bowhunter Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 Oldfan, in your opinion is Danny Smith a scapegoat for the fainting goats? I see where you have challenged those who have stated that he must go, but I am not sure of your position on this. So if YOU were our GM and had to make a hiring/firing decision here, what would you do? Would you look to see if his teams have improved or declined over the years? Would you challenge him as to why they have not improved? Would you ask him why it appears that whatever level of input he has had as to personnel always seems to be bad? How would you lead our team in this decision and why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 Oldfan, in your opinion is Danny Smith a scapegoat for the fainting goats? I see where you have challenged those who have stated that he must go, but I am not sure of your position on this. So if YOU were our GM and had to make a hiring/firing decision here, what would you do? Would you look to see if his teams have improved or declined over the years? Would you challenge him as to why they have not improved? Would you ask him why it appears that whatever level of input he has had as to personnel always seems to be bad? How would you lead our team in this decision and why?As GM Shanahan, I would ask Coach Shanahan his opinion of Danny Smith because he is the only one capable of grading the man. When there's a breakdown, Mike can ferret out what went wrong with the play and who's to blame. Then, over a span of a season, Mike can give Smith a grade.My guess is that lack of talent is the main problem but I can't be sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowhunter Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 As GM Shanahan, I would ask Coach Shanahan his opinion of Danny Smith because he is the only one capable of grading the man. When there's a breakdown, Mike can ferret out what went wrong with the play and who's to blame. Then, over a span of a season or two, Mike can give Smith a grade.My guess is that lack of talent is the main problem but I can't be sure. OK thanks. As I've been reading over your arguments it was difficult for me know what your position was. I could easily see where you took issue with the "why" many (myself included) wanted him to go, but not the "what" of whether you thought he should go. So if you were Mr. Allen, and Coach Shanahans input was to keep Danny, would you challenge Coach with our abysmal stats, or use any other method in Dannys assesment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 Vinny Cerrato and Larry Michael survived (or still do) here a long time. Doesn't mean either were/are any good at their jobs either. My question is this......if Danny Smith has been this great Special Teams Coach for so long, why hasn't he been given a promotion or hired to be a coordinator of O or D for another team? Don't tell me this is the peak of where he wants to go. Didn't Jim Harbaugh go from Special Teams to D-Backs in Philly to being a Head Coach? Seems that position should be easiest to replace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 OK thanks. As I've been reading over your arguments it was difficult for me know what your position was. I could easily see where you took issue with the "why" many (myself included) wanted him to go, but not the "what" of whether you thought he should go. So if you were Mr. Allen, and Coach Shanahans input was to keep Danny, would you challenge Coach with our abysmal stats, or use any other method in Dannys assesment?No.---------- Post added September-22nd-2012 at 11:53 AM ---------- Vinny Cerrato and Larry Michael survived (or still do) here a long time. Doesn't mean either were/are any good at their jobs either.My question is this......if Danny Smith has been this great Special Teams Coach for so long, why hasn't he been given a promotion or hired to be a coordinator of O or D for another team? Don't tell me this is the peak of where he wants to go. Didn't Jim Harbaugh go from Special Teams to D-Backs in Philly to being a Head Coach? Seems that position should be easiest to replace. I don't know Danny, so I can't answer your question. Maybe the man simply knows his limitations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallsux Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 Are our rookies/younger players really that bad compared to everyone elses? I'd like to think not. Riley, Gomes, Crawford, Neild, Hurt and many others who contribute on teams have all played well elsewhere. Are you guys claiming they go out and ****bag it on special teams? Really?That many blocks and it's on the players? I completely agree. As I said, if it was one or maybe even a few players over the years that had trouble with their assignments, then you can look at the players & just chock it up to them being dunderheads. But when it's everyone that passes thru the system? It has to be coaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 Vinny Cerrato and Larry Michael survived (or still do) here a long time. Doesn't mean either were/are any good at their jobs either.My question is this......if Danny Smith has been this great Special Teams Coach for so long, why hasn't he been given a promotion or hired to be a coordinator of O or D for another team? Don't tell me this is the peak of where he wants to go. Didn't Jim Harbaugh go from Special Teams to D-Backs in Philly to being a Head Coach? Seems that position should be easiest to replace. the man has occupied the lowest rung on the coordinators ladder for over ten years. That doesn't happen to great coaches. In the NFL, talent does not go to waste, nor is it ever ignored. All we ever seem to hear from other coaches is how much they like and respect danny, and how awesome of a coach they thnk he is. But that's ALL they ever say. They never say "Come be my defensive assistant.", or "come be my head coach."... hell i'd settle for "Come INTERVIEW for one of these positons.". But, no... the phone is silent. No interviews with anyone. no offers to move up, no one trying to pry this universally respected and revered coach away from us. Besides Buford, those other coaches are just waiting another ten years so they can be sure that it's not just the talent level that makes our special teams an annual laughing stock. After all, Edward bennet williams only died 30 years ago.. it's impossible to know whether his influence is still being felt. he has not developed a single specialist in 8 years here, and now in his ninth year, they give up on his development of our young kicker a week before the season. Clearly, Danny Smith is so awesome, his players simply can't keep up with it. His special teams ideas and innovations are so friggin' amazing, that the human mind just can't comprehend it. (Especially this "backwards kicking" idea he's been trying to perfect over the last two years. ) I've seen a lot of arguments for Danny while i have painstakingly laid out my argument against him, but this junk being floated in this thread is downright laughable. Completely devoid of any contact with reality, or completely devoid of any understanding of what is seen week in and week out while Smith's special teams lose us game after game. