Making the Case for Graham Gano

[MartinC]

It's worse than that. Kickers seem to regress under Smith. Look at Gano who was very clutch his rookie season, look at Suisham, the guy who became the Cowboy's kicker for a while, etc.

Something in what Smith demands makes kickers fall apart.

Nah. There are some technical things I'm sure coaches work on with kickers but generally its the 6 inches between the ears which make or break a kicker especially at NFL level when you can take the physical ability to kick a football pretty much as read.

Its is rather annoying though watching the opposing kicker nail 57 yard attempts with about 10 yards to spare while our kicker push's it wide from inside of 40 yards .....

[Bang]

Nah. There are some technical things I'm sure coaches work on with kickers but generally its the 6 inches between the ears which make or break a kicker especially at NFL level when you can take the physical ability to kick a football pretty much as read.

Its is rather annoying though watching the opposing kicker nail 57 yard attempts with about 10 yards to spare while our kicker push's it wide from inside of 40 yards .....

it could be a lot of things,, it could easily be his mental state.. it could be his holder, it could be his snap, a lot of factors.

whatever it is, danny's kickers seem to develop this problem a lot. 100% of the time, in fact.

~Bang

[sideshow24]

Our kickers struggled with one of the most consistent long snappers in history and video evidence of good holds. I simply cannot understand it.

[Bigmuss1]

Cundiff made the kick that mattered. Period. You cannot argue that.

[bowhunter]

Cundiff made the kick that mattered. Period. You cannot argue that.

In the end it was a 2 point game. They ALL matter

[justice98]

Cundiff made the kick that mattered. Period. You cannot argue that.

But you can't give a kicker credit for making a kick that mattered when he's the one that made it matter in the first place. People used to do that with Gano when he'd make a big kick that was only a big kick cuz he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn leading up to it.

[Bigmuss1]

In the end it was a 2 point game. They ALL matter

No kicker makes them all, check NFL history.

Good kickers miss, then have the balls to kick a 41 yard game winner.

---------- Post added October-1st-2012 at 10:18 AM ----------

But you can't give a kicker credit for making a kick that mattered when he's the one that made it matter in the first place. People used to do that with Gano when he'd make a big kick that was only a big kick cuz he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn leading up to it.

Please check NFL history, kickers miss everyday. RG3 will have incomplete passes, D will eventually break down, it's all part of the wonderful game of football. Winners don't look back, they focus on the next play.

[gkekoa]

Gano should have been retained for a very simple reason...he was 85%, top ten, on unblocked kicks. Those blocks were not his fault...they were 4 yards on our side of the LOS.

[Bang]

In the end it was a 2 point game. They ALL matter

EMPHATICALLY.

~Bang

[steve09ru]

No kicker makes them all, check NFL history.

Good kickers miss, then have the balls to kick a 41 yard game winner.

Good kickers also don't miss 31 & 41 yarders that throws momentum and builds an even stronger lead.

Tampa had no business being in the game - Cundiff was supposed to be "automatic" as everyone around here proclaimed - he's not - what's even worse is that those 2 misses weren't even close and they were what so many stated "chip-shots" for Cundiff.

What sucks even more is Cundiff is pathetic from over 47 - he has no leg strength or accuracy for fg's - sure he can kick it out of the back of the endzone but so can Gano when not asked to directional kick

[Bat~man]

No kicker makes them all, check NFL history.

Good kickers miss, then have the balls to kick a 41 yard game winner.

---------- Post added October-1st-2012 at 10:18 AM ----------

Please check NFL history, kickers miss everyday. RG3 will have incomplete passes, D will eventually break down, it's all part of the wonderful game of football. Winners don't look back, they focus on the next play.

Lol, seriously? Heck yea kickers miss..but 3 in a row on easy kicks? Get out with that.

You have one dang job, kick! If you're gonna be 1-4 in a tight game, you BETTER make the winning one. Honestly tho, it's splitting hairs with Gano/Cundiff. Gano has missed kicks and given plenty of heartbreaks too..I personally don't care if it's Gano/Cundiff, neither one gives me confidence.

[Oldfan]

Right, because coaches don't affect their players.

