New York: When Did the GOP Lose Touch With Reality? by David Frum

[twa]

I'm still curious how this method will create jobs on a national level.

You think we cannot entice foreign investment and manufacturers ect to the US?

Texas has brought in a bunch from outside the US,as well as greatly increased exports

but this sidetrack is best left to one of the other threads imo....unless ya insist

[Predicto]

I'm still trying to figure out what got H_H all pissed off in this thread. No one put words into his mouth or unfairly characterized the current conservative movement, not Furm or anyone who posted here, as far as I can tell. Of course, I'm a liberal, so maybe I just can't see it. :whoknows:

Mostly I'm wondering why post #31 wasn't your first post in this thread, H_H, because you pretty much seem to be agreeing with Frum on 98 percent of what he is saying, while getting mad at him for saying it. :whoknows:

[PeterMP]

That's not "the number" at all.

That's like saying "Obama got 88% of the black vote. So the black vote is the democrat base."

Well, using the Obama election I'd say that the Democrat base is a little more broad than the Republican base (e.g. I'd include Hispanics) because they got more of the total vote, but the black vote is ABSOLUTELY a LARGE part of the Democratic base.

(A party that lost an election, espeically in a pretty over whelming manner, is going to appear to have a pretty small base.)

[Fred Jones]

I work with a lot of Republicans, and I found this article spot on. Some graduated from college, some did not. Pretty much all watch Fox News, listens to talk radio and spew the party line bashing Obama covering pretty much everything the article pointed out.

I consider myself middle of the road. Next November I plan on writing in Mark Warner because I don't like any of the current offerings. At work however, I am labled a liberal Obama lover, get accused of voting for him and blamed for everthing he has done wrong even though I did not vote for him and consider him a liberal elitist. The author must have visited my work and interviewed the mostly Republican workforce because trying to explain to them the same problem issues is akin to treason.

What is sad is the author is correct as well when he points the problem is just getting worse. Neither party can look in the mirror anymore and see what they have become. The liberal students in CA unfairly bashing the police to the right wing painting Obama as just plain evil.

Lastly, as I have pointed out in the past, pain across the board at all levels in both parties is required to fix the problem. Like that would EVER happen short of a revolution.

---------- Post added December-14th-2011 at 08:44 PM ----------

I'm still trying to figure out what got H_H all pissed off in this thread.

I read his posts and thought I was at work talking to brain-washed Republicans spitting out the Fox News, talk radio, some of the presidentail candidates rhetoric. Unable to step back and see the big picture. Unable to see balance, to find a common ground solution, unable to not hate.

Sorry for the rough words, but to me it is obvious what he is saying and why. I hear it ALL the time. And, lastly, when the brain-washed right wing people read the above words, I will immediately be labled a left-wing liberal who has a hand in their pocket taking their money, their guns, their right to work and supporting the worst president in history.

On a side note, I received my invitation via email today to attend the annual Christmas party at the NRA headquarters.

[Larry]

I think the bigger problem is the fragmentation of information and media, means that the loons literally have their own reality, now. Their own "facts".

I also suspect that the pool of loons (on both sides) might be getting larger. Yeah, back in the old days, there were people who followed JFK conspiracy theories, who spent their lives only talking to each other, reinforcing their alternate reality. But they were a tiny, tiny, minority.

Now days, I think that while, for example, all Republicans don't believe that, say, Obama tripled the deficit, I wouldn't be surprised if more than half of them do.

[Thiebear]

This statement is completely false: NO way to spin that McCain who wouldn't even look Candidate Obama's directions without a Please and a Thank you has anything to do in this crazy paragraph of the 3%.

====================

It is precisely these disaffected whites—especially those who didn’t go to college—who form the Republican voting base. John McCain got 58 percent of noncollege-white votes in 2008. The GOP polls even higher among that group today, but the party can only sustain those numbers as long as it gives voice to alienation. Birtherism, the claim that President Obama was not born in the United States, expressed the feeling of many that power has shifted into alien hands. That feeling will not be easily quelled by Republican electoral success, because it is based on a deep sense of dispossession and disinheritance.

====================

McCain himself was a birtherism so he wan't calling out others.

[elkabong82]

I'm sure they would like to, but then they lose votes from the poor, uneducated white folk. Let's not forget the number one concern of a politician is to get reelected. The tea party did some damage/good (depending on your viewpoint) this past election and people who wouldn't fall in line with the tea party lost their seat. In a representative democracy, its the people that need changing.

Therefore, I see the GOP as being dominated by a laughable group of wackos for several years to come. Which is pretty much how all of Europe views the Republican party in America.

