reason.com: No Military Immunity

[ACW]

http://reason.com/archives/2011/02/02/no-military-immunity/print

Vicky Hartzler, a freshman representative from Missouri, says one of her top priorities is "reining in runaway spending." Yet she exempts one-fifth of the federal budget and more than half of discretionary spending from scrutiny.

"Now is not the time to talk about defense cuts while we are engaged in two theaters with men and women in harm's way," Hartzler recently told The New York Times. For Hartzler and too many of her fellow Republicans, it's never time to talk about defense cuts. This irrational attitude, the flip side of automatic progressive resistance to reductions in social spending, must be disavowed by anyone who is serious about dealing with the nation's fiscal crisis.

There is a grain of truth at the heart of the sense that defense spending is special. Unlike so much of what the federal government does, maintaining an army and navy is explicitly authorized by the Constitution, and with good reason: Providing for the common defense is a central function of government.

But that does not mean anything labeled "defense" should get a free pass. Consider the two wars Hartzler mentioned, which so far have cost something like $1.3 trillion, not to mention thousands of lives. Is forcibly replacing dictatorships with liberal democracies a sensible, cost-effective way to protect Americans from foreign invaders? If not, Hartzler is citing an egregious waste of money and lives in the name of defense as a reason not to cut military spending.

:yes:

[AsburySkinsFan]

Bring them home and then let's get real about doing something about the deficit.

[Rocky21]

Can I get an Amen?

[Destino]

US defense budget is insane. There is no nation that is even comparable to what we spend. If people are serious about the US money crisis this has to cross into foriegn policy and defense. We need to remove ourselves as the world police for a while and shrink that budget. We can't ignore trillion dollar wars the largest segment of the budget when it comes time to tighten the belt.

[Mad Mike]

Once again the libertarian over-reaction to every issue comes into play. Al Qaeda is working on nukes. By all means, lets stop prosecuting the war on them and bring our boys home. I'm sure they wouldn't use that opportunity to re-group and bring the fight back to us. After all, that would be much cheaper than a nuke going off in New York City or Washington DC. :doh:

I honestly believe Libertarians will be the death of this country.

[Fergasun]

US defense budget is insane. There is no nation that is even comparable to what we spend. If people are serious about the US money crisis this has to cross into foriegn policy and defense. We need to remove ourselves as the world police for a while and shrink that budget. We can't ignore trillion dollar wars the largest segment of the budget when it comes time to tighten the belt.

The world needs a policeman. Otherwise groups like the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas will takeover via "democracy", and it'll be worse for American interests. Those groups are dangerous to America and our national interests.

[TradeTheBeal!]

JFK tried to cut the "military mafia" budget. Didn't quite work out for him.

[nonniey]

US defense budget is insane. There is no nation that is even comparable to what we spend. If people are serious about the US money crisis this has to cross into foriegn policy and defense. We need to remove ourselves as the world police for a while and shrink that budget. We can't ignore trillion dollar wars the largest segment of the budget when it comes time to tighten the belt.

OK granted that the defense is an area that can be cut. But I do like to point out it is one of the areas that the Government is actually supposed to be spending money on and as a percentage of the GDP it is not historically out of line, even with the wars. Additionally, defense spending unlike most federal programs has actually been cut from time to time. Bottomline, defense spending is not the culprit in our huge deficits, that lays on the doorstep of a myriad of programs that technically aren't the purview of Government.

[ACW]

Once again the libertarian over-reaction to every issue comes into play. Al Qaeda is working on nukes. By all means, lets stop prosecuting the war on them and bring our boys home. I'm sure they wouldn't use that opportunity to re-group and bring the fight back to us. After all, that would be much cheaper than a nuke going off in New York City or Washington DC. :doh:

I honestly believe Libertarians will be the death of this country.

First off, it's SMALL-l unless you mean the party.

Second, so you believe NOTHING in the budget can be cut? That's there's no waste or fraud? And you call US naive?

[Mad Mike]

JFK tried to cut the "military mafia" budget. Didn't quite work out for him.

You believe every freakin' conspiracy theory don't you. :insane:

[Hubbs]

Once again the libertarian over-reaction to every issue comes into play. Al Qaeda is working on nukes. By all means, lets stop prosecuting the war on them and bring our boys home. I'm sure they wouldn't use that opportunity to re-group and bring the fight back to us. After all, that would be much cheaper than a nuke going off in New York City or Washington DC. :doh:

I honestly believe Libertarians will be the death of this country.

You're nothing if not reliable, Mike.

"Every single cent of the defense budget shouldn't be off limits? Anarchy! Lawlessness! Terrorists running amok!"

[Mad Mike]

First off, it's SMALL-l unless you mean the party.

Second, so you believe NOTHING in the budget can be cut? That's there's no waste or fraud? And you call US naive?

Where have I EVER. EVER, said nothing can or should be cut? When have I ever said there is no waste or fraud?

