Burgold Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 7 minutes ago, Wildbunny said: I would have thought Chinese first more than Russians here. Anyway, that doesn't look good... More like people smiling while being ready to draw the knives hidden in their backs... Peace conference is usually a good place to start a war. Thing about Trump is that he's a bully from a distance and a coward up close. Look at his inability to fire people he hates (which is pretty crazy considering 43% White House turnover rate) I suspect in person he won't be a tough guy. On the flip side, I also suspect he will be unprepared and have no idea what people are talking about. In addition, he will be overeager to sign anything just so he can trumpet he got a deal done and a "win" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ixcuincle Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 North Korea has wanted a meeting with the US for something like 25 years. The meeting is seen as a victory for the state in and of itself. I'm not opposed to meeting in theory; frankly, cutting through this symbolic bs at it relates to North Korea is probably overdue. However, now that NK has the meeting, I don't think they will feel particularly desperate to have the meeting mean anything. This is where Trump is both something of a positive and incredibly dangerous. It's probably good to have a new approach to this problem. However, his endless desire for wins and deals means that anything is possible. Nuclearization in return for the US leaving the peninsula? Well, that will send a hell of a message to the world. But Trump could see it as a historical foreign policy triumph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 12 hours ago, Renegade7 said: Gotta start somewhere. I'd be shocked if they give up their nukes. Gaddafi and Saddam both gave up on their early-stage nuke programs, and look what happened to them. Took us a while, but I can't tell how seriously worried Iran is we'll re-nig on them, too. I'm not sure these are analogous. Lybia gave up its early stage program in order to get in good with the Bushes. I'm not sure having nukes would have prevented the revolt that came later. I think a nuclear-armed nation is just as susceptible to a coup as anyone else. Now for NK, is denuclearization worth it if it gets the US out of SK? It may be. At that point, NK still has all its artillery pointed at Seoul, but it would not necessarily be killing 10,000 to 15,000 Americans if it unleashed it. Our policy there has always been some sort of voluntary hostage situation. If you kill a few thousand Americans, the American public is going to demand a response. If you invade South Korea and there are no deaths of American soldiers, do you think the public is going to demand an invasion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 Just as an FYI, the word is "renege." Spelling it phonetically might lead to problems in some settings. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 Also add in the fact that, despite what he assuredly believes, Trump is a ****ty negotiator and has zero experience in negotiations this complex and involved, nor does anyone on his team. He also has nobody with NK expertise to work on it, not that he'd listen to that person anyway. Almost no chance that we don't get completely played here. NK will trumpet it in their own country and all over the world as a win for them, a testament to their might, and propagandize it. We'll get nothing but a couple of vapid promises but it will be enough for Trump to sign or say anything so he can scream "WIN!" while the rest of the world collectively sighs and facepalms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcsluggo Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 Quote History in the making?The pros and cons of a summit between Donald Trump and Kim Jong Un Democracy in America Mar 9th 2018 by D.S.O.R. | WASHINGTON, DC TO SUPPORTERS of Donald Trump, March 8th’s news that the North Korean leader Kim Jong Un wants to meet America’s president, and soon, only goes to prove the potency of a foreign policy that blends toughness with just a dash of crazy. To Mr Trump’s sceptics, it is as obvious that such an unprecedented summit would be a terrifying gamble. After the announcement that Mr Trump is willing to meet Mr Kim as soon as May, much of the professional Korea-watching community rose up on social media and cable news to deplore the blustering, impulsive and fact-scorning 45th president as the last man they would send to negotiate with the ruthless, carefully prepared North Korean regime. Each camp has a point. Successive American administrations have spent years on cautious, painstaking diplomacy with the Kim family dynasty, backed by a judicious mix of sanctions and bribes. After each deal was reached the North Koreans pocketed the aid and concessions on offer, broke their word and returned to their decades-long quest to develop nuclear weapons. At best, all that expertise and patience might have slowed North Korea’s path to a bomb by a few years. ... <much more at link... i'm not sure if it is behind a paywall, or not>> https://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2018/03/history-making Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcsluggo Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 5 minutes ago, mistertim said: Also add in the fact that, despite what he assuredly believes, Trump is a ****ty negotiator and has zero experience in negotiations this complex and involved, nor does anyone on his team. He also has nobody with NK expertise to work on it, not that he'd listen to that person anyway. Almost no chance that we don't get completely played here. NK will trumpet it in their own country and all over the world as a win for them, a testament to their might, and propagandize it. We'll get nothing but a couple of vapid promises but it will be enough for Trump to sign or say anything so he can