Bang, here is Dave Taub's ST DVOA ranking. He has been the Bears ST Coach since 2004.

2011 - 1

2010 - 1

2009 - 4

2008 - 5

2007 - 1

2006 - 1

2005 - 27

2004 - 12

What explanation would you offer for his unit's marked improvement since 2006?

a) Taub became brilliant in 2006;

It took Taub three years to build his unit;

c) Devin Hester arrived and Taub taught him how to run;

d) Devin Hester arrived and already knew how to run.

[Bang]

Bang, here is Dave Taub's DVOA. He has been the Bears ST Coach since 2004.

2011 - 1

2010 - 1

2009 - 4

2008 - 5

2007 - 1

2006 - 1

2005 - 27

2004 - 12

What explanation would you offer for his unit's marked improvement in 2006?

a) Taub became brilliant in 2006;

It took Taub three years to build his unit;

c) Devin Hester arrived and Taub taught him how to run;

d) Devin Hester arrived and already knew how to run?

Hi Oldfan,

I don't care how you want to stack Smith up against anyone.

Our special teams are the biggest and most consistent weakness on this team.

Period.

~Bang

[greenspandan]

Cundiff made the kick that mattered. Period. You cannot argue that.

it wouldn't have mattered if he'd made any of the other three. cundiff is garbage. he has a weak leg and his accuracy isn't even good anymore. he almost missed all four kicks.

[Shabby]

If cundiff were to miss that gw kick, he would have been cut. but making it saved him another week. but is it just me, or do we always have bad kickers? the last DECENT kicker we had was john hall, but the dude was always injured

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

I really really really doubt 'roster moves are being made to manage egos'. Let's not complicate and get all conspiracy theory about it. Simple answer's usually the correct one, and it's a simple as this: Gano/Rackers aren't awesome kickers.

Rackers was an 84% kicker with Houston the year before. Gano is 86% percent if you DON'T ignore all the visual evidence that suggests the 5 blocks, all inside 40, were his fault, and DON'T groundlessly assume that Gano misses those kicks (Gano's a bad kicker, so how do you know he makes those kicks, and we know he's a bad kicker because he had a bad percentage due to those blocked kicks seems to be the logic - at best you could have him blow 1/5 which still puts him at 85% for the season). Cundiff has only ONCE gotten over 80%, and there's every reason to believe that was an outlier. Rackers has been over 90% three times, and had another near miss.

Frankly, does any team evaluate kickers that well? It seems that the teams with good kickers kind of luck into them or have to burn a 3rd or 4th pick on them. Meanwhile, you have a bunch of other teams shuffling mediocre kickers around

The 57 yard attempt makes things look much worse. It's a 'whatever give it a shot' kick at the end of the half, and if anything, it's very UN-egotistical of Shanny to go for it. He doesn't give a rats ass if it makes the stats look worse, it's a better idea than hurling it into the endzone, period. Otherwise, not cool to miss the 30 yarder, and along with his whiff with the Ravens last year, the last thing I'm thinking with Cundiff is 'clutch gene'. That's the second 'what the hell' long kick btw, and let's consider it's a testament to how able the Redskins are to get near field goal range at the end of halves. I mean, they've done it almost every time.

Missing 41 or whatever else he missed from isn't acceptable either. Gano sans blocks was perfect from that range. And Gano has the leg to make 57, Cundiff doesn't. Hell, he has the leg to make 62.

His kickoffs still go through the endzone, and I do believe that's the reason he's here. I'm sure the decision to bring him in played out in very boring fashion, not some dirty Danny Smith conspiracy ring.

Gano can boot into the stands each time IF you have him just boot it as opposed to directionally kick. They have not ASKED Cundiff to directionally kick.

Sure, Shannahan does have blind spots. He's not a special teams coach and he's not a defensive coordinator. I'm glad he understands that and is letting those guys do their job. Y'all have it backwards, it would be EGOTISTICAL of Shanny to put his hands on everything and try to to it 'his way'. I'm one of the last people to defend Danny freakin Smith, but it's not any better if Shanny tries to act like a special teams guy and messes with it.

