ES: Just how bad are the Redskins special teams?

[Oldfan]

But we don't have that Of.

What we do know is how consistently bad his unit stacks up on penalties against other teams. How consistently bad kickers under his charge have been. How consistently bad the return game under him has been. There's only his coverage units that have come out with any real pluses over the duration. And even they are often penalty blighted.

Now you can argue away about a lack of 'tools' to work with. But the bottom line, rightly or wrongly, is a coach is charged with teaching and improving those under him. And when, for whatever reason, that doesn't happen, the buck has to stop with him.

Life sucks and can be unfair at times. But I don't have to tell you that's the way it is. And if you accept the responsibility of being a handsomely rewarded coach, you accept the consequences if your charges fail. However poor they may be perceived to be.

Hail.

If your GM is at fault for providing low caliber talent, but you hold the coach responsible for not getting grade A results, then you could be firing a Grade A coach and keeping a lousy GM. But, if that's what you think is best...

[KCClybun]

If your GM is at fault for providing low caliber talent, but you hold the coach responsible for not getting grade A results, then you could be firing a Grade A coach and keeping a lousy GM. But, if that's what you think is best...

Just as a little gem, Danny is really the one who gets to say who does and doesn't play teams. Part of the reason Brandyn Thompson isn't here anymore is because Danny didn't like him on teams. Pretty much the whole reason Brandon Banks is still here is because Danny was banging the table for him during cuts. He's got a fair bit of control over the personnel on special teams under Mike (Mike could certainly always overrule him, but still).

[Oldfan]

Just as a little gem, Danny is really the one who gets to say who does and doesn't play teams. Part of the reason Brandyn Thompson isn't here anymore is because Danny didn't like him on teams. Pretty much the whole reason Brandon Banks is still here is because Danny was banging the table for him during cuts. He's got a fair bit of control over the personnel on special teams under Mike (Mike could certainly always overrule him, but still).

I understand that. All the coaches have some input into who stays and plays. But, they might be picking from a weak roster or from a strong one depending upon the work of the front office and the scouting.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

If your GM is at fault for providing low caliber talent, but you hold the coach responsible for not getting grade A results, then you could be firing a Grade A coach and keeping a lousy GM. But, if that's what you think is best...

Regular players aside, that's to presume the STC has no say in who the specialists are under his charge. Most notably in the kicking game. I happen to think he does and those ones aren't on any GM or HC.

Hail.

[RVAbrendan]

But that is how every team is essentially operating - you hire the coaches in order to squeeze the most talent out of your brigade. Since every ST coach is abiding by this rule, Smith shouldn't get a pass just because he has to cook with his boss's recipe...

[Oldfan]

Regular players aside, that's to presume the STC has no say in who the specialists are under his charge. Most notably in the kicking game. I happen to think he does and those ones aren't on any GM or HC.

Hail.

I think you're wrong. Players are obtained by spending cap dollars and/or draft picks. I seriously doubt that Danny Smith has the final say on anybody. Is he asked for his input? Sure. All the coaches probably lobby for money and picks to be spent on their units. We are told that Kaz really wanted Atogwe.

[Dallsux]

If your GM is at fault for providing low caliber talent, but you hold the coach responsible for not getting grade A results, then you could be firing a Grade A coach and keeping a lousy GM. But, if that's what you think is best...

Although your argument is valid under different circumstances, they don't apply here. In his time here, there has been at least 2 official GMs over Smith.

[Oldfan]

Although your argument is valid under different circumstances, they don't apply here. In his time here, there has been at least 2 official GMs over Smith.

I'm not seeing your point.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I think you're wrong. Players are obtained by spending cap dollars and/or draft picks. I seriously doubt that Danny Smith has the final say on anybody. Is he asked for his input? Sure. All the coaches probably lobby for money and picks to be spent on their units. We are told that Kaz really wanted Atogwe.

I guess without being on the inside we'll never know, but I think it's, shall we say 'naive' with all due respect, to not think a special teams coach scouts, identifies, and has a major role in who his kickers are outside of those he inherits. Of course the GM and HC have the final say. But I personally have always believed more than any other position the specialists on teams are acquired more than anything on what the teams coach wants.

If they aren't, then I think we seriously need to look at the way we conduct things.

Hail.

[Dallsux]

I'm not seeing your point.

