2010-2011 NBA Playoffs Thread Pt.2

[I_Bleed_B&G]

Its all in the eyes of the beholder. I understand the dislike of Lebron, but i the amount of venom is getting a bit tired and old, IMO. Personally i thought LBJ was a clown for the whole "Decision" thing. But the man has been flat ballin'. Behind Dirk, I have LBJ as a really close 2nd as the playoff MVP.

I think I would put LBJ a smudge ahead of Dirk as playoff MVP as it stands now because of his efforts on both sides of the ball

[Sticksboi05]

Kareem played for a decade after they drafted Magic. He made All Star teams into his 40s. He wasn't near the end. He was a freak.

It was Kaeem's team when Magic was drafted. Bill Simmons says it was around '85/'86 when Magic really took the team over as his own and I trust him.

Shaq's game was never built for the same kind of longevity as Kareem's because he was 325 pounds.

Definitely true. Kareem's tall, "thin" frame with that hook was built for longevity.

[DCranon21]

He certainly would not have been my top choice but he's a proven winner with the right players.

It would not surprise me at all to see Kobe Bryant relishing the fact of retiring next year since he will be in the middle of a rebuilding project.

He's not the top choice but a solid choice. Mitch K. and Jim Buss do have a plan for rebuilding. Here is a stat for everyone to check out. The Lakers have only missed the playoffs twice since sometime in the 70s(1993-94 season and 2004-05 season). A major rebuild in LA only happened once, and that's when the last of Showtime was still in LA(Worthy retired in '93).

[Sticksboi05]

steve - Game 6 performance aside, who should've won 1980 Finals MVP?

[Going Commando]

That's where you and I have completely different philosophies on a successful career in a team sport....MVPs mean nothing if you don't have any championships. I'll take Pippen's 6 championship rings over LeBrons two MVPs any day of the week.

Like it or not, LeBron's rings will come. But even still, we're talking about the quality of individual pieces to make a championship whole and LeBron is a far better piece than Pippen would be. If you're talking about role players, there are better ones out there than Pippen. LeBron for instance. He'd be able to do every single thing Pippen could do except he'd do it better. It's really not even close between them.

People forget Pippen was a huge pain in the ass and diva too. How about his little spat with Phil Jackson over the Tony Kukoc shot where he quit on the team?

Jordan was a difficult son of a ***** too that everyone probably hated playing with. If you're talking about meshing personalities then I don't think I'd choose him because very few guys could play with him. Kobe is probably easier to get along with than MJ was. Plus there's the whole degenerate gambling and retiring to go play baseball thing.

Malone never won anything...he would fold in crunch time. If I wanted a PF who has never won anything...I'd take Chuck over Malone...neither of them defended particularly well...Duncan is by far better than them both. I'll take a prime KG over Malone any day of the week as well.

KG never won anything either until he teamed with Pierce and Allen. Is his one ring as a second or third banana worth more than Malone's 18 seasons of freakish longevity and production plus two finals trips as the top weapon on his team in one of the most competitive eras of basketball ever?

Malone is far more underrated around here than Pippen is and he's the frickin' number two scorer all time and greatest pick and roll outlet the game has ever seen.

Malone was also a better defender than you give him credit for. He used to bust heads on both ends of the court.

---------- Post added May-25th-2011 at 11:24 AM ----------

I think I would put LBJ a smudge ahead of Dirk as playoff MVP as it stands now because of his efforts on both sides of the ball

I wouldn't. What Dirk is doing right now is the stuff of legends. I'll remember Dirk's performances in this playoffs long after I've forgotten everything LeBron has done so far. What's LeBron's signature moment? Dirk is responsible for one of the greatest comebacks in playoff history. He's setting records right now for his inability to miss.

There are nights when LeBron has been outplayed by Chris Bosh. Plus running through Philly, Boston, and Chicago isn't nearly as impressive as Portland, L.A., and OKC IMO.

Dirk is by far the biggest draw in the playoffs for me right now.

---------- Post added May-25th-2011 at 11:28 AM ----------

steve - Game 6 performance aside, who should've won 1980 Finals MVP?

No clue, I've never seen any of the games from that series.

On a side note, what a coup for the NBA that they've got all of us fans reflecting on the legacy of it's all time greats.

