HuffPo: Young people more likely to favor socialism than capitalism: Pew

[No_Pressure]

I will begin by stating that I am not what one would describe as a socialist but I don't understand the loving adherence to capitalism by many Americans.

While there is a perceived freedom which comes from capitalist economies (which is to say you have the freedom to choose the manner in which you are controlled) there is always a primitive element of competition. Not that there is anything wrong with competition, I'm a highly competitive individual and I work my hardest to be the best at whatever it is I'm doing. I won trophies as a kid and scoffed at events where kids were all handed trophies and judged to be equally good and worthy. There is however a kind of competition in which you simply work your hardest and do your best, and then there is a kind of competition in which human beings feel it is necessary to behave in dirty and underhanded fashions. I've seen and heard about plenty of corporate politics, career sabotage, exclusion practices towards an unwanted demographic and runaway exploitation of desperate individuals in capitalist economies.

Many people hold the attitude that this is simply "Darwinism" and survival of the fittest (this is an incorrect use of the term) or they state some other cliche like its a "dog eat dog" world out there and that they would rather be a "shark than a sheep". The capitalist system destroys trust for many people, and hinders meaningful organization and collaboration between groups as a result whether we're talking about two people jockying for the same position within a company who spend their time trying to make the other look bad so they don't get promoted despite their capabilities and true usefulness to the company, or two companies who could work together to produce something great and meaningful but who distrust one another or feel they aren't getting the absolute best deal.

Going along with that attitude is a complete lack of empathy for fellow Americans or just fellow human beings in general. I'm not talking about feeling sorry for somebody who is the cause of all of their problems, I'm talking about a lack of caring on a number of levels. An example would be companies who pollute more than they could or should simply because there isn't a law against what they're doing and it helps their bottom line, or companies who lay off employees who have been good workers for 20 years because they agreed to contract terms that they didn't really want to pay, then go out and hire a bunch of desperate kids to replace them at half the cost and less than half the quality. Zero empathy for workers who are indeed struggling for years to climb out of a difficult situation that they were born into. There are many bootstrap stories out there. My grandfather and father are both examples of going from nothing to something, making yourself into a success by will, determination, hard work, and a little bit of luck, but there are many who are determined, hard working, highly capable but very unlucky. Nobody cares about that in a capitalist system.

[i would like to edit this now and add this in: I'm not of course speaking about individuals and their character. If you read this and say to yourself "hey, I'm a worker and I collaborate and get along with my co-workers! My employer is a good one and doesn't take advantage of us, etc. then I'm happy for you and your workers, that is a good thing and that kind of environment can survive in the capitalist system. There are inherent negative and positive traits which can surface in humans for a variety of reasons and some companies can still carry a sense of collaboration and friendship while being competitive. My point in these paragraphs is that those sentiments have to be worked at very hard to be maintained because the tendency which is encouraged by the capitalist system is not a positive and collaborative/friendly one- this is what I'm talking about.]

Then there are false ideas and misnomers about socialism. There was a thread a little while ago talking about Greece in which a poster from this board was talking about how American workers are the most productive per capita on the planet, as in the American worker draws in and keeps the most money on average than anybody else on the planet, which was a true statement. In order to achieve this we sacrifice our health both mentally and physically, we sacrifice our families and the time we should be spending with them, hell we sacrifice our lives. If you're one of the lucky few that has managed to make a lot of money without too much effort and plenty of vacation time you're likely sitting here proving my point in the last paragraph about not empathizing with your fellow members of capitalism. You don't feel sorry for people who have 14 days out of 365 to rest, relax, or vacation with their families. You don't feel sorry for the guy who is working double shifts, staying awake for 18 hours of the day, and not spending time helping his kids do their homework or going to their various baseball, football, soccer, etc. games.

In the thread I mentioned the Germans were a topic of conversation. They were painted as lazy workers who merely work smart and still get a whole lot of work done in spite of their complete lack of industriousness. Socialist systems like Germany's economy are seen as havens for laziness where people are simply sitting around not working, leeching off the system. It is true that most Germans get something like 35 days of vacation per year to our 14. It is true that many of them work a 38-40something hour week. It is true that they pay 40% or more of their income to taxes. Another fact is that in many cities such as Munich for example, the Germans enjoy between a 3-4% unemployment rate currently. Their national average right now according to google is 5.6 to our 8.1. I'm not going to compare our economies because we are nations with different notions of what is good/desirable and what isn't, which drives our different choices. The point is that we're both first world nations in the midst of our own economic crises, but the socialist one isn't doing any worse than the capitalist one right now.