At the same time, at certain times, it is okay for Shanny to come in and say "Hey, this is a bad call, this kid is talented but you're not using him right", or "Hey, this D isn't working, switch it up".

Yea, we're 'feeling the effects'. What you're expecting is a perfect football team. We have Shanny who's doing amazing things with Griffin, is slowly proving he truly does find awesome running backs in late rounds, his zone running style, for that matter, is impressive, and he's otherwise made tons of moves since day one to make the team younger. If we had equally as impressive special teams and defense, we would be in the Superbowl hunt every year. Simply put: I'm sorry everything isn't perfect, but it isn't going to be in 1, 2 or even 3 years considering he had to work with Vinny Cerrato's slop.

I agree with all of this. I agree with 90-95% with Shanny's moves. But I feel like that when Shanny whiffs on his 5%, he whiffs hard. Jordan Black was a huge whiff. Brandon Banks was a whiff. And now Billy Cundiff is looking like a huge whiff. Especially when there were other, better options available.

Isn't that what we were so excited about in the first place? A real coach getting a chance to build the Redskins?

I understand this, actually. We DID need stability and Shanny is bringing it. At the same time, at what point does the real need to maintain stability and continuity prevent us from getting better? It happened with the Washington Wizards last decade, for example, despite some very real flaws that limited that team's ceiling. While it's sort of an apples to orange's comparison, sometimes you need to decide whether making a change is, or isn't worth the potential loss in stability. With that said, Shanny decided he need to make a change at DC after a bad stretch the previous year...which led to him being here. But all I know is that we've made some moves on the margins - at kicker, at OL, and at returner, that are hurting us in the short term. That doesn't take away from Shanny's masterful rebuild, but some of these are unforced errors that seem to have no rhyme or reason to them. Smith seems objectively better than Black, and Gano AND Rackers seem objectively better than Cundiff. Danny Smith has a lot of special teams breakdowns, and Haslett has real holes in his "coordinator" game.

Maybe that's the price of building long-term stability: you let a few headscratchers go so you don't have to rock the boat too much and undermine the foundation you build.

[Bang]

Shanahan also must rely on his subordinates and coordinators to feed them information about the players.

A head coach's decisions are based largely on their recommendations.

~Bang

[Popeman38]

Cundiff made the kick that mattered. Period. You cannot argue that.

Graham Gano was 8-10 in game winning FG attempts. Both misses were from 50+. At least according to Kevin Sheehan. So by your logic, he should still be our kicker.

And oh by the way, in 2011 Gano was a 75.6% kicker (31-41) with a long of 59 (5 blocked). Cundiff is a 60% kicker (6-10) with a long of 45 (0 blocked). There is no way anyone can rationally defend Cundiff at this point. He has zero chance of making a 59 yarder, and is at best a 30/70 proposition on ANY kick over 50.

Everyone that hated on Gano, he sure looks good today.

[Oldfan]

Hi Oldfan,

I don't care how you want to stack Smith up against anyone.

Our special teams are the biggest and most consistent weakness on this team.

Period.

~Bang

That's only because Gibbs didn't have the foresight to draft Devin Hester.

[ManleyMann7271]

The simple fact is that Gano's best years were likely ahead of him, cundiff's are long gone.

---------- Post added October-1st-2012 at 11:17 AM ----------

NTM when cundiff was booed for missing a preseason kick, he said that it reminded him of his time in dallass. I would have cut him right then.

[ZRagone]

Even in victory, this place never ceases to amaze.

No disrespect, but this is a totally ridiculous bump IMHO.

Hail.

Victory due to a "game winning kick" that only came about because Cundiff whiffed on a relatively close kick, whiffed on what should be a reasonable kick to expect in the NFL, and whiffed on a kick that should be a difficult (but looks to be impossible) one in this league.

It's not ridiculous at all to bump this. He's sitting at a 60% average now though that should be closer to 70% because with his weak FG leg he should've never been asked ot do a 62 yarder. His automatic nature inside 40 is questionable at this point, and his issues with 45 plus are pretty apparent. While I wouldn't mind seeing him go, and was a backer of Gano from the start of camp and when this move happened, I would not think it's unreasonable to keep him to see if this is an anomoly this year rather than a somewhat norm. However, one more game like this and Cundiff needs the walking papers. He has no where near the upside of Gano that justified keepin Gano through his rocky first year, so there's no purpose in keeping him if he's not "automatic" inside 40 yards and is a coinflip at best beyond 45.

