The Jarmon/Gaffney and Holliday/Hightower Trades in Hindsight

[TSO]

I think it simply can't be understated how well we've done with most of our trades thus far, but none more apparent than the Jarmon/Gaffney and Holliday/Hightower trades.

At first, a lot of us were questioning whether the Gaffney/Jarmon trade was a smart move considering the youth and upside in Jarmon who had played well whenever given an opportunity and the fact that Gaffney probably has a few years left of being a top 2 wideout.

However, as the preseason has gone by and the roster has come into focus, we see exactly what kind of thinking went behind this trade. Jarmon at DE doesn't have a roster spot. Jarmon at OLB doesn't either, though he came into camp vying for a position at DE so that's a moot point. Even if he hadn't, I don't think he could've beat Rob Jackson, Lorenzo Alexander or even Markus White for a backup spot there. Of course, when it comes to DE, losing Jenkins for the season hurts and he may have been able to stick because of it; but Darrion Scott, Kedric Golston and even Doug Worthington in all likelihood would've taken roster spots over him there. Simply put, we got Gaffney for free, especially when factoring in a healthy Jenkins at the time. The thought process behind this trade was impeccable, and you'd have to be an absolute flaming negative nancy to ask for more from an FO.

The same goes for the Holliday/Hightower deal. Many were bummed out by losing Holliday because he was one of the better DEs on the team last year, but with the preseason being over we now see exactly what happened here. Again, Holliday has no place on this roster, especially with a healthy Jenkins on it. But even without Jenkins, would you cut Scott for him, who's played lights out? How about Golston, who's also played really well? Even Worthington, an undrafted FA has played admirably at DE and has enormous upside going forward. This team is simply stacked at DE, and the vast majority of us (to no fault of our own) did not forsee that development. However, our FO did. So, again, you simply can't ask for more from Bruce and Shanny here. We got a potential 1,500 yard back who can pass-block as well as catch passes with the best of them for years to come in Hightower for free! Simply magnificent.

To re-iterate, we got Hightower and Gaffney, two very productive players, one still very young and the other still in his prime for guys, in all likelihood, we would have cut come tomorrow. We did this before the rest of the NFL knew that. Just incredible.

[ncr2h]

Not that I disagree with your overall point, but we did give up a 3rd for Jarmon and we gave the Cards a late round pick for Hightower. We also dropped a few picks on RBs this draft, so if any of those RBs get cut you could say that we essentially used their pick to acquire Hightower. Also keep in mind that the Broncos could potentially get 10 years out of Jarmon, while even if we're being optimistic we're looking at 2 productive seasons out of Gaffney.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Not that I disagree with your overall point, but we did give up a 3rd for Jarmon and we gave the Cards a late round pick for Hightower. We also dropped a few picks on RBs this draft, so if any of those RBs get cut you could say that we essentially used their pick to acquire Hightower. Also keep in mind that the Broncos could potentially get 10 years out of Jarmon, while even if we're being optimistic we're looking at 2 productive seasons out of Gaffney.

1) We either gave up a draft pick or a player for Gaffney...not both. And Shanahan and Allen didn't have that draft pick to use, they only had the player--a player who wasn't about to fit in with the Redskins defense anytime soon and more than likely would have been cut way before he'd be able to contribute anything on the field. And Gaffney only has 2 productive seasons left in him? If he stays healthy he could easily have 3-4 productive seasons with the Redskins.

2) You can't say we "essentially" used any of the draft picks this year that were spent on a running back on Hightower lol...that doesn't even make sense. Whether or not any of the RBs we drafted remain on the team is irrelevant in terms of what we gave up for Hightower--and what we gave up was infinitesimal compared to what we realistically could be gaining. We still would have been able to make the Hightower trade no matter what position we used that 6th round pick on.

[skinsnshanny]

I think it simply can't be understated how well we've done with most of our trades thus far, but none more apparent than the Jarmon/Gaffney and Holliday/Hightower trades.

At first, a lot of us were questioning whether the Gaffney/Jarmon trade was a smart move considering the youth and upside in Jarmon who had played well whenever given an opportunity and the fact that Gaffney probably has a few years left of being a top 2 wideout.