Seriously? That's your response? To lie and drum up a red herring? And you expect to be taken seriously with such arguments?

But hey, thanks for demonstrating the standard bull **** response of Libertarians everywhere.

And NO. I will NOT use the lower L. You support Libertarians who support the party platform. That makes you a Libertarian with a big giant capitol L.

---------- Post added February-2nd-2011 at 07:33 PM ----------

You're nothing if not reliable, Mike.

"Every single cent of the defense budget shouldn't be off limits? Anarchy! Lawlessness! Terrorists running amok!"

Like I said. The standard bull**** response. :doh:

[SkinsHokieFan]

Simple procurement reform would easily shave 100-200 billion off the military budget

The military budget no longer defends or makes the people of America safe. It is simply corporate welfare for Northrup Grumman, Lockheed Martin, CSC, SAIC, etc etc.

When the DoD budget no longer pays contractors 3 times the amount they pay a person to do the job, we'll see the military budget go down without impacting personell or weapons 1 bit

[Hubbs]

Like I said. The standard bull**** response. :doh:

Really? The standard bull**** response is to mock your suggestion that libertarians want a nuke to go off in Washington, DC? Say, I can think of a great way to make sure you never get that response again....

[Forehead]

First off, it's SMALL-l unless you mean the party.

Second, so you believe NOTHING in the budget can be cut? That's there's no waste or fraud? And you call US naive?

A grammar policeman should know better than to have a sentence like "That's there's no waste or fraud" in the middle of a post callling out someone else for a mistake.

[youngestson]

Defense would almost seem the only place where large cuts can be made which will have very little impact on the economy or quality of life. The problem is, it's also one of the most lucrative fields, the research, development, and supply that is, presently located in the U.S.

The $ spent of lobbying is out of sight and all those small bases around the country in every congressional district, and all the defense contractors in every district........ It's almost reached the point where the country has to be in a constant state of war to justify the expense and size of the military, but can't get away from it because another whole sector of what industry we have left would vanish overnight.

[TradeTheBeal!]

You believe every freakin' conspiracy theory don't you. :insane:

No, but you definitiely buy all the garbage you hear on the TV.

---------- Post added February-2nd-2011 at 03:27 PM ----------

Defense would almost seem the only place where large cuts can be made which will have very little impact on the economy or quality of life. The problem is, it's also one of the most lucrative fields, the research, development, and supply that is, presently located in the U.S.

The $ spent of lobbying is out of sight and all those small bases around the country in every congressional district, and all the defense contractors in every district........ It's almost reached the point where the country has to be in a constant state of war to justify the expense and size of the military, but can't get away from it because another whole sector of what industry we have left would vanish overnight.

Don't forget all the "foreign aid" which simply comes back into the defense industry via weapons purchases.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Wow two whole pages and we already have a full blown zoo monkey crap fight.

[elkabong82]

Once again the libertarian over-reaction to every issue comes into play. Al Qaeda is working on nukes. By all means, lets stop prosecuting the war on them and bring our boys home. I'm sure they wouldn't use that opportunity to re-group and bring the fight back to us. After all, that would be much cheaper than a nuke going off in New York City or Washington DC. :doh:

I honestly believe Libertarians will be the death of this country.

Calm down. Nowhere in the article did it it suggest that l defense should be cut, nor did it suggest that money for the war effort and fighting terrorism be cut. All the article said was that keeping the defense budget COMPLETELY off limits is a bad idea because there are likely some gross expenditures, fraud, wasted money, etc. as part of their budget. We're in a crisis, we should be "trimming the fat" so to speak in all facets of government spending.

Your opinion is based off an assumption that the article suggests we cut defense spending that goes directly to the war and anti-terrorism efforts and you're freaking about it and using it to bash a political group, yet your assumption is not backed by the article.

Hubbs pointed this out to you as well, and all you did was type-cast him and give a dismissive remark, eventhough in that same post you yourself said you don't think the defense budget should be completely off limits.

If you think rationally about this, there aren't likely very many people who want us to trim the fundng for our troops and fo anti-terrorism measures, but that's the belief your post I quoted is based off of, but that belief is unsubstantiated by the article. I think you may owe some people in here an apology for flying off the handle.

[Mad Mike]

Really? The standard bull**** response is to mock your suggestion that libertarians want a nuke to go off in Washington, DC? Say, I can think of a great way to make sure you never get that response again....

Really? your response is to throw more bull**** on the pile? Show me where I said "libertarians want a nuke to go off in Washington".

My comment was in response to this...

Bring them home and then let's get real about doing something about the deficit.

And my reference to Al Qaeda wanting to nuke us comes from this....

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?343850-Wikileaks-Al-Qaida-on-brink-of-using-nuclear-bomb

Al-Qaida is on the verge of producing radioactive weapons after sourcing nuclear material and recruiting rogue scientists to build "dirty" bombs, according to leaked diplomatic documents.

A leading atomic regulator has privately warned that the world stands on the brink of a "nuclear 9/11".