That statement brings me to my final point at which I can stop lest this post become a novel. It isn't so much our economic system as it is the people we have looking after that system. I stated to begin with that I am not a socialist, and that is mainly because I know what a complete and utter disaster socialism is with our government. We have a government which is extremely inefficient with spending, which is extremely inefficient with regulation of various laws and practices which would be necessary for socialist programs to succeed, we have a nice mix of Machiavelli, Joel Osteen, and Leon Trotsky within our political body which ensures that anything we would try to do to change our economic system would be the biggest cluster**** any of us have ever seen.

I can't condone socialist systems and policies in America for the simple reason that we're too inept to run them properly and there isn't anything many of us can do to change that. Our current capitalist system is flawed and ****ed up. I'm not going to add a "but" there either and make this end up as an argument in favor of capitalism. Capitalism in America has helped us get to where we are but it is also strongly laced with primitive notions that are not helpful to the greater good (one of our socialist concepts upon which our constitution is founded). I view capitalism in a similar yet completely different fashion from Karl Marx. In the communist manifesto Marx generally outlines that capitalism is a necessary part of human development but is wrought with inequities and problems which lead a society to adopt more socialist views and then slowly over time evolve into pure communism. I too feel that capitalism is just a stepping stone to something better, and if we can handle running socialism in a good and sensible way some day then perhaps that is the "something better" but we're not ready for it at this point. I certainly don't think that communism is the end goal, even when keeping in mind that Marx's communism was a lot different from the Soviet "communism" (fancy word for oppressive oligarchy).

What is the end goal? What is the most advanced society we can make for ourselves? I don't know, and I have as hard of a time imagining what it will look like and how it will work as I figure peasants in a feudal society would have had envisioning our capitalist republic today. All I am sure of is that capitalism isn't the apex. We are not at the top of our evolutionary capabilities. We are capable of being better than this. Sorry if I blurred the line between forms of government and economic systems too much. You don't need to quote my post multiple times to point out the differences between economic systems and political systems. In the case of socialism and communism a close collaboration between the economy and political apparatus is absolutely essential for operation let alone success so get off my back.

[Koolblue13]

I'm in favor of more socialistic societies and governments on a smaller scale, until we collectively can do it right and have that trickle upwards, to the point that the masses can over power the few who do run the world with money.

[mistertim]

Good. As a consumer I'm glad they've driven the prices down. I don't romanticize the overpriced Mom&Pop stores of yesteryear. Tough luck for them that they couldn't adapt.

As a consumer are you happy that many times it is at the expense of quality? As a human are you happy that it has led to the suffering of others via people getting paid lower and lower wages with less and less benefits, or losing their jobs for various reasons that they have zero control over? Or is that just "Tough luck for them, they should start their own megacorp or learn to ****ing type. I'm just happy with my discounted toilet paper"?

[Tulane Skins Fan]

If you don't like it then move to France.

[Popeman38]

Received this email this morning:

The Definition of Irony

The Food Stamp program, part of the Department of Agriculture, announced that it is pleased to be distributing food stamps to the greatest number of people ever.

Meanwhile, the Park Service, also part of the Department of Agriculture, asks us "Please do not feed the animals" because they may grow dependent and not learn to take care of themselves.

Agree with the sentiment or not, you have to admit it is a humorous quip.

[gbear]

The Rock,

I agree with your post almost in its entirety. I often laugh to myself when people trot out Marx and then the U.S.S.R. I think the trajectory the U.S. economy and culture has taken is far closer to the predictions of Marx than the U.S.S.R. ever managed. I think about this and realize how few who bemoan socialism or Marx do so having read much about them.

[alexey]

Received this email this morning:

Agree with the sentiment or not, you have to admit it is a humorous quip.

There is certainly a lot of truth to that. The question is, what should we do?

Things were different back during the days of our founding Fathers. Then again, that was before the industrial revolution. Nowadays people can grow dependent on their job in the big factory on the outskirts of town. If the factory moves to another country, what happens to the people? I think we have to recognize both realities of the situation. People do grow dependent on things. We have to deal with that. Economic realities in 2012 are very different from economic realities in 1776. We have to deal with that too.

[zoony]

There is certainly a lot of truth to that. The question is, what should we do?

Things were different back during the days of our founding Fathers. Then again, that was before the industrial revolution. Nowadays people can grow dependent on their job in the big factory on the outskirts of town. If the factory moves to another country, what happens to the people? I think we have to recognize both realities of the situation. People do grow dependent on things. We have to deal with that. Economic realities in 2012 are very different from economic realities in 1776. We have to deal with that too.

I am a big advocate of not "feeding the bears". I see firsthand the kind of generational dependence it fosters.

So what's the solution? Cut off everything, give the rich a tax cut, and start another war? If you listen to conservatives, this is exactly what they would do.

[Koolblue13]

There is certainly a lot of truth to that. The question is, what should we do?

