The Jarmon/Gaffney and Holliday/Hightower Trades in Hindsight

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Hightower will need a new contract for next season' date=' but I can't see him wanting to move anywhere else. This is too good a situation for him to walk away from.

And Gaffney will play his contract through 2012, then we can assess how the younger guys at WR look before making a further commitment on him.[/quote']

The contracts are a good point to introduce. To me, the emergence of Helu over the next 14 games will play a big role in the Hightower talks. If Helu looks promising, we can afford to offer Hightower a more modest contract. As for Gaffney, I'm hoping he can take Stallworth's role on the team by 2013 and that our younger WRs can be relied upon to be our top guns.

[SWFLSkins]

Nope.

He might be contributing, and doubtless will all year being the vet., but I still wouldn't of made the Gaffney trade with the long term in mind.

Hail.

You're a very stubborn guy

I liked Jarmon too and thought he flashed very nicely as a rook before his injury, but given that he was cut and Gaffney is contributing more than solidly... I think it's hard to argue that we won the trade. Certainly, Denver didn't win the trade they got zero from it and lost a productive guy.

Hindsight is easy, foresight is difficult. I like the fact that Allen and Shannahan accurately used foresight to obtain a productive vet wideout and a RB with a chip on his shoulder. Both have come in and started, which is amazing. I loved getting Jarmon and thought he would be a steal, as for Vonnie he is a good player with limited long term upside. I think we gave up two players for two better players, so really we got the better end of the deal. I don't think if I were the GM I would have traded Jarmon for Gaffney considering age and upside. However it is easy to see that the Redskins FO made the better move at this point. And really if the team thought that Jarmon could contribute he is available I think.

[cubanl81]

Great trades all around. Gotta say first time in the Synder era I've truly felt comfortable with the direction of the team from top to bottom.

[DCsportsfan53]

How people are STILL saying the Gaffney trade was bad is beyond me. Look, if Jarmon was that good we could go sign him right now. The fact that we (and any other team) aren't should tell you all you need to know. We got a starting WR for a guy who's now not on any team and couldn't make the final 53 on a truly awful roster.....exactly what kind of mental gymnastics are required to still insist is was a bad long term move?

[SWFLSkins]

How people are STILL saying the Gaffney trade was bad is beyond me. Look, if Jarmon was that good we could go sign him right now. The fact that we (and any other team) aren't should tell you all you need to know. We got a starting WR for a guy who's now not on any team and couldn't make the final 53 on a truly awful roster.....exactly what kind of mental gymnastics are required to still insist is was a bad long term move?

Hahha. I personally would not dare say it was a bad trade. However at the time I was like, whoa really they are trading a third round pick for Gaffney? But obviously Shannallen knows best.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Hindsight is easy, foresight is difficult.

It's not so much that as I don't believe in those sort of moves when your rebuilding.

Now, the difference here is the Redskins obviously believe they can contend this year during rebuilding, hence why they made the trade for a vet. receiver. And two games in, it's certainly bore fruit. I aren't knocking it, just saying regardless it's not the way I'd of gone. I'd much rather Austin and Hankerson be active and learning on the field than sitting at the expense of Gaffney and Stallworth.

But then it's not my ass on the line and I get balancing the future with the here-and-now in today's 'what have you done for me lately' NFL.

Hail.

[SWFLSkins]

It's not so much that as I don't believe in those sort of moves when your rebuilding.

Now, the difference here is the Redskins obviously believe they can contend this year during rebuilding, hence why they made the trade for a vet. receiver. And two games in, it's certainly bore fruit. I aren't knocking it, just saying regardless it's not the way I'd of gone. I'd much rather Austin and Hankerson be active and learning on the field than sitting at the expense of Gaffney and Stallworth.

But then it's not my ass on the line and I get balancing the future with the here-and-now in today's 'what have you done for me lately' NFL.

Hail.

And I think you nailed it there. I also think that was the motivation in bringing in McNabb. Shannahan wagered that he could get production there and he missed. So the balanced approach is two fold, you build and you attempt to compete at the same time. I like Gaffney and having a number two vet to compliment Moss, however I do disagree with suiting up Stallworth over Austin, Paul or Hankerson at the detriment of thier development and the upside they all offer. I think two of those three will be the future two to three years down the road.

[Burgold]

The thing I argued though is that even if you are rebuilding you want to have a good corp of vets for the youngsters to model themselves after. That's why you wanted to get rid of the Haynesworths, McNabbs, and Portis' It's why you want a guy like Gafney to mentor the pups. Moss has not been a great mentor. Though a very fine player, he's another guy who wants to spend the entire offseason in Florida and has been known to job routes and disappear for games at a time.

You need someone to set the tenor, but even more you need to have positive experiences so they can all grow together... the nice thing about the past offseason is we seemed to hit on all the levels. We drafted well, we got some good free agents, and we traded well. Who'd a thunk it?

[Warhead36]

Jarmon has been waived and Holiday has 1 tackle as a backup DE through 2 games.

We won these trades going away. Feels great to have a real GM.