Security briefings suggest that jihadi groups are also close to producing "workable and efficient" biological and chemical weapons that could kill thousands if unleashed in attacks on the West.

For the reading impaired, let me clarify. For those of you who think it would be a good idea to bring all of our troops home in order to save money, I believe you are ignoring the very real threat those troops are out there fighting to combat. I never said, nor do I believe libertarians WANT a nuke to go off in America. What I believe is that libertarians RARELY, if at all, consider the possible negative ramifications of their desired actions. In this case, one of the ramifications of "bringing the troops home" would be to give Al Qaeda the breathing room they need to re-group and go on the offensive.

As has been demonstrated here by you, when confronted with those possible ramifications, libertarians usually create ridiculous red herrings such as claiming the person who raised the concern is saying "NOTHING in the budget can be cut".

[Koolblue13]

End the war, give away our bases in most of the 130 places overseas we have them and seriously reevaluate our defense contracts.

[grego]

. For those of you who think it would be a good idea to bring all of our troops home in order to save money, I believe you are ignoring the very real threat those troops are out there fighting to combat..

you are correct. internet libs love to preach how we should cut the military budget. gotta love it.

but, shf is also correct- we need reform and/or regulation.

[Teller]

Military spending probably needs to be examined, but not necessarily for cuts. Let's look at it and see how we can best combat today's global threats. Terrorism, unconventional enemy tactics (roadside bombs, etc), and go from there. If it ends up reducing the military budget, great. If not, at least we'll be better equipped to deal with emerging threats.

My guess is that spending could be reduced if we do this though.

[10fttall]

We should strengthen the military and cut the budget at the same time. Let's keep all the overseas bases, thank you very much. They actually serve an important strategic role. I'm sure we would survive without some of the trendy nonsense like Joint Forces Command. We should go back to basics. Develop a cutting edge battle force that can kick people's butts. Develop dedicated forces and better tactics to deal with the "asymetrical" threats. We shouldn't have 150,000 troops deployed for years trying to win the peace. Get some damned shrinks to win hearts and minds. Let's use the brave guys in 70 lbs of gear to train for perfection at bases in the US and be prepared to do things that actually require an army and combat.

There are plenty of wasteful contracts, fancy buildings, landscaping going on all over the military. Let's get rid of the palaces and architecturally stunning buildings on bases. This is the military for goodness sake. Build sturdy square cinderblock buildings that serve the purpose. Paint them one color, don't order $3000 desks, plush carpet, and the like. Use computers for more than a year before getting the latest and fanciest. Use (gasp) CRT monitors. I'm sure we have wasted many millions on large screen, multi screen, flat panel monitors for many places where they are absolutely no improvement over the (gasp again) 4 year old CRT's. This is the government, the military! Who are we trying to impress with all the glitz? Seriously...why the sparkling buildings, nicely manicured bushes and landscape?

The soldiers and sailors will be just fine. They were for years.

---------- Post added February-2nd-2011 at 08:54 PM ----------

We should strengthen the military and cut the budget at the same time. Let's keep all the overseas bases, thank you very much. They actually serve an important strategic role. I'm sure we would survive without some of the trendy nonsense like Joint Forces Command. We should go back to basics. Develop a cutting edge battle force that can kick people's butts. Develop dedicated forces and better tactics to deal with the "asymetrical" threats. We shouldn't have 150,000 troops deployed for years trying to win the peace. Get some damned shrinks to win hearts and minds. Let's use the brave guys in 70 lbs of gear to train for perfection at bases in the US and be prepared to do things that actually require an army and combat.

There are plenty of wasteful contracts, fancy buildings, landscaping going on all over the military. Let's get rid of the palaces and architecturally stunning buildings on bases. This is the military for goodness sake. Build sturdy square cinderblock buildings that serve the purpose. Paint them one color, don't order $3000 desks, plush carpet, and the like. Use computers for more than a year before getting the latest and fanciest. Use (gasp) CRT monitors. I'm sure we have wasted many millions on large screen, multi screen, flat panel monitors for many places where they are absolutely no improvement over the (gasp again) 4 year old CRT's. This is the government, the military! Who are we trying to impress with all the glitz? Seriously...why the sparkling buildings, nicely manicured bushes and landscape?

The soldiers and sailors will be just fine. They were for years.

[Destino]

The world needs a policeman. Otherwise groups like the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas will takeover via "democracy", and it'll be worse for American interests. Those groups are dangerous to America and our national interests.

This makes no sense. Hamas rose to power while we were playing world police. The Muslim Brotherhood is holding tremendous power in what's going on in egypt at the moment. Afghanistan didn't turn into the freedom loving paradise we envisioned and Iraq has failed to embrace secular outlooks on freedom. North Korea also became a nuclear state.

So tell me again what the benefit of continuing with he mindset that we can force the world to bend to our will on every issue is again? Keep in mind the war on terror is largely a result of this mindset from generation past.

Maybe that whole entangling alliances with none thing is right.