Your argument is that the GM is the dud, not the coach (or potentially). Since he has remained in his job thru 2 GMs, obviously it isn't the GM that's the problem.

[Oldfan]

I guess without being on the inside we'll never know, but I think it's, shall we say 'naive' with all due respect, to not think a special teams coach scouts, identifies, and has a major role in who his kickers are outside of those he inherits. Of course the GM and HC have the final say. But I personally have always believed more than any other position the specialists on teams are acquired more than anything on what the teams coach wants.

If they aren't, then I think we seriously need to look at the way we conduct things.

Hail.

I can't imagine what scouting expertise Danny might have on punters and kickers that ordinary scouts don't have. You measure distance; you measure hangtime; you time the lapse between the catch and the punt: you gather data on consistency. There's no way in hell to tell you if a college player will fold under NFL pressure.

[Dallsux]

I think you're wrong. Players are obtained by spending cap dollars and/or draft picks. I seriously doubt that Danny Smith has the final say on anybody. Is he asked for his input? Sure. All the coaches probably lobby for money and picks to be spent on their units. We are told that Kaz really wanted Atogwe.

Really? You don't think Danny Smith has any say on who is on ST & who isn't? So, at the end of TC every year, when they are cutting the roster down to 53 & they are trying to decide who goes on ST because they don't necessarily fit anywhere else, but they want to keep the talent, you think Danny Smith isn't in the room saying, "this guy stays, this guy goes"?

[Oldfan]

Your argument is that the GM is the dud, not the coach (or potentially). Since he has remained in his job thru 2 GMs, obviously it isn't the GM that's the problem.

So, is your logic that if the first GM was incompetent, the second must be competent?

---------- Post added September-21st-2012 at 03:29 PM ----------

Really? You don't think Danny Smith has any say on who is on ST & who isn't? ...

The remarks you quoted didn't say that at all.

[Dallsux]

So, is your logic that if the first GM was incompetent, the second must be competent?

No, I'm simply saying that you argued that the GM could be the problem. The problem with your argument is that there have been 2 GMs.

They could both be incompetent (although, so far, evidence is pointing to the contrary), but I find it difficult to believe that 2 separate people with 2 very different philosophies on how to build a team are going to have exactly the same issue in personnel decisions & thereby exonerating the ST coach as the cause of the problem.

Yes, in certain situations (and even in previous situations), it is very possible that the GM is the problem & not the coach. But this particular coach has been thru 2 GMs. It is highly doubtful the GM is the problem here.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

..... Yes, in certain situations (and even in previous situations), it is very possible that the GM is the problem & not the coach. But this particular coach has been thru 2 GMs. It is highly doubtful the GM is the problem here.

2 and a half GM's. 2 and a 3rd maybe. Including lil' Danny who was attached at the hip in decision making to the bug eyed loon.

Hail.

[Dallsux]

So, is your logic that if the first GM was incompetent, the second must be competent?

---------- Post added September-21st-2012 at 03:29 PM ----------

The remarks you quoted didn't say that at all.

Well then, what did they say, because what I read is that you doubt the ST coach has a final say on his roster spots. He can request for players to stay & "lobby" for players, but as for who stays & who goes, regardless of what Danny Smith says, the GM (I'm assuming is where you are going with that) is the one who ultimately has final say.

I'm getting the impression, quite possibly falsly, that you don't like the GM? Correct me if I'm wrong.

---------- Post added September-21st-2012 at 02:39 PM ----------

2 and a half GM's. 2 and a 3rd maybe. Including lil' Danny who was attached at the hip in decision making to the bug eyed loon.

Hail.

LOL, well, I was trying to avoid going there. That was never "official"

[Bang]

Interesting how every other unit has been getting better.. but one is getting worse. (which is hard to do, considering the numbers in the OP.)

During some of the worst coaching / GM tenures we've had here we've had defenses that place in the top ten. Same GMs.

Joe Gibbs was bringing in talent for Danny Smith... result- failure. Then we had Vinny- result, failure. now we have Allen,, result - failure.

Argument invalid.

every special teams coach in the NFL has to deal with young players and bubble players. if our special teams were consistently average, or ever showed any improvement at all, i might listen to the "He can only work with what he's given" argument.