However, as the preseason has gone by and the roster has come into focus, we see exactly what kind of thinking went behind this trade. Jarmon at DE doesn't have a roster spot. Jarmon at OLB doesn't either, though he came into camp vying for a position at DE so that's a moot point. Even if he hadn't, I don't think he could've beat Rob Jackson, Lorenzo Alexander or even Markus White for a backup spot there. Of course, when it comes to DE, losing Jenkins for the season hurts and he may have been able to stick because of it; but Darrion Scott, Kedric Golston and even Doug Worthington in all likelihood would've taken roster spots over him there. Simply put, we got Gaffney for free, especially when factoring in a healthy Jenkins at the time. The thought process behind this trade was impeccable, and you'd have to be an absolute flaming negative nancy to ask for more from an FO.

The same goes for the Holliday/Hightower deal. Many were bummed out by losing Holliday because he was one of the better DEs on the team last year, but with the preseason being over we now see exactly what happened here. Again, Holliday has no place on this roster, especially with a healthy Jenkins on it. But even without Jenkins, would you cut Scott for him, who's played lights out? How about Golston, who's also played really well? Even Worthington, an undrafted FA has played admirably at DE and has enormous upside going forward. This team is simply stacked at DE, and the vast majority of us (to no fault of our own) did not forsee that development. However, our FO did. So, again, you simply can't ask for more from Bruce and Shanny here. We got a potential 1,500 yard back who can pass-block as well as catch passes with the best of them for years to come in Hightower for free! Simply magnificent.

To re-iterate, we got Hightower and Gaffney, two very productive players, one still very young and the other still in his prime for guys, in all likelihood, we would have cut come tomorrow. We did this before the rest of the NFL knew that. Just incredible.

While both these trades seem very positive (though 0 games played), I think the statement "just incredible" shows how bad things have been around here. These types of moves are what teams are supposed to do. Neither move is the Ricky Williams trade (that was incredible).

Remember AZ was prob going to cut hightower as they had drafted a new back to put with Beanie who they had also recently drafted. (Much like the injury to Jenkins tho, their rook got hurt). So from AZ's side they could easily say the same, we got xyz for a guy we were going to cut.

I think the same can almost be said of the Broncos too who were very crowded at WR....Lloyd exploded, Royal has been good and is young, and DT was a first round pick. Not to mention they just added Decker. That means gaffney while productive, didnt really have a spot. hence they also got a player for a guy who didnt fit.

---This is how trades should work. We are just jaded due to TJ Duckett style trades,

[Mercuryrising]

So we just declare that Jarmon would not have done anythings, and thus it is so?

Why don't we see how he plays in Denver before we decide?

[Rpredskins]

Arizona had to get rid of Hightower to make room for their next rookie RB, who in 3 years will be traded to Shanahan for camp fodder once again. I'm so glad we don't use high draft picks on RBs, total hit or miss and if you happen to get a ridiculous player like Chris Johnson then you end up having to overpay him

btw how can you say "in hindsight"? You mean in foresight... nothing has happened yet

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I whole heartedly agree with you on the THT trade. But I TOTALLY disagree on the Gafney one.

I've never understood this belief that Jarmon couldn't transition to a 34 end. If you want to run an elite 34 D, it's imperative you have linemen that can rush the opposing QB. Doing that opens up so many more options with the guys behind, your LB's and safeties. (Not that I'm convinced Coach Haslett is that inventive to ever do that anyways, but that's another story.). Jeremy Jarmon, since Orakpo and the rookie Kerrigan have been moved to OLB, was our best option to do that on this team, and was productive in the meagre time he actually got to play. (I just looked it up out of interest. He was on the field for a mere 65 total snaps last year, of which 48 were rushes with 6 QB pressures and a sack. By far and away the best pass rush rate per snap on the team.). He spent most of last year working on bulking up his body by 30 pounds and more for the rigors required of a 34 end. Hell, he's bigger now than the guy who went in the other trade you mentioned, Holliday. A guy many applauded for his vet. contribution in nickel packages last year. Jeremy Jarmon was primed for a real good season in this D as an effective, multi-down 34 end IMHO. He'd put in the work to add size to his speed and moves as a rusher. To let such promise go at 23 on a rebuilding team for a career average receiver who'll be 31 through this coming season is one of the worst moves we made in an otherwise very good FA on the whole for me. Even more so when it took away from a position of need; and added to one we had already assembled a pretty darn promising young corp. along with the vets. Moss and Armstrong. (In his case vet. in age, not in actual game experience.).