[ncr2h]

Jarmon has been waived and Holiday has 1 tackle as a backup DE through 2 games.

We won these trades going away. Feels great to have a real GM.

We traded a 5th and Holliday for Hightower. So think of it like we traded a Roy Helu type player + Holliday for Hightower. I think it was a pretty even trade. The Gaffney one, IMO, was definitely a steal (assuming Shannahan moves him down our depth chart in a year or 2).

[Warhead36]

We traded a 5th and Holliday for Hightower. So think of it like we traded a Roy Helu type player + Holliday for Hightower. I think it was a pretty even trade. The Gaffney one, IMO, was definitely a steal (assuming Shannahan moves him down our depth chart in a year or 2).

Holiday was a throw in. He is worth zero. It was basically a 5th for Hightower. 5th round picks are usually quality backups/spot starters. Hightower is a quality starter, so we got better value here. That trade was an absolute win for us.

[d10]

We traded a 5th and Holliday for Hightower. So think of it like we traded a Roy Helu type player + Holliday for Hightower.

Helu was a 4th round pick and he's outplaying his draft position. If that's how you look at it I'm glad we didn't trade a 7th, we'd be giving up an Ahmad Bradshaw/Marques Colston type player.

[kubstix]

Gaffney has been a huge asset to this WR corps. I feel very comfortable with Moss/Armstrong/Gaffney/Davis. No legit number 1, but very solid WR corps as a whole. NE can tell you this works just fine.

[SWFLSkins]

We traded a 5th and Holliday for Hightower. So think of it like we traded a Roy Helu type player + Holliday for Hightower. I think it was a pretty even trade. The Gaffney one, IMO, was definitely a steal (assuming Shannahan moves him down our depth chart in a year or 2).

Holiday was a throw in. He is worth zero. It was basically a 5th for Hightower. 5th round picks are usually quality backups/spot starters. Hightower is a quality starter, so we got better value here. That trade was an absolute win for us.

If the Redskins can consistently get a "Helu" type player in the 4th round, a Nield, a Jenkins in later rounds this team is going to be a machine for the next five years.

---------- Post added September-25th-2011 at 12:48 PM ----------

Helu was a 4th round pick and he's outplaying his draft position. If that's how you look at it I'm glad we didn't trade a 7th, we'd be giving up an Ahmad Bradshaw/Marques Colston type player.

hahhaaa.

[TSO]

I'm shocked to see people still arguing for Jarmon. I'm even more shocked their arguments revolve around his potential and youth. How many times does it need to be reiterated that no matter how much potential Jarmon has, he obviously was not a 3-4 DE nor a 3-4 OLB. He was not productive here in this defense and would've most likely been cut, so the fact that we sent him to a 4-3 team for a legitimate no. 2 WR can not be argued as anything except an amazing trade.

And, yes, he would've been cut if you don't think so. The Broncos screwed him over by putting him at DT (due to their injuries there) which isn't the right position for him, but a DT in the 4-3 is a lot like a DE in a 3-4, and is further proof he wouldn't have cut it here.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I'm shocked to see people still arguing for Jarmon. I'm even more shocked .....

I live to shock you ts.

It's at the top of the TDBC, page one, article one, subsection one.

" ..... Furthermore, all true followers of the Tank Desiring ****s Code shall endeavour to shock the poster known as 'thesubmittedone' hence forth once they take the pledge in an attempt to confuse and bemuse him to the point he's so confuddled he won't know up from down; at which point it is your duty to subliminally bring him over to the dark side of the divide."

Hail.

[SWFLSkins]

I live to shock you ts.

It's at the top of the TDBC, page one, article one, subsection one.

" ..... Furthermore, all true followers of the Tank Desiring ****s Code shall endeavour to shock the poster known as 'thesubmittedone' hence forth once they take the pledge in an attempt to confuse and bemuse him to the point he's so confuddled he won't know up from down; at which point it is your duty to subliminally bring him over to the dark side of the divide."

Hail.

Man GHH the code is a silent one and not meant to be broken, turn in your TDB card. The brotherhood is saddened and has voted accordingly.

[TSO]

I live to shock you ts.

It's at the top of the TDBC, page one, article one, subsection one.

" ..... Furthermore, all true followers of the Tank Desiring ****s Code shall endeavour to shock the poster known as 'thesubmittedone' hence forth once they take the pledge in an attempt to confuse and bemuse him to the point he's so confuddled he won't know up from down; at which point it is your duty to subliminally bring him over to the dark side of the divide."

Hail.

Well, in that case, it's ok. You're only following code.

[emor09]

finally on the winning side of Shanahan's genius

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Man GHH the code is a silent one and not meant to be broken, turn in your TDB card. The brotherhood is saddened and has voted accordingly.

In my best Homer J. voice ...... DOH!

*Hangs head, and shuffles out shammed muttering unrepeatable things about the tricky poster they call ts. And not posting whilst drinking.

Hail.

[TSO]

In my best Homer J. voice ...... DOH!