But they don't, ever. He can't work with anything he's given. Even his "aces'.. guys like alexdander and Doughty,, guys who have been on his special teams for more than 5 straight years.. these guys still commit sloppy undisciplined penalties every single week.

The numbers that have been painstakingly laid out over the last several years and collected in many many threads... and finally summed up in the OP of this thread .. these numbers DO NOT BEAR OUT THE GM ARGUMENT.

No matter WHO is signing the talent, our special teams underperform. Our defenses don't, Our offenses manage to win a few games.. our special teams blow every single year. Our kickers miss multiple FGs every year, no matter who it is. Veteran, rookie, players to develop.. they never do.

Our special teams vets commit atrocious penalties every single year, every single WEEK. our return units go NOWHERE, and "Mr. Electric Brandon banks" hasn't done anything but fumble in two years.

And that is why I trash "you" oldfan, because your argument is based in nothing at all resembling reality. And no matter hw many different ways reality is served to you, you absolutely steadfastly refuse to acknowledge it.

And it's par for the course. I did open this "discussion" to laugh at your logic on this matter. I choose to not bother with your usual idiotic arguments, as they do not in any way pertain to the reality of what happens on the field.

I have been carrying this argument for three years. i've directed you to where you can find it. I have a position to defend.. it's just pointless defending it to you.

You can go read the years worth of posts collected in those merged threads, and you can read me defend every one of my points over and over.

I'll even save you the trouble of going to look it all up yourself.

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?334030-Why-Was-Danny-Smith-Allowed-To-Keep-A-Job-The-all-things-Danny-Smith-Thread(Merged-amp-M.E.T.)&highlight=danny+smith

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?354019-Dispelling-another-myth-about-Danny-Smith-s-Unit-Special-Teams-Penalties-UPDATED-BY-REQUEST-THROUGH-WEEK-2-of-2012-SEASON.-Details-in-OP.&highlight=danny+smith

You're late to the party.

~Bang

[Oldfan]

No, I'm simply saying that you argued that the GM could be the problem. The problem with your argument is that there have been 2 GMs.

They could both be incompetent (although, so far, evidence is pointing to the contrary), but I find it difficult to believe that 2 separate people with 2 very different philosophies on how to build a team are going to have exactly the same issue in personnel decisions & thereby exonerating the ST coach as the cause of the problem.

Yes, in certain situations (and even in previous situations), it is very possible that the GM is the problem & not the coach. But this particular coach has been thru 2 GMs. It is highly doubtful the GM is the problem here.

Charlie Casserly GM, Joe Gibbs as GM, Vinny Cerrato and the Allen/Shanahan team as GM... while we both hope that our roster is on the upgrade, what evidence is there that any of these men, with different philosophies, had success as GMs in their careers? The Skins have lacked talent on offense, defense and special teams for years.

---------- Post added September-21st-2012 at 03:58 PM ----------

Well then, what did they say, because what I read is that you doubt the ST coach has a final say on his roster spots. He can request for players to stay & "lobby" for players, but as for who stays & who goes, regardless of what Danny Smith says, the GM (I'm assuming is where you are going with that) is the one who ultimately has final say.

I said that Danny has "input" just as the other coaches do. Mike Shanahan has the final say.

[RVAbrendan]

Charlie Casserly GM, Joe Gibbs as GM, Vinny Cerrato and the Allen/Shanahan team as GM... while we both hope that our roster is on the upgrade, what evidence is there that any of these men, with different philosophies, had success as GMs in their careers? The Skins have lacked talent on offense, defense and special teams for years.

Allen has a better-than-average track record...

Every ST coach has to 'work with what they've got', so you can't really give Danny the ole pass. Obviously, he can't play on the field, but watching blocked kicks, punts, and terrible disciplinary bone-headed penalties year after year is getting tiresome. I just find it odd that you seem to pass the blame to everybody excluding Danny...

[Bang]

Allen has a better-than-average track record...

Every ST coach has to 'work with what they've got', so you can't really give Danny the ole pass. Obviously, he can't play on the field, but watching blocked kicks, punts, and terrible disciplinary bone-headed penalties year after year is getting tiresome. I just find it odd that you seem to pass the blame to everybody excluding Danny...

because it's not Danny's fault. he can only work with what they give him, he has no say in what they do on the field, he can't control them at all. He is just a victim of the whole thing.

No other coach in the history of this team has been rewarded for failure like Smith has,, except one.