I'll lay good money Jarmon thrives way more in Denver under Fox than Gaffney does here.

I hope this is the VERY last time we trade away a very promising draft pick here. When do you see the top franchises like Pittsburgh, GB, Indy etc do that? They build around these core players and have years of consistent success that way. Jeremy Jarmon was primed for his chance, and we let that go. It's biting even more now Jarvis is lost for the year.

Said it at the time, and I'm saying it again now, "Terrible, TERRIBLE trade." And nothing will convince me otherwise.

Hail.

[MartinC]

So we just declare that Jarmon would not have done anythings, and thus it is so?

Why don't we see how he plays in Denver before we decide?

Denver play a 4-3 and Jarmon is a fit as a LDE in a 4-3. How he may or may not play in Denver has no relevance to how he might have played here.

He had no position in the 3-4 we play - he maybe could have played DE in our nickel but it was very unlikely he would be kept around just for that role given the talent we added thisnyear along the line - though Jenkins injury maybe would have opened up a spot for him. We are stacked at OLB at least in terms of numbers and we will be cutting at least one decent OLB so he had no shot of getting a spot there.

GHH - comment your post above. I agree Jarmon could have made a contribution as a specialist pass rusher but he was a liability against the run as a 3-4 end. There were plays last year when he was blocked past the nose tackle on runs outside him. We are just a better team this year along that line with Cofield and Bowen plus Jenkins and there was no spot for a situational pass rusher.

As I noted Jenkins injury maybe opened up a spot but that's hindsight.

[TheREALJBird]

The Hightower trade was a steal, we'll see how the Jarmon for Gaffney trade pans out. Jarmon didn't show a whole lot here, despite us using a 3rd round pick to acquire him in the supplemental draft. Some people are so just so hard pressed to think that every player on the team has to be young, that they don't factor in production. I think Jarmon will be mediocre at best in Denver, we'll see.

[s0crates]

Tim Hightower looks great, he could be a steal for us. I love the fact that he is a local product.

Gaffney looks like he will make a big contribution too. I think the fact that he and Grossman played together at Florida greatly increases his value to our team.

The OP is probably right that Jarmon and Holliday would not have been able to make this roster, which means we got two guys who will be a big part of this offense for next to nothing.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I whole heartedly agree with you on the THT trade. But I TOTALLY disagree on the Gafney one.

I've never understood this belief that Jarmon couldn't transition to a 34 end.

Whether or not Jarmon "could" have transitioned into a productive 3-4 DE is not really the point...the point was that so far Jarmon had not shown he could do so, and far more importantly it appeared that after reviewing his play and his injuries, Shanahan and Haslett did not have Jarmon in their plans.

Put another way, Shanahan and Allen could have just released Jarmon, especially after so many of the DE prospects that were brought in have been looking as good if not better than Jarmon so far (as submitted pointed out). They took a guy who apparently was NOT going to fit in here, and replaced him with a guy who fit in damn near immediately. If he goes on to be productive for the Broncos, then good for him and for them. But from the looks of things they don't run a 3-4...so even IF Jarmon goes on to be a success, it won't mean he would have succeeded here, or anywhere else where they run a 3-4 defense.

If you want to run an elite 34 D, it's imperative you have linemen that can rush the opposing QB. Doing that opens up so many more options with the guys behind, your LB's and safeties. (Not that I'm convinced Coach Haslett is that inventive to ever do that anyways, but that's another story.). Jeremy Jarmon, since Orakpo and the rookie Kerrigan have been moved to OLB, was our best option to do that on this team, and was productive in the meagre time he actually got to play. (I just looked it up out of interest. He was on the field for a mere 65 total snaps last year, of which 48 were rushes with 6 QB pressures and a sack. By far and away the best pass rush rate per snap on the team.).