I haven't really thought or cared about the legacy of these players in years. Maybe enough time has passed for us to evaluate the Dream Teamers a bit more objectively? Maybe there are some truly great players in today's game that can hold their own in comparisons? It's a really good time for the league, I can't believe they're about to enter a lockout.

For instance I couldn't care less about reflecting on the history of the NFL and its great players right now. I'm not sitting around trying to come up with the All Time team for them. I don't really care how Peyton Manning or Tom Brady stack up in the history of the game.

[Heisenberg]

stevemcqueen - please, go back and look at those rosters in Minnesota while Garnett was there. I'll say it for the 1,000th time - the Wolves getting caught paying Joe Smith under the table basically destroyed any chance Garnett had at winning anything in Minnesota. You give Garnett a John Stockton and I'm very confident he would have probably won multiple championships in Minnesota.

It's just not a fair comparison.

[Sticksboi05]

Thank you ESPN 1st and 10 for shutting down the absolutely ridiculous Dirk/Bird comparisons.

[Going Commando]

stevemcqueen - please, go back and look at those rosters in Minnesota while Garnett was there. I'll say it for the 1,000th time - the Wolves getting caught paying Joe Smith under the table basically destroyed any chance Garnett had at winning anything in Minnesota. You give Garnett a John Stockton and I'm very confident he would have probably won multiple championships in Minnesota.

It's just not a fair comparison.

It's perfectly fair because we're talking about all time greats. Citing Garnett's winning as a reason he's better than Malone is ridiculous.

Let's be real here. If you're given the choice today between drafting KG or Malone, knowing what each will accomplish individually, you're a fool to take KG. Malone at 34 was better than KG at 24 and we know this because Malone was a first team NBA selection and was winning MVPs.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I don't consider Stockton and Malone separately, because I don't think either was all that spectacular individually. They were just really really really really really exceptional at pick and roll basketball and did it for a million years.

If you told me tomorrow to pick a power forward from an all-time list, I would almost certainly choose Duncan, Barkley, McHale, and Garnett before Malone.

There just wasn't one thing that Malone did all that exceptional by himself.

And if you told me I could draft any point guard, I don't think Stockton makes my top ten.

Now, if you told me I could draft any teammates, they might be the number one pick.

---------- Post added May-25th-2011 at 10:54 AM ----------

Malone at 34 was better than KG at 24 and we know this because Malone was a first team NBA selection and was winning MVPs.

Yes. But he should not have been. Karl Malone's career is an example of that happens if you just stick around long enough. He got to a very good level...and then just stayed there for the next 50 years.

For the record, Dirk is not an example of that. Dirk is better right now than he has ever been, and the last month of basketball by Dirk has been one of the best month's of basketball in human history. He is peaking.

Karl Malone never peaked.

[Sticksboi05]

ESPN did a thing on the Top 10 PG's of all-time.

They ranked them:

Magic

Isiah

The Big O

Stockton

Cousy

Frazier

Kidd

Tiny

Nash

Payton

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

ESPN did a thing on the Top 10 PG's of all-time.

They ranked them:

Magic

Isiah

The Big O

Stockton

Cousy

Frazier

Kidd

Tiny

Nash

Payton

Stockton is always going to make these lists because of the numbers he racked up.

But go watch a game between the Sonics and Jazz in the early to mid 90s. Stockton couldn't guard Gary Payton and he couldn't get away from Gary Payton. Other than that, Stockton was better, I guess.

In comparing him to Kidd, I use this test: If you put Stockton at his absolute peak on those Nets' teams that Kidd got to the Finals, what happens?

[Heisenberg]

It's perfectly fair because we're talking about all time greats. Citing Garnett's winning as a reason he's better than Malone is ridiculous.

Let's be real here. If you're given the choice today between drafting KG or Malone, knowing what each will accomplish individually, you're a fool to take KG. Malone at 34 was better than KG at 24 and we know this because Malone was a first team NBA selection and was winning MVPs.

I wouldn't pick Garnett because he won a title.

I'd pick Garnett because he's a better player than Malone was.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I wouldn't pick Garnett because he won a title.

I'd pick Garnett because he's a better player than Malone was.

I don't care about titles. It's a dumb way to look at things.

I always just ask, if you gave me player x, how are they going to help me win?