Norv.

Now how many people needed all of norv's full tenure to become convinced that he was not a good head coach?

and why did anyone decide that?

Performance. That is what coaches are judged on. Period.

Other coaches who are here get better performance out of the same players.

Last year the excuse for the blocked kicks was inexperienced linemen forced into action by injuries, and yet these same inexperienced linemen do quite well as run blockers and pass blockers. (2 of them have worked their way into the starting five) It's just when they come to field goals that they are inept.

Dang that GM!

~Bang

[Oldfan]

Allen has a better-than-average track record...

Details please. I'm unaware that Allen was an actual GM, with the final say on personnel at any of his previous jobs. He doesn't have that responsibility here.

Every ST coach has to 'work with what they've got', so you can't really give Danny the ole pass. Obviously, he can't play on the field, but watching blocked kicks, punts, and terrible disciplinary bone-headed penalties year after year is getting tiresome. I just find it odd that you seem to pass the blame to everybody excluding Danny...

I make the case that we fans cannot judge Danny's work intelligently. How is that passing the blame to others?

[Dallsux]

Charlie Casserly GM, Joe Gibbs as GM, Vinny Cerrato and the Allen/Shanahan team as GM... while we both hope that our roster is on the upgrade, what evidence is there that any of these men, with different philosophies, had success as GMs in their careers? The Skins have lacked talent on offense, defense and special teams for years.

You are going off topic from your own argument.

You said simply that the product on the field is a result of the GM, not the coach. That the ST coach has little to do with final say of roster spots & that quite possibly, the reason the product on the field is NOT Smith's fault, but rather that of the GM.

This has NOTHING to do with how successful any of these GMs have been in their careers. We're not talking about how successful the GMs have been. We're talking about how much control the ST coach has under the GM & how his input is irrelevent (according to you) when it comes to how poorly the ST have performed on the field under Danny Smith.

Don't try to change the subject because you have no answer for the argument. Please stay on topic. Thanks. :thumbsup:

[Oldfan]

You are going off topic from your own argument.

I'm replying to a debate point made by another poster.

You said simply that the product on the field is a result of the GM, not the coach.

No I didn't say that.

Don't try to change the subject because you have no answer for the argument. Please stay on topic.

You misquoted me twice and faulted me for replying to a debate point made by another poster.

We're done.

[RVAbrendan]

Details please. I'm unaware that Allen was an actual GM, with the final say on personnel at any of his previous jobs. He doesn't have that responsibility here.

I make the case that we fans cannot judge Danny's work intelligently. How is that passing the blame to others?

Well, I get that we are not abreast of the intricacies of the coaching staff and what goes on inside Redskins park…but that’s what message boards are for. For us fans to speculate, based on results. And, even by casually reminiscing on our ST unit as a whole, it has been very underwhelming. Not sure how you can deny that. When the offense has had issues, the coach is gone. Defense? Gone. GM? Gone. Why is Danny any different? It’s just weird to me…

[Dallsux]

Details please. I'm unaware that Allen was an actual GM, with the final say on personnel at any of his previous jobs. He doesn't have that responsibility here.

I make the case that we fans cannot judge Danny's work intelligently. How is that passing the blame to others?

Maybe you can't, but the rest of us can see that his players don't perform well. As has been pointed out in numerous posts, players are undiscplined & commit a multitude of penalties...repeatedly. We are seeing blocked kicks, blocked punts, bad blocking, bad techniques, etc. on a regular basis. On the other side, we NEVER block punts & on the rare ocassion, we'll have a blocked kick (the last memorable one was Nov. 5, 2006, but not sure if there has been one since). We haven't seen a blocked punt in our favor since....I can't even remember when.

So, how is it that all other things that happen are the coach's fault, except this one? You can't blame Shanny for Danny Smith's poorly performing ST. Smith has been here longer than him. In fact, our ST has been essentially the same, save for the personnel changes over the years, thru 2 (and 1/3) GMs & at least 4 HCs. You're telling me that it was all THEIR faults our ST have been terrible?

We have seen the offense change numerous times, the defense change numerous times, the ST...stayed the same. But somehow, the turnstyle of coaches & GMs...it's their fault for the lackluster performance of the ST. Not the ST coach, oh no, not HIS fault. It's everyone else's fault. Gotcha.