I had hope for the Tea Party, and a couple of their prominent members in power, while I disagree with them on some issues, have stuck to their guns with fiscal conservancy. My problem with them is they fell right in line with every single extreme right perspective on a social issue, it seems, and that has gotten them to use politically motivated targets for spending cuts (such as NPR and PBS which are educational and don't cost enough to be significant savings) rather than sticking with realistic cuts, or at least trying to compromise and come up with viable solutions instead of contributing to the stalemates. Of course then you have the left who are seemingly too scared to step up and say that since they compromised on spending cuts the right needs to compromise on other deficit reduction formats, specifically with tax cuts and loopholes instead they just play the stalemate game too, which helps nobody.

---------- Post added December-15th-2011 at 12:38 AM ----------

I do think that that's a point worth repeating.

A lot of Americans like to complain about politicians, while denying responsibility, themselves.

You both make that point well. People in general need to be more willing to hear and consider 3rd party candidates. You can't keep voting for Pepsi or Coke and expect a milkshake at some point.

[gbear]

Elk, maybe the left isn't "stepping up" with other reduction formats because they believe after all the compromises they had to make while on the clock so to speak, the shoe is now on the other foot. I know many of my more liberal friends take the position that if the Dems refuse to give another inch, the worst that can happen is the Bush tax cuts expire. Since they believe the Bush tax cuts were more favorable to the rich than the poor, there is a feeling leting them expire is one small step towards a more equitable across social strata solution.

[NavyDave]

Well when you job creation is mostly stealing...erm..."re-locating" jobs from other states, then there are only so many that can trumpet it.

.

Shouldn't businesses big and small have the right to move to an environment that allows them to thrive and be profitable? And here I thought you were pro choice.

[elkabong82]

Elk, maybe the left isn't "stepping up" with other reduction formats because they believe after all the compromises they had to make while on the clock so to speak, the shoe is now on the other foot. I know many of my more liberal friends take the position that if the Dems refuse to give another inch, the worst that can happen is the Bush tax cuts expire. Since they believe the Bush tax cuts were more favorable to the rich than the poor, there is a feeling leting them expire is one small step towards a more equitable across social strata solution.

The Dems need to be more vocal about it, was my point. Instead of just sitting back and allowing stalemates to occur they need to be going on the offensive and getting the message out that they've compromised but the other side refuses to do so. They need to use public pressure, and they really don't, instead it seems they just allow stalemates to happen and then try and play the blame game after the fact. They need to use strategy, not posturing.

[DeaconTheVillain]

I read his posts and thought I was at work talking to brain-washed Republicans spitting out the Fox News, talk radio, some of the presidentail candidates rhetoric. Unable to step back and see the big picture. Unable to see balance, to find a common ground solution, unable to not hate.

Sorry for the rough words, but to me it is obvious what he is saying and why. I hear it ALL the time. And, lastly, when the brain-washed right wing people read the above words, I will immediately be labled a left-wing liberal who has a hand in their pocket taking their money, their guns, their right to work and supporting the worst president in history.

On a side note, I received my invitation via email today to attend the annual Christmas party at the NRA headquarters.

Looks like Hog saw the thread title and assumed that it was some left wing blog guy or something. When he realized it wasn't he was embarrassed

[AsburySkinsFan]

Let's leave H_H alone, there is way more than enough here to discuss than that petty stuff.

I for one am surprised that I haven't heard the charge of RINO yet from some of our more predictable members.

But, man it is something to hear all the critiques about the GOP that have come from the Middle and Left now coming from those within the GOP...and not just lackeys.

[The Sisko]

FWIW, I agree in principle that the GOP is broken right now. The hardline conservatives have the market cornered on social issues. While people who have no business calling themselves conservative have control of our spending ideals. If anything, the exact opposite should be true.

I will always be a fiscal conservative (real sense, not lip service while drastically increasing the size of the federal government.) Yet I've become a social moderate over the last few years, thanks in no small part to arguing with some well-educated friends on the other side right here on ES. I now favor civil unions for ALL consenting adults. I understand (if not support) abortion in an ever-expanding variety of cases. And there are any other host of social issues that I find myself taking a moderate, or even left-leaning stance around here.

The problem is, there's no voice for people like me in my own party. There's no place for those who want to see us working with democrats to find real, true consensus, especially on social issues. And I think that's going to be the key to the GOP's success going forward. We're going to have to give ground on some of these social issues. We're going to have to be rational, and responsible, and realize that times change; and on some levels, our values need to adapt.