I'm not one who's big on taking really small sample sizes and extrapolating them to entire seasons. There's no way to take the claim that Jarmon would have kept up that same rate of QB pressures if given a lot more time on the field. Plus, it doesn't take into account what the coaches see in practice, what they see in film study, does he understand his responsibilities and is he disciplined enough to stick to them, etc, etc. A small sampling of stats from 60 defensive snaps should never be the deciding factor.

And in reality, that's what the Skins got with Gaffney: a player who will see the field a LOT this season, a ton more than Jarmon would have, even IF they used him more. One who will definitely play a pivotal role on the offense over the next several seasons in a unit that has been lacking talent in an embarrassing way for most of the last 20 years. Paul and Hankerson have both proven they aren't quite ready to take on the role that Gaffney will be taking on. In fact, Austin is the only young WR who has stepped up to the plate so far.

They traded a spot player who was injured and only played in 5% of the snaps for a player who will be an integral piece of the offense for the next 3+ years. There was no guarantee that Jarmon would even BE on the team this year. In fact, he JUST got promoted to the 2nd string in Denver. Gaffney's been a starter from day 1...

Jeremy Jarmon was primed for a real good season in this D as an effective, multi-down 34 end IMHO. He'd put in the work to add size to his speed and moves as a rusher. To let such promise go at 23 on a rebuilding team for a career average receiver who'll be 31 through this coming season is one of the worst moves we made in an otherwise very good FA on the whole for me.

Then why do you think they so easily traded him away?

And the Broncos are using him at DT more than at DE so far.

Even more so when it took away from a position of need; and added to one we had already assembled a pretty darn promising young corp. along with the vets. Moss and Armstrong. (In his case vet. in age, not in actual game experience.).

Again...so far only Austin has shown up from the young WRs. Hankerson keeps having the drops, Paul hasn't stood out in any way, shape or form, and Robinson's biggest achievement so far has been fumbling two consecutive punts on returns. Our "promising young corp" of receivers has--outside of Austin--barely registered a blip so far. We would have been seeking out a vet WR right now anyway, I truly believe that. And we wouldn't have ended up with one as good as Gaffney, all while holding on to Jarmon, who would most likely have been only playing against 3rd stringers in the preseason.

I'll lay good money Jarmon thrives way more in Denver under Fox than Gaffney does here.

Again, he'll be playing in a 4-3, so the comparisons would be moot...but even with that, I bet Gaffney contributes more in his time here, than Jarmon contributes to the Broncos during that same timespan.

I hope this is the VERY last time we trade away a very promising draft pick here. When do you see the top franchises like Pittsburgh, GB, Indy etc do that? They build around these core players and have years of consistent success that way.

Please don't tell me that you considered Jarmon a "core player" worth building around lol...

Jeremy Jarmon was primed for his chance, and we let that go. It's biting even more now Jarvis is lost for the year.

Jarmon never once showed the same abilities that Jenkins has so far. Carriker would still be ahead of Jarmon, and probably a few others would as well.

Said it at the time, and I'm saying it again now, "Terrible, TERRIBLE trade." And nothing will convince me otherwise.

Hail.

Not even if the Broncos cut Jarmon during the season and nobody else picks him up? lol

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I still remain to be convinced Cali. Appreciate the effort though.

Hail.

[s0crates]

I'll lay good money Jarmon thrives way more in Denver under Fox than Gaffney does here.

If I were a gambling man, I would take that bet. Maybe Jarmon will be good and maybe he won't, but I am quite confident that Gaffney will be very productive here. I'll tell you why:

Jabar Gaffney and Rex Grossman were the dynamic duo for the Florida Gators. In 2001, the two connected on 67 passes for 1191 yards and 13 touchdowns. They were one of the best teams in the country with a 10-2 record. Rex was completing well over 60% of his passes the two years he was playing with Gaffney as his #1 target. When Gaffney got drafted in 2002, Rex's stats dropped dramatically (7% drop in completion percentage, 90 fewer yards per game, 12 fewer TDs, 5 more interceptions).