Things were different back during the days of our founding Fathers. Then again, that was before the industrial revolution. Nowadays people can grow dependent on their job in the big factory on the outskirts of town. If the factory moves to another country, what happens to the people? I think we have to recognize both realities of the situation. People do grow dependent on things. We have to deal with that. Economic realities in 2012 are very different from economic realities in 1776. We have to deal with that too.

That's basically my grandfathers story, along with a lot of other people. Leave the major cities and move to upstate PA for steal work and coal mines. Those industries dry up over night and move away. Now you own a house, have 7 kids and no useful skill. So, either you end up on welfare, starve to death, rob people or drive 3 hours each way to the major cities for a minimum wage job that barely pays your gas money to do it. The folks in the Appalachia got pretty screwed.

If you live in a city, there is almost always work for you.

[Teller]

So what's the solution? Cut off everything, give the rich a tax cut, and start another war? If you listen to conservatives, this is exactly what they would do.

Who's proposing that? Link?

[Popeman38]

Who's proposing that? Link?

HH, the Reps advocate reducing the entitlement programs, expanding the Bush tax cuts (and making them permanent). Starting another war would be easy (Syria, Iran).

[tiger187126]

obviously there is a balance that could create an ideal situation, but we're never going to get near it.

until then basically people look around and complain, using the grass is greener train of thought for their lives.

how many college graduates who can't find work have looked into the construction field? there's jobs there that pay well and have a future, but ask a kid fresh out of college and he would turn his nose up at it and move back in with his parents.

and i get it, i was one of those kids that was told non-stop growing up that if i wanted to do anything in life i better go to college. so i did and when i got out there wasn't any jobs to be had. i wish i could go back and tell my high school counselor to shove it, it would have saved me a lot of money.

here's my problem though. instead of being a generation of people who aspire to be something or make something of our selves, we're a generation of entitlement, greed, and jealousy. we enjoy our way of life, our technology, the things that money can buy us, but we can't handle someone else having more. if someone does then they need to be taken down a peg because somehow them having less money means that we can have more.

irony is obviously lost on this generation as well. let's protest big companies taking advantage of people for their personal gains with our apple laptops. the poor should be taken care of and have good lives, as long as it doesn't come out of my pocket. the daily show had a funny bit about the segregation at occupy wall street:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-november-16-2011/occupy-wall-street-divided

that's this generation.

[Teller]

HH, the Reps advocate reducing the entitlement programs, expanding the Bush tax cuts (and making them permanent). Starting another war would be easy (Syria, Iran).

Right, reducing =/= cutting everything

Bush tax =/= only for the rich

Would be easy =/= let's do it!

[Tulane Skins Fan]

obviously there is a balance that could create an ideal situation, but we're never going to get near it.

until then basically people look around and complain, using the grass is greener train of thought for their lives.

how many college graduates who can't find work have looked into the construction field? there's jobs there that pay well and have a future, but ask a kid fresh out of college and he would turn his nose up at it and move back in with his parents.

and i get it, i was one of those kids that was told non-stop growing up that if i wanted to do anything in life i better go to college. so i did and when i got out there wasn't any jobs to be had. i wish i could go back and tell my high school counselor to shove it, it would have saved me a lot of money.

here's my problem though. instead of being a generation of people who aspire to be something or make something of our selves, we're a generation of entitlement, greed, and jealousy. we enjoy our way of life, our technology, the things that money can buy us, but we can't handle someone else having more. if someone does then they need to be taken down a peg because somehow them having less money means that we can have more.

irony is obviously lost on this generation as well. let's protest big companies taking advantage of people for their personal gains with our apple laptops. the poor should be taken care of and have good lives, as long as it doesn't come out of my pocket. the daily show had a funny bit about the segregation at occupy wall street:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-november-16-2011/occupy-wall-street-divided

that's this generation.

That's a pretty simplistic understanding of the complaints going on.

What youre missing is that the government has repeatedly passed laws and enacted policies which favor the rich. This is natural since it is the rich and powerful that have the means, i.e. Money and favors, to influence the candidates. So, it is not that people are necessarily complaining that the government doesn't do enough to help the young, its that a lot of young people are realizing that with the bailouts, etc., the government seems to be looking out for the people who have everything at the expense of those who don't have the means to influence the government.

[No Excuses]

here's my problem though. instead of being a generation of people who aspire to be something or make something of our selves, we're a generation of entitlement, greed, and jealousy.

You can go back and say this for any generation. And I call BS on this anyways. Sure there are entitled jerk offs, but that isn't the norm.

It seems purely anecdotal to suggest that our generation is full of greed and jealousy. You are perhaps around such people but that is far from from being the norm.

[Predicto]

Bush tax =/= only for the rich

It's so cute how you keep saying that

:poke:

---------- Post added June-19th-2012 at 11:30 AM ----------

here's my problem though. instead of being a generation of people who aspire to be something or make something of our selves, we're a generation of entitlement, greed, and jealousy.

