACK! That's all I'm saying. You've been warned!

Hail.

Listen to this man.

[Dallsux]

A VERY underrated movie!

I love when he falls off the building and worrries about his hair on the way down.

~Bang

Yeah, it's one of my favorites.

"You're 10 seconds away from the most embarrassing moment of your life!"

[Oldfan]

I lurk around a lot, don't post much so take this for what it is.

It's possible Danny Smith is in fact a fine football coach. Other coaches and players seem to back him up so there's something to that. But what I have yet to hear is a plausible reason why his teams have been prone to these types of catastrophic mistakes over the last two years, when the depth on the team has gotten progressively better. Very few teams are stacked with players who come out of college with extensive experience on special teams. From my untrained perspective, avoiding disaster in blocking and coverage would seem to be some of the most coach-dependent aspects of the game. They rely as much on discipline, hustle, and teamwork as they do on talent. The coverage has been mostly ok. The blocking has been a travesty.

I can give a pass to Smith for mediocre or sub-par returns or inconsistent punting/placekicking because these are more heavily weighted to specialists which is a personnel issue. But I can't recall another team in football which has had 7 blocked kicks over 18 games. If the cause is not a poor coaching job, then what is the alternative hypothesis? If Danny Smith is not THE problem (or at least A problem), then I would like to hear an argument positing a different cause.

It doesn't matter whether we are talking about offense, defense or special teams. If a play fails, the fault might be with the coaching, the players, or a combination of both. Usually it's poor execution by the players because the players are a bigger factor than the coaching. I'd estimate it's 80/20 players/coaches.

So, you can't grade a coaching performance on team results. In other words, you can't logically conclude that a coach who wins 10 games is better than the coach who won five because the talent on each roster is a huge factor. The same applies to grading special teams coaches.