Of course we all know that 2002 was also the year that the old ball coach left Florida, but my point is that Rex and Gaffney have a connection, and I think it is a valid point. Gaffney is likely to be one of Rex's favorite targets. We have seen glimpses of this already in the preseason.

So my money says Gaffney will be more productive, not because there is any good reason to bet against Jarmon, but because there is just so much reason to bet on Gaffney in this situation, even allowing for the fact that Gaffney is getting older.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

That's presuming Rex get's the gig of course a week tomorrow.

And thanks man for making me shudder at the memory of he who shall not be mentioned this Saturday morning. :mad:. 'The old ball coach' indeed. :slap:

Hail.

[Burgold]

Trading two players who were likely to be deep reserves or cut for two who became first string starters can't really be complained about too much. It's nice to be on this side of the trade ledger for once.

I agree with the OP.

*still would have loved to see a 4-3 with Orakpo on one end and Jarmon on the other.... ah well.

[s0crates]

That's presuming Rex get's the gig of course a week tomorrow.

I do assume Rex will get the job. Maybe that is a big assumption, but I would be pretty surprised if it were not the case. I was rooting for Beck, and even I can admit Rex won the competition.

And thanks man for making me shudder at the memory of he who shall not be mentioned this Saturday morning. :mad:. 'The old ball coach' indeed. :slap:

Yeah, sorry about that. My point is that Rex used to throw to Gaffney a lot in college, and I am sure there is some chemistry there. Heck, Gaffney even completed a couple passes to Rex in the old "fun 'n gun."

Uh oh. Did it again.

[ouvan59]

Trading two players who were likely to be deep reserves or cut for two who became first string starters can't really be complained about too much.

Yet, we still find a way to.

[HailGreen28]

WAY too early to tell how good or bad these trades were. Hindsight, lol. "So far" is more accurate.

[tex]

Those trades fit perfectly with what the Skins FO is doing nowadays. Bruce and Shanny are doing the hard work it takes to find the guys that fit their template. The players that survive the weeding out process then get the opportunity to become Redskins. If this keeps up the future will become something to look forward to.

None of this would have been possible had the Dan not finally come to his senses and kicked Vinny out.

HTTR

[Mania]

So we just declare that Jarmon would not have done anythings, and thus it is so?

Why don't we see how he plays in Denver before we decide?

How he does in Denver is a moot point as they run a 4-3 defense. He didn't fit in q 3-4, and we (members of ES) knew this before. The start of 2010. If he does well in Denver it only says that the trade worked for both teams, assuming Gaffney does well in B&G.

[SkinsTribeVA]

Hindsight? preseason's just now ending. try at least 8 more game before we talk about "hindsight."

[NewCliche21]

thesubmittedone: The Redskins made two great moves!

The rest of ES: **** you! The Redskins suck! We only make bad moves! JARMON FOR PRESIDENT!

[SWFLSkins]

To re-iterate, we got Hightower and Gaffney, two very productive players, one still very young and the other still in his prime for guys, in all likelihood, we would have cut come tomorrow. We did this before the rest of the NFL knew that. Just incredible.

Great thread. Though I am a big Jarmon fan he probably was not as suited for this defense. And Gaffney might have been a luxury now knowing what kind of guys the team drafted. So I like the trade, but don't love it as much as the Holiday for Hightower one. Still I think it was good for all parties in the Jarmon trade.

[Stadium-Armory]

The local news last night listed Jarmon as "on the bubble". He may not even make the donkey's roster.

Ty Warren's injury might make it a bit more likely that he secures a spot, but he definitely isn't tearing it up out here.

[Destino]

Jeremy Jarmon was here two seasons. In that time he found his way into 16 games made 11 tackles (combined) and half a sack. Now this isn't to say that he won't be a star truth is the NFL is unpredictable and guys can find a system they thrive in. What he was for us however was a busted 3rd round pick. He didn't fit with our team and early indications are that Gaffney does.