LOL. That's exactly what Crassus said to Julius Caesar.

[Teller]

It's so cute how you keep saying that

:poke:

I thought we decided yesterday it was cool to talk about things that are true.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

here's my problem though. instead of being a generation of people who aspire to be something or make something of our selves, we're a generation of entitlement, greed, and jealousy. we enjoy our way of life, our technology, the things that money can buy us, but we can't handle someone else having more. if someone does then they need to be taken down a peg because somehow them having less money means that we can have more.

You know who was the most entitled generation in history?

The Greatest Generation.

Think about it. They grew up in the Great Depression and fought WWII. And after that, they lived off the government teat for the next 60 years.

Want to go to college? GI Bill passed in 1944.

Worried about health care? Medicare passed in 1965.

Worried about getting old? Social Security and Federally Insured Pension Plans.

Want to build a vacation home in Florida? Federal Flood Insurance

Want to move out of the crowded city? Federal Interstate System and a mortgage deduction.

Want to live beyound your means? Prior to 1986, you could deduct your credit card debt from your taxes.

Need a job? Work in the federally-created defense industy or aerospace industry.

Now, that they are all dying...sorry...no more money.....

[Predicto]

I thought we decided yesterday it was cool to talk about things that are true.

Can't argue with that.

Did you know that Predicto and David Letterman both have been on television? TV Stardom - it's the same thing for both of us!

[Popeman38]

Right, reducing =/= cutting everything

Bush tax =/= only for the rich

Would be easy =/= let's do it!

I know. But when that is what your platform is, it opens you up to the flak from the anti-Rep guns. Hell, look at the negative ads about Romney. Talking about his $2.6BILLION more debt for Mass while supporting the reelection of a POTUS who has increased the national debt by $4.939 TRILLION in 3 years. Anybody know what percent 2.6B is of 4.939T?

[Predicto]

You know who was the most entitled generation in history?

The Greatest Generation.

Think about it. They grew up in the Great Depression and fought WWII. And after that' date=' they lived off the government teat for the next 60 years.

Want to go to college? GI Bill passed in 1944.

Worried about health care? Medicare passed in 1965.

Worried about getting old? Social Security and Federally Insured Pension Plans.

Want to build a vacation home in Florida? Federal Flood Insurance

Want to move out of the crowded city? Federal Interstate System and a mortgage deduction.

Want to live beyound your means? Prior to 1986, you could deduct your credit card debt from your taxes.

Need a job? Work in the federally-created defense industy or aerospace industry.

Now, that they are all dying...sorry...no more money.....[/quote']

100 percent true. I dare you to tell Tom Brokaw to his face.

[Teller]

Can't argue with that.

Did you know that Predicto and David Letterman both have been on television? TV Stardom - it's the same thing for both of us!

Actually, that's a perfectly appropriate analogy.

You've both been compensated based on the money you brought in for the network. Just as those who pay more in taxes get a bigger cut.

:finger:

[Predicto]

Actually, that's a perfectly appropriate analogy.

You've both been compensated based on the money you brought in for the network. Just as those who pay more in taxes get a bigger cut.

:finger:

No, it's because we 2 percenters have greater inherent worth than you turkey burger flippers. It makes perfect sense to blow up the deficit and give me all the money. I'm elite, after all.

[tiger187126]

You know who was the most entitled generation in history?

The Greatest Generation.

Think about it. They grew up in the Great Depression and fought WWII. And after that' date=' they lived off the government teat for the next 60 years.

Want to go to college? GI Bill passed in 1944.

Worried about health care? Medicare passed in 1965.

Worried about getting old? Social Security and Federally Insured Pension Plans.

Want to build a vacation home in Florida? Federal Flood Insurance

Want to move out of the crowded city? Federal Interstate System and a mortgage deduction.

Want to live beyound your means? Prior to 1986, you could deduct your credit card debt from your taxes.

Need a job? Work in the federally-created defense industy or aerospace industry.

Now, that they are all dying...sorry...no more money.....[/quote']

i guess what i'm trying to say is we're entitled without having a way to support it. basically what you point out that in that generation you had the ability to have a lot of things that previously wouldn't have been available and there may have been a kind of coddling with government systems.

what i'm saying is kids now expect those things even though they are greatly diminished or unavailable, and they are unwilling to work for them.

it will be interesting to see how the next generation turns out since this generation won't have the money their parents might have had and the lack of any money passed down because of the debt of their parents.

[Teller]

No, it's because we 2 percenters have greater inherent worth than you turkey burger flippers. It makes perfect sense to blow up the deficit and give me all the money. I'm elite, after all.

You pay more, you should get more back. But I respect your generosity.

PM sent. I accept cash, check or money order.