What if Gibbs stayed for Year 5?

[Bootleg]

The Redskins offense showed life with Todd Collins at the end of 2007 against some pretty good teams before dismantling in Seattle... The defense was... Lacking in turnovers and a pass rush, but still Top 10.

Gibbs, Saunders, and Williams come back for another year.

They have the following picks in the 2008 NFL Draft: 1, 2, 3, 3, 5, 7, 7, 7

What would've happened?

[s0crates]

I often wonder that myself. I also wonder what would have happened if Gregg Williams got the head coaching job instead of Jim Zorn. Either way I think we would be in a much better place than we are now.

It is difficult to talk in terms of what if, but the team Gibbs left behind sure seemed to be headed in the right direction. They went 6-2 in their first 8 games after he left. Then they spent two years regressing under