scream "WIN!" while the rest of the world collectively sighs and facepalms. agreed... the last paragraph of that economist link.... : Quote .....Still allies have grounds to worry. Mr Trump may have something more ambitious in mind than a listening exercise. Reporters asked a senior administration official why a face-to-face leaders’ meeting did not need to be preceded by rounds of talks by lower-level officials. He said President Trump made his reputation on making deals. Kim Jong Un is the one person who is able to make decisions under their authoritarian—uniquely authoritarian—or totalitarian system. And so it made sense to accept an invitation to meet with the one person who can actually make decisions instead of repeating the, sort of, long slog of the past. What could be more satisfying than a sudden, historic deal to make all those mocking experts and diplomats eat their words? And to pull off a quick win, Mr Trump the salesman has long been willing to promise anything—especially when someone else will pay the price for failure. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 I...don’t think they understand how the government in North Korea works. Hell, they don’t even understand how our government works. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 What are the odds for Trump giving an off the cuff and public promise to pull our military out of the Korean peninsula in exchange for something with no substance behind it but that "seems" like a win for President Dennison? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said: I'm not sure these are analogous. Lybia gave up its early stage program in order to get in good with the Bushes. I'm not sure having nukes would have prevented the revolt that came later. I think a nuclear-armed nation is just as susceptible to a coup as anyone else. Now for NK, is denuclearization worth it if it gets the US out of SK? It may be. At that point, NK still has all its artillery pointed at Seoul, but it would not necessarily be killing 10,000 to 15,000 Americans if it unleashed it. Our policy there has always been some sort of voluntary hostage situation. If you kill a few thousand Americans, the American public is going to demand a response. If you invade South Korea and there are no deaths of American soldiers, do you think the public is going to demand an invasion? Maybe, but they gave up their WMDs as well. Saddam was basically using those to keep people under control back in the day. Think I'm more coming from the standpoint of Foreign powers not getting involved in fear of retaliation via those weapons. Libya may be the only example of one of them possibly falling anyway because how insanely unpopular Gaddafi was at the time that happened, but I would assume if they didn't give up their WMDs, that country wouldn't be the same one that fell in 2011. It may be similar to Syria where we half-ass supported the resistance instead, but to this day, I really believe we were just using them to go after ISIS. Obama had no intent on overthrowing Assad, didn't want to get bogged into another Middle East war.. In regards to NK, I think it depends if we still keep in place the security agreement we have with them in terms of a possible invasion (I think its bilateral, but can't confirm if its similar to what we have if say China invades Taiwan). We might not have a choice if NK decides to invade even if we leave SK, what would stop China from going after Taiwan if we do nothing? This may seem crazy, but I really think we should get our troops out of SK regardless of denuclearization to help de-escalate the situation, and keep the defense agreement just in case. NK mentioned not to long ago that even though they have artillery pointed at SK, their nukes are pointed at us (I believe them considering there's more of threat of us invading then SK). 1 hour ago, Dan T. said: Just as an FYI, the word is "renege." Spelling it phonetically might lead to problems in some settings. I fixed it, honestly thought that was a slang term, not an actual word Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 (edited) The sooner Trump meets with Kim Jong Un the more of a catastrophe it will be as the less prepared we'll be and the more likely it is that Trump goes rogue and does or says something insanely stupid. Trying to figure out Bolton's angle in urging Trump to do it so soon. Maybe he wants to make sure that the blame for the inevitable cluster**** can't land at his feet so he pushes for it to happen before he even gets there as NSA. Edited March 9, 2018 by mistertim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanboyOf91 Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 15 minutes ago, FanboyOf91 said: 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 (edited) Edited March 9, 2018 by visionary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 It's really becoming clear that we've elected some idiot from Queens who used to call Mike and the Mad Dog in the morning and Bob Grant in the afternoon. If I was the Jets' coach, I would put an end to these penalties. If I was president, I would stop these other countries from pushing us around. We elected Frankie from Far Rockaway. Except I think Franke from Far Rockaway would recognize pretty quickly how in over his head he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 (edited) Edited March 10, 2018 by visionary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 (edited) If this works, its going to be a victory for Trump that he'll be able to lump in with getting his tax cuts. This one I'll actually be fine with, its in all our best interests if he gets this right and can lead to normalizing relations with them. Official end to Korean War and trading embassies may just be wishful thinking, but when's this last we been this close to this? Edited March 11, 2018 by Renegade7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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