If you gave me Karl Malone, what are the ways he is going help me win? He's great at the pick and roll, but I need a great pick and roll point guard. If my point guard is Derek Fisher, that doesn't help me. He's a decent defender. He runs the floor well. He will work hard on the glass.

If you give me Garnett, I know right off the bat, that I am going to have the best defensive player in the league and that if I have any idea what I'm doing, I'm going to have a top five defensive team. I know I have a relentless rebounder and a forward who is automatic from 18 feet in.

I would rather have KG.

And I would rather have Duncan than both, because I would always prefer the best offensive player over the best defensive player - though Duncan was pretty damn good on D. Plus, Duncan seems a hell of a lot easier to deal with than KG in a locker room.

[Sticksboi05]

Duncan's 8x All-NBA Defensive 1st Team.

[megared]

I wouldn't pick Garnett because he won a title.

I'd pick Garnett because he's a better player than Malone was.

It just isn't as cut and dry as being the 'better' player.

Scoring: Malone >>>>> KG

Shooting: Malone >>>>> KG

Durability: Malone >>>>> KG

Rebounding: Wash

Defense: KG >>>>> Malone

Of course Malone benefited from Stockton...but you can't punish him all-time for that. Even if Garnett had a Stockton caliber PG, with his current decline, I couldn't see him scoring 50 in a playoff game two seasons from now, at age 36. We haven't seen him have a run off 3 MVP-worthy seasons spanning his early to mid thirties.

They're two different players. Malone had no qualms going in the post, or cutting to the basket. KG fell in love with midrange jumpers...which is why his career FG % is less than 50%. Who knows if KG would've been as good of a player with Stockton, considering those facts?

[mcsluggo]

Just replied same answer to this lame comment too

congratulatory self congratulations on a very tired, oft repeated and overstated "zinger" response to the comment (essentially) "Lebron is playing well"

[Going Commando]

Stockton is always going to make these lists because of the numbers he racked up.

But go watch a game between the Sonics and Jazz in the early to mid 90s. Stockton couldn't guard Gary Payton and he couldn't get away from Gary Payton. Other than that' date=' Stockton was better, I guess.

In comparing him to Kidd, I use this test: If you put Stockton at his absolute peak on those Nets' teams that Kidd got to the Finals, what happens?[/quote']

I'll admit that Malone was my second favorite player growing up but I still think you're undervaluing him. Malone's skill set is tailor made for this NBA. This pick and roll is the only automatic form of offense left where you're guaranteed a 25+ point scorer from your outlet.

Malone was a better defender than people gave him credit for too, he made some All NBA defensive teams. Malone was also a specimen that no one could handle physically and that'd still be the case today. Malone knocked David Robinson out and Robinson was built like Superman. Malone was as much a specimen as Dwight Howard is now.

And finally, Malone's longevity in and of itself makes him special. He gives you an enormous championship window because your PF is an All Star for nearly two decades.

I can admit Stockton's flaws though. I think Payton gets underrated because he was a journeyman. Payton was a marksman and the best defensive PG of the era. He was better than Stockton.

If you're talking teammates, Stockton and Malone would be a fantastic foundation to build on for today's game specifically because of the pick and roll. I'd rather have Chris Paul and Malone though if I could make that happen.

Payton and Kemp might actually be even better.

[C26 Run]

Derrick Rose cost us last nights game. Seven TOs will kill any team in the playoffs. We are in desperate need of a 2 guard if we are to really put up a challenge against the Heat.

:helmet:

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I'll admit that Malone was my second favorite player growing up but I still think you're undervaluing him. Malone's skill set is tailor made for this NBA. This pick and roll is the only automatic form of offense left where you're guaranteed a 25+ point scorer from your outlet.

I think he is really good. But I just think he falls into that Patrick Ewing level of "Greatness" where he played at a consistent level for a long time with one or two very good skills, but nothing elite. And, yes, he was a physical specimen.

I can admit Stockton's flaws though. I think Payton gets underrated because he was a journeyman. Payton was a marksman and the best defensive PG of the era. He was better than Stockton.

Payton gets under-rated because he was a ********. But I have to guess that at pretty much any point in the 90s, 3/4 of the GMs would have selected him over Stockton in an expansion draft.