[Bang]

That's only because Gibbs didn't have the foresight to draft Devin Hester.

I will give you this.

And only because Hester is a special player.. he really is.

Even you I'm sure can agree with me when i say that i believe that probably close to 90% of all long returns are a result of good blocks and a nice hole or seam for the returner. most of the time on a big return they're never touched.

rarely is a big return the result of spectacular individual performance.

But with Hester it is different. he gets blocks, but he also does unbelievable things on his returns to make men miss or run through tacklers. He makes a lot of those long returns on his own skill.

he's special, and if they ever do come down off the high horse and put returners in the HOF, he's clearly one in the mix.

I get whatr you're saying about drafting the right players.

But lets face it. Draft, trade, free agent,, doesn't matter. On our special teams players consistently make mistakes. Kickers do miss extraordinary amounts of field goals. For 8 years now. Coordinators don't just sit and wait to see who is dropped in their laps. They have say on who is acquired for them and who they keep and cut. (And if they DON'T,,, what exactly is it that makes danny smith so revered? this is one more thing 'behind the scenes' thing that is shot down, and his greatness behind the scenes is what they try to sell us when they tell us how awesome he is.)

I'm not saying we should have spectacular special teams. I'll settle for games played cleanly, relatively mistake free.. like last week vs the Bengals.

they played well yesterday on coverages, but another element of the STs has a breakdown and we're in a dogfight at the end, when we should have had a lead to sit on. (I can forgive the long miss.. I can't understand why they send him out.. who doesn;'t know his limits? Smith, or Shanahan? Who is supposed to know how far he can hit reliably?

it happens too much, my friend.

~Bang

[SkinsCrushCowboys]

Have a defense that is worth a crap and can preserve a 20 point lead and we are not having to kick game winners in the first place...

[ke27on]

Good kickers also don't miss 31 & 41 yarders that throws momentum and builds an even stronger lead.

Tampa had no business being in the game - Cundiff was supposed to be "automatic" as everyone around here proclaimed - he's not - what's even worse is that those 2 misses weren't even close and they were what so many stated "chip-shots" for Cundiff.

What sucks even more is Cundiff is pathetic from over 47 - he has no leg strength or accuracy for fg's - sure he can kick it out of the back of the endzone but so can Gano when not asked to directional kick

I know Cundiff stinks and I wish they'd just bring back Gano. They are both inconsistent but at least Gano has a CHANCE to make the long field goals. Gano has some potential to improve. Cundiff is a guy on the decline who has now shown you several times he is capable of missing gimme field goals. What is the point of getting the same inconsistency with less leg strength?? In my opinion he should still be fired whether or not he made the kick. He shouldn't have missed all those other kicks in the first place.

[KingGibbs]

Victory due to a "game winning kick" that only came about because Cundiff whiffed on a relatively close kick, whiffed on what should be a reasonable kick to expect in the NFL, and whiffed on a kick that should be a difficult (but looks to be impossible) one in this league.

It's not ridiculous at all to bump this. He's sitting at a 60% average now though that should be closer to 70% because with his weak FG leg he should've never been asked ot do a 62 yarder. His automatic nature inside 40 is questionable at this point, and his issues with 45 plus are pretty apparent. While I wouldn't mind seeing him go, and was a backer of Gano from the start of camp and when this move happened, I would not think it's unreasonable to keep him to see if this is an anomoly this year rather than a somewhat norm. However, one more game like this and Cundiff needs the walking papers. He has no where near the upside of Gano that justified keepin Gano through his rocky first year, so there's no purpose in keeping him if he's not "automatic" inside 40 yards and is a coinflip at best beyond 45.

This is the most level-headed post in here. Gives his explanation in detail and I agree for the most part. I would however bring kickers in this week starting with Gano to let Cunmiss know his seat is smoldering and getting real hot .