I'm fine with drawing a hard line in the sand fiscally. I'm fine with reining in spending. I'm fine with opposing a mandate to purchase a private product. I think fiscally, if we'd actually DO it, conservatism would be good for us right now. But we simply have to be more progressive socially, or we will, and should, get left behind.

---------- Post added December-14th-2011 at 06:16 PM ----------

IMO, he made such far-reaching blanket generalizations about republicans (that aren't nearly as homogenous as some think) that he might've even gotten some of that paint on some liberals. Like I said in my previous post, I'm AT LEAST a social moderate. At least. And yet I get painted with that brush. Why not ASF?

Now. Could you please explain where I said anything resembling "pinko commie?"

Do me a favor H_H. Re-read your post above and tell me (honestly) what a GOP candidate who said what you just did would be called by most in the GOP nowadays. Welcome to RINO-land my friend. Today's GOP is all about purity nowadays. You just don't make the break these days. Sorry to be the one to break it to you but you're just not what's considered a "real" conservative/Republican anymore.

More than anything I think this phenomenon proves the author's point. Specifically, the GOP doesn't have any new ideas other than "cut taxes for the rich...'er "job creators" and you guys in the middle class, just keep waiting for it to trickle down". I've busted my ass for any number of years and it sure as hell hasn't trickled down for me. How 'bout you?

I don't have to go back and search your posts during the Obama/McCain election because I remember them well. IIRC, the primary reason you voted for Obama was because you didn't have health insurance. Because Obama and the Dems decided to compromise on the public option and instead went with the personal mandate, do you now feel betrayed? If Obama and the Dems had just pushed the public option through, would you now be singing his praises? Just curious.

That's not "the number" at all.

That's like saying "Obama got 88% of the black vote. So the black vote is the democrat base."

Except that if you look at who actually won Obama the election it wasn't Blacks or liberals but rather independents. So turning that around, McCain lost with uneducated Whites and a minority of independents...to the extent that those two groups don't overlap anyway. This phenomenon is precisely the reason that Obama has tried his best, nevermind the bleating of the far right to the contrary, to stay as close to the center as possible, even at the expense of alienating the liberal base at times.

No matter what you or anyone in the "true believer" GOP camp says, the further to the right they keep running, the more of the country they keep alienating. Like some of the others of us here who used to be under the tent I've figured it out. I just wonder when you will too.

[Thiebear]

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) said that extending unemployment benefits would add “600,000 jobs to our economy.”

And yes, only the stupid people voted for McCain...

[Larry]

No matter what you or anyone in the "true believer" GOP camp says, the further to the right they keep running, the more of the country they keep alienating. Like some of the others of us here who used to be under the tent I've figured it out. I just wonder when you will too.

Oh, he's well aware of The GOP running off the right edge of the table.

I think what he's complaining bout here is that he reads the author's comments that uneducated, disgruntled, whites make up a big part of the GOP base, and he thinks the guy said that "all Republicans are . . . "

(And he knows that they all aren't, because he's one.)

---------- Post added December-15th-2011 at 09:35 PM ----------

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) said that extending unemployment benefits would add “600,000 jobs to our economy.”

And yes, only the stupid people voted for McCain...

Thiebear argues with things that the OP never said.

And yes, he points fingers at Nancy Pelosi.

[Predicto]

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) said that extending unemployment benefits would add “600,000 jobs to our economy.”

And yes, only the stupid people voted for McCain...

I think some economists would agree with her. Extending unemployment benefits would hurt the deficit, but it would also stimulate the economy and create jobs.

[LadySkinsFan]

Right around the time that Reagan declared that it was Morning in America.

[Larry]

I think some economists would agree with her. Extending unemployment benefits would hurt the deficit, but it would also stimulate the economy and create jobs.

Not even a pretend economist, but I think claiming it will create jobs is one heck of a reach. I think it's possible that it might prevent the loss if that many jobs, but that's not the same thing.

[alexey]

Nothing will change unless we change our campaign finance system.

[The Sisko]

Agreed Alexey. Unfortunately both parties have their hands in the till so I don't see the institutionalized graft that passes for our campaign finance system changing anytime soon.

[AsburySkinsFan]

This is a bit old March, 2010. But it is more on David Frum....the video is from Olbermann who I don't care for but it speaks about the same issues.

http://crooksandliars.com/nicole-belle/breaking-reagans-11th-commandment-got

[Tulane Skins Fan]

I think some economists would agree with her. Extending unemployment benefits would hurt the deficit, but it would also stimulate the economy and create jobs.

People really have a hard time understanding that lowering the deficit does not equal job creation, and vice versa, that increasing the deficit does not equal job loss.