---------- Post added May-25th-2011 at 12:05 PM ----------

Derrick Rose cost us last nights game. Seven TOs will kill any team in the playoffs. We are in desperate need of a 2 guard if we are to really put up a challenge against the Heat.

:helmet:

My wife asked this last night.

"That Korver guy can't play defense and I've never seen him make a shot. Why is he playing?"

[CrypticVillain]

ESPN did a thing on the Top 10 PG's of all-time.

They ranked them:

Magic

Isiah

The Big O

Stockton

Cousy

Frazier

Kidd

Tiny

Nash

Payton

If Nash could play a little bit of defense, I would jump him all the way to fourth. I would swap Kidd and Fraizer.

---------- Post added May-25th-2011 at 01:06 PM ----------

My wife asked this last night.

"That Korver guy can't play defense and I've never seen him make a shot. Why is he playing?"

HIYO!!!!

[mcsluggo]

you need to go buy the book of basketball by Bill Simmons and study "the secret" chapter...then come talk to us about basketball....you can't look at stats to measure what Pippen brought to the Bull's championship teams. No one is saying Pippen was a top flight scorer or passer...but he did everything well, was the best defender of his era and was the perfect compliment to Jordan.

no he hasn't...if he was a closer (like Dwade or Jordan) he'd have a couple championships by now. The guy has a history of choking/giving up (last year) when it matters most for his team. He has lacked the killer instinct of a champion....he seems to have found that over the offseason this year.

that was the first round of the playoffs...and two of them shouldn't have counted because he obviously walked....he couldn't close out teams later in the playoffs...granted he had a lousy supporting caste....but he'll always be labeled as the guy who couldn't be "the guy" and win a championship without Dwade.

the difference is these guys (LBJ, Dwade, Bosh) chose each other through free agency.......KG and Ray Allen were chosen by the celtics via trade.

and that will define LBJ's legacy...that he could never do it himself....fair or not...that's the way it is.

i am sorry.... but this post is just PURE whiney, moist-panties. Jeez, get a grip.

You were correct inthe first part, though. Pippin is way under appreciated---- and Jordan was never able to COME CLOSE to winning it all without him. If Miami wins it all this year, then I will have to say that at this point in their respective careers, Lebron tops both Kobe and Jordan. He will have shown that he can do MORE without a supporting cast (finals, with NOBODY else on his team) and he can also win it all with an incomplete supporting cast (they will be much better next year with a few quality role players)

Can you imagine Lebron paired up with a circa 2000 Shaq??? it would be simply unfair.

[[[edit---- of course, Kobe and Jordan both kept progressing, and had dominant careers in their 30s, as well... so Lebron would still have miles to go before topping out their overall CAREERS ]]]]

the probem is that we are ALL going to start getting bored with a miami juggernaught, unless something happens to break-em-up. Here's hoping that Wade starts making googly-eyes at Lebron's mom this offseason....

[C26 Run]

My wife asked this last night.

"That Korver guy can't play defense and I've never seen him make a shot. Why is he playing?"

We're all asking the same question

:helmet:

[royallypwned]

I never want that city to win anything! First and foremost, screw the cowboys, screw the mavericks, rangers and the dallas stars. They are not even worthy of capital letters

Well screw you too! :pfft:

The rivalry with the Cowboys was manufactured in spite of geography. The people most important for the rivalry are all gone and you can see the intensity of it fading even as we speak. Current Dallas fans hate Philly more than they hate us.

Not me, but I guess I'm old school. I still hate the Skins the most of an NFL team. In terms of NFC East hate, it goes in this order for me: Skins, Eagles, Giants.

But in terms of the fans, it easily goes: Eagles, Giants, Skins.

But my hate for any of those teams doesn't even compare to my hate for the cHeat.

[Gator Bait]

Like it or not, LeBron's rings will come.

that is your opinion...you may end up being correct, you may end up being wrong...but Pippen-Jordan won 6 rings together and would have had 8 if Jordan didn't go on his baseball vacation...****...they would have had 9 or 10 if MJ didn't retire (the first time). I'm not splitting up a proven winner to bring in a loser with no heart like LeBron James.

But even still, we're talking about the quality of individual pieces to make a championship whole and LeBron is a far better piece than Pippen would be

When LeBron James puts his seventh ring on his finger...I'll agree with you...until then you have no argument here.