*Hangs head, and shuffles out shammed muttering unrepeatable things about the tricky poster they call ts. And not posting whilst drinking.

Hail.

My intention all along was to destroy the brotherhood. Phase 1 has been completed, GHH removed.

Mwa ha. Mwa ha. Mwa hahahahahaha!

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

My intention all along was to destroy the brotherhood. Phase 1 has been completed, GHH removed.

Mwa ha. Mwa ha. Mwa hahahahahaha!

Wise man say be wary of break away renegade rebels working under their own remit. :cool:

Hail.

[ncr2h]

Holiday was a throw in. He is worth zero. It was basically a 5th for Hightower. 5th round picks are usually quality backups/spot starters. Hightower is a quality starter, so we got better value here. That trade was an absolute win for us.

Tim Hightower hasn't shown himself to be anything more than a backup/spot starter, as of yet. He has 45 carries yet has only produced 168 yards. That's not exactly tearing it up. Arizona isn't missing him - Beanie Wells looks like he's got some real potential out there. Hightower is also taking carries away from Helu, who so far looks like he's going to be excellent. So no, I don't think we hosed Arizona on that deal, in retrospect. We gave a 5th and a backup DL for 1 year of starting for an RB who so far hasn't shown much in a Redskins uniform, outside of preseason which we were warned about by Arizona fans when the trade happened.

In summary - Arizona, in their mind, gave up nothing. Hightower was taking carries away from Wells, who looks to be the better back at this point. In exchange for nothing, they got a 5th rounder and a solid vet presence on the DL. Alternatively, we now have 1 year of Hightower in exchange for a Roy Helu/Dejon Gomes type talent. Hightower hasn't done much yet with his opportunities, while 4th rounder Roy Helu has. So I think it was an even trade, or possibly even a trade where Arizona got one over on us.

The Gaffney trade was unquestionably a win. In retrospect, it looks like Jarmon didn't have much talent.

[TSO]

Tim Hightower hasn't shown himself to be anything more than a backup/spot starter, as of yet. He has 45 carries yet has only produced 168 yards. That's not exactly tearing it up. Arizona isn't missing him - Beanie Wells looks like he's got some real potential out there. Hightower is also taking carries away from Helu, who so far looks like he's going to be excellent. So no, I don't think we hosed Arizona on that deal, in retrospect. We gave a 5th and a backup DL for 1 year of starting for an RB who so far hasn't shown much in a Redskins uniform, outside of preseason which we were warned about by Arizona fans when the trade happened.

In summary - Arizona, in their mind, gave up nothing. Hightower was taking carries away from Wells, who looks to be the better back at this point. In exchange for nothing, they got a 5th rounder and a solid vet presence on the DL. Alternatively, we now have 1 year of Hightower in exchange for a Roy Helu/Dejon Gomes type talent. Hightower hasn't done much yet with his opportunities, while 4th rounder Roy Helu has. So I think it was an even trade, or possibly even a trade where Arizona got one over on us.

The Gaffney trade was unquestionably a win. In retrospect, it looks like Jarmon didn't have much talent.

If all you're looking at is Hightower's yards, you're being mislead by stats as so many have before you. Stats can lie. Hightower has been a solid, down-hill runner for us and his game against the Giants who stacked the line is affecting his stats. He's great at pass-blocking and he's a better every down back than Helu now since he can catch the ball out of the backfield better as well. That's not saying Helu won't become the better back over time, but to claim Hightower is nothing but a back up is ridiculous at this point.

[ncr2h]

If all you're looking at is Hightower's yards, your being mislead by stats as so many have before you. Stats can lie. Hightower has been a solid, down-hill runner for us and his game against the Giants who stacked the line is affecting his stats. He's great at pass-blocking and he's a better every down back than Helu now since he can catch the ball out of the backfield better as well. That's not saying Helu won't become the better back over time, but to claim Hightower is nothing but a back up is ridiculous at this point.

Helu has 3 catches for 38 yards, Hightower has 4 catches for 35 yards. Helu looks like he's a better receiver, so far. Helu also looks like he's a better runner, so far. We can bring any number of backs in here to put up the 3.7 ypc that Hightower has put up so far. Helu is up over 7 ypc. He has outplayed Hightower. In summary, it looks (so far) like we traded a 5th rounder and a backup DE for a backup runningback whom we are instead trying to use as a starter. Check footballoutsiders' rankings for RBs - Helu leads all RBs with fewer than 15 carries. According to their metric (DYAR), he has done more with his 13 carries than Hightower has done with his 45 carries.

And you are not even taking into account that to WIN a trade, the other team has to lose. That looks like it didn't happen. Hightower is no longer taking playing time away from Beanie Wells, who looks like a better back at this point. And Hightower only had 1 year left on his deal, so they would probably have not resigned him next season anyway.

Look, I like what our FO has done so far. But we haven't won every single trade. That's ridiculous. We did a good job moving Haynesworth for a pick. We did a good job salvaging some value for Mcnabb. The Gaffney trade was a definite win. But Hightower, so far, does not look like a win.