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallsux Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 I won't question how much you know about leadership or football, but you are weak on making an argument to support your position. You don't persuade people with unsupported claims like yours, and you don't persuade them with bogus stats like those in the OP. I've been logged in as a member at Football Outsiders for several years. I understand how those stats can be used and I understand how they can be misused.You might be right that Danny Smith is a bad coach, but you don't have a solid argument to prove it. Mike Shanahan is the only one in a position to grade him fairly. Why are the stats in the OP bogus? What makes them not true or invalid? While I agree that not all stats are valid, some are. When judging a coach's body of work based on how many yards in KR/PR, Average yards on punts & kickoffs, coverage on KR/PR, & then penalties...these are things that are soild, valid stats. Those stats in the OP are based on solid numbers, not the assumptions of missed assignments. Disregard them all you want, but at this point, you are just looking argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. It's as if you just want to engage people in a debate for the purpose of playing devil's advocate. So like I said, since you consistently argue that the stats aren't valid, explain why they aren't valid. So far, all you've offered is you've offerd is an opinion based on your assumptions of what the HC may or may not be seeing (without the inclusion of stats, that is). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 Why are the stats in the OP bogus? What makes them not true or invalid?While I agree that not all stats are valid, some are. When judging a coach's body of work based on how many yards in KR/PR, Average yards on punts & kickoffs, coverage on KR/PR, & then penalties...these are things that are soild, valid stats. Those stats in the OP are based on solid numbers, not the assumptions of missed assignments. Disregard them all you want, but at this point, you are just looking argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. It's as if you just want to engage people in a debate for the purpose of playing devil's advocate. So like I said, since you consistently argue that the stats aren't valid, explain why they aren't valid. So far, all you've offered is you've offerd is an opinion based on your assumptions of what the HC may or may not be seeing (without the inclusion of stats, that is). Going forward, I will have to ignore your posts since it seems like you didn't read mine.My first post in this thread (#22) tells you why the DVOA ranking is a bogus stat when grading coaches. There were other posts where I expanded on that point, but I'm not going to go back and dig them out just for your benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallsux Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 Clearly, Danny Smith is so awesome, his players simply can't keep up with it. His special teams ideas and innovations are so friggin' amazing, that the human mind just can't comprehend it. (Especially this "backwards kicking" idea he's been trying to perfect over the last two years. ) I nearly spit coffee all over the laptop when I read this. I've seen a lot of arguments for Danny while i have painstakingly laid out my argument against him, but this junk being floated in this thread is downright laughable. Completely devoid of any contact with reality, or completely devoid of any understanding of what is seen week in and week out while Smith's special teams lose us game after game.~Bang I completely agree, Bang. It seems more to me to be damage control kind of compliments. Like when you have a friend who has an extremely ugly baby that are completely oblivious to this fact. You don't say, "Woah! That is one ugly baby!" No, you say, "Wow! She/he is adorable!" It seems like when people are saying they like the guy, they aren't necessarily complimenting him. And one of the things I've learned from being in management is this: if everyone likes you, you are doing something wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowhunter Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 I nearly spit coffee all over the laptop when I read this.I completely agree, Bang. It seems more to me to be damage control kind of compliments. Like when you have a friend who has an extremely ugly baby that are completely oblivious to this fact. You don't say, "Woah! That is one ugly baby!" No, you say, "Wow! She/he is adorable!" It seems like when people are saying they like the guy, they aren't necessarily complimenting him. And one of the things I've learned from being in management is this: if everyone likes you, you are doing something wrong. My, your baby has such pretty little fingers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallsux Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 DVOA stats are irrelevant. Special Teams DVOA is a measure the unit's performance. It is not a measure of coaching performance.In order to grade the coach, you would first have to isolate and grade the quality of the personnel he coaches and there's no way to do that. :doh: This is your argument? All I can say is that you are flat wrong. Not close, not just off a little, maybe a little right...nope, you are flat wrong. All the way around. Why is that every other team can evaluate the quality of the body of work for their ST coaches, but somehow, the Redskins are devoid of this capability? Whatever man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 One of Norv's greatest faults as a head coach while he was here was that he was overly loyal. he held onto bad assistants way longer than he should have, and it usually ended up costing him. we saw it with LeCharls McDaniel. an awful special teams coach consistently fielding awful special teams. Lost us games. Kept getting his job back til Norv eventually lost his. In sports there's an axiom. You can't hide weakness. The game will find it. and what do you know.. our special teams are victimized every week. They victimize themselves every week. they don't just stay average and vanilla... they are a ticking bomb, a potential game-changing disaster on practically every play they're on the field. Bad penalties by vet players. Sloppy execution. Fumbles, muffs, blocked kicks, missed assignments. It simply cannot be overcome if we're going to advance to the next level, nor can it be understated. It happens way too consistently. I'm a bit of an old fan myself. and i remember how George Allen used to emphasize special teams before anyone in the NFL really gave it much thought, and they won us games. Big returns, big plays in big situations, blocked kicks, .. by no name players most of you young guys never heard of. Pete Wysocki, Pete Cronan, Ted Vactor, Speedy Duncan, Herb Mul-Key (a guy who was literally an NFL walk-on and became a special teams star)... these guys made plays on our special teams consistently. they were specialists before Steve Tasker up in Buffalo brought fame to the position... And it comes down to coaching. Period. They were coached properly, and they made plays. Our current guys not only do not make plays, they make huge mistakes. They make plays that are disastrous to our entire team effort. All of them. Young players,. fvet players.. doesn't matter. If there is one word to describe our special teams play, it is "undisciplined". And discipline falls on a coach 100% of the time. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallsux Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 My, your baby has such pretty little fingers My, he has long hair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselPwr44 Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 I'm a bit of an old fan myself. and i remember how George Allen used to emphasize special teams before anyone in the NFL really gave it much thought, and they won us games. Big returns, big plays in big situations, blocked kicks, .. by no name players most of you young guys never heard of. Pete Wysocki, Pete Cronan, Ted Vactor, Speedy Duncan, Herb Mul-Key (a guy who was literally an NFL walk-on and became a special teams star)... these guys made plays on our special teams consistently. they were specialists before Steve Tasker up in Buffalo brought fame to the position... And it comes down to coaching. Period. They were coached properly, and they made plays. ~Bang George Allen emphasized that unit so much, that he had the Special Teams unit announced in team introductions before a Monday Night game. We used to be a pioneer in special teams excellence in this league(thanks to Allen) and now we get served a crap sandwich in this area every Sunday. Oldfan thinks that Marc Bulger and Tom Brady are interchangable, which should tell you all you need to know about his football acumen. It's not cool to feed a troll, especially an Old one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowhunter Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 .. by no name players most of you young guys never heard of. Pete Wysocki.............~Bang Pete Wysocki was the man. As a kid, he and Hanburger were the ones I most tried to emulate. Thanks Bang for bringing that man back into the ST argument. We need a ST coach (and Pete Wysocki reincarnated) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illone Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 It definitely doesn't feel right with Smith running the special teams. Perhaps he has some dirt on Snyder and is untouchable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallsux Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 Oldfan thinks that Marc Bulger and Tom Brady are interchangable, which should tell you all you need to know about his football acumen. Wow. Is that true? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC9 Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 I won't question how much you know about leadership or football, but you are weak on making an argument to support your position. You don't persuade people with unsupported claims like yours, and you don't persuade them with bogus stats like those in the OP. I've been logged in as a member at Football Outsiders for several years. I understand how those stats can be used and I understand how they can be misused.You might be right that Danny Smith is a bad coach, but you don't have a solid argument to prove it. Mike Shanahan is the only one in a position to grade him fairly. Yes. Unsupported claims. Opinions, even. Kind of like the "we don't know" argument. That'll show em OF. And as a season ticket holder, I beg to differ with you that I am not in position to grade him fairly. Considering I make donations to his paycheck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moondog Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 Is there anything more infuriating then when the camera pans to Danny Smith chomping away at an entire bag of big league chew after ANOTHER special teams gaffe? I swear every time I see that man I want to jump through the TV and knock the gum right out of his mouth. Especially when at the end of the game he has the audacity to be in Shanahan's ear saying go with my guy, he can kick a field goal from 8 miles out. Um, no Danny, he can't. Shut the hell up and just go away. Please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isle-hawg Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 Nice post Murf! You point out statistically what we knew from watching. Danny seems like a great person and coach but as the stats you point out - and from what our eyeballs see, he is just not getting it done. Time for a new ST coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rk3025 Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 Hanburger could do it all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjfootballer Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 Why are the stats in the OP bogus? What makes them not true or invalid?While I agree that not all stats are valid, some are. When judging a coach's body of work based on how many yards in KR/PR, Average yards on punts & kickoffs, coverage on KR/PR, & then penalties...these are things that are soild, valid stats. Those stats in the OP are based on solid numbers, not the assumptions of missed assignments. Disregard them all you want, but at this point, you are just looking argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. It's as if you just want to engage people in a debate for the purpose of playing devil's advocate. So like I said, since you consistently argue that the stats aren't valid, explain why they aren't valid. So far, all you've offered is you've offerd is an opinion based on your assumptions of what the HC may or may not be seeing (without the inclusion of stats, that is). Pretty much his MO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjfootballer Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 Wow. Is that true? You should dig up old QB threads. He thinks QB counts for less than 10% of the worth of a team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky21 Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 You should dig up old QB threads. He thinks QB counts for less than 10% of the worth of a team.And Jay Cutler is a GOD! Jay Cutler for cripes sake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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