. If you're talking about role players, there are better ones out there than Pippen. LeBron for instance. He'd be able to do every single thing Pippen could do except he'd do it better. It's really not even close between them.

LeBron isn't a role player...he is a super star.....Jordan and LeBron would not have been able to coexist on the same team...they are too close in skill level and it would end up driving one of them crazy that the team wasn't their own alone....would probably be egotistical Jordan who would start the problem. I'd rather have Scottie who knows his place and still produces.

People forget Pippen was a huge pain in the ass and diva too. How about his little spat with Phil Jackson over the Tony Kukoc shot where he quit on the team?

easy to forget when you win 6 championships

Jordan was a difficult son of a ***** too that everyone probably hated playing with. If you're talking about meshing personalities then I don't think I'd choose him because very few guys could play with him.

he is the greatest player ever to play the game...you find guys that can play with him...and that is who you go with. That is why you roll with Pippen at the 3 and not LeBron. That is why you have ultimate team player Bill Russell at the 5, unselfish Jason kidd at the point, and all KG cares about is calling the opponents MFs and dominating on defense.

Kobe is probably easier to get along with than MJ was. Plus there's the whole degenerate gambling and retiring to go play baseball thing.

they are about on the same level of difficult in my opinion...Kobe constantly throws teammates under the bus.

KG never won anything either until he teamed with Pierce and Allen. Is his one ring as a second or third banana worth more than Malone's 18 seasons of freakish longevity and production plus two finals trips as the top weapon on his team in one of the most competitive eras of basketball ever?

yep..in the end...KG was a more dominate PF when considering both sides of the ball...he has the ring to prove it. KG won that championship for Boston...you could take Ray Allen or Paul Pierce out of the equation, replace them with a comparable player and the Celtics still win the championship.....there aren't too many players you could have subbed in for Garnet and still won it all.

Malone is far more underrated around here than Pippen is and he's the frickin' number two scorer all time and greatest pick and roll outlet the game has ever seen.

thanks to a hall of fame point guard....and Malone's defense was mediocre at best..not even close to KG on the defensive side of the ball....yet KG is right up there with Malone in scoring and rebounding

I wouldn't. What Dirk is doing right now is the stuff of legends. I'll remember Dirk's performances in this playoffs long after I've forgotten everything LeBron has done so far. What's LeBron's signature moment? Dirk is responsible for one of the greatest comebacks in playoff history. He's setting records right now for his inability to miss.

LeBron wins games on the defensive side of the ball....Dirk doesn't

There are nights when LeBron has been outplayed by Chris Bosh.

maybe in scoring...but not on defense.....STEVE...everything you have said just proves that you are a box score watcher....you don't watch the games...and if you do...you don't understand the game well enough. DEFENSE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS....always has and always will!

Plus running through Philly, Boston, and Chicago isn't nearly as impressive as Portland, L.A., and OKC IMO.

Chicago was #1 overall seed in the whole playoffs and Boston was #3 in the east.....LA- 2, OKC-4.....portland is a bit more impressive than Philly...but overall I don't think either road was necessarily rougher

Dirk is by far the biggest draw in the playoffs for me right now

offensively you are correct...I'm actually more impressed with LeBrons overall game.....closing out teams in the 4th, tenacious defense that is baffling the #1 overall seed....

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

the probem is that we are ALL going to start getting bored with a miami juggernaught, unless something happens to break-em-up. Here's hoping that Wade starts making googly-eyes at Lebron's mom this offseason....

The thing that has amazed me is Wade's health this year. The one factor that no one really considered is how having Lebron might preserve his career. He's not having to single-handidly pull the Heat into the playoffs each year. And he can take a quarter off here and there and not hurt his team. I've always thought the heat had a small window because Wade is so fragile, but now I'm wondering if that is true.

And the scary thing is this: The Heat should get better. If they win this year, they might three or fourpeat. A Chris Bosh with a championship ring and a few 30 point games in the ECF is a Chris Bosh who should no longer have to listen to the voices saying, "You don't belong."

And the rest of the team is only going to get better around them. I think they understand how that team is going to work now. And it involves players like Haslem and Anthony. God forbid they find players better than Haslem and Anthony to fill those roles.

This reminds me of that first Shaq-Kobe title team. That team took forever to get going, but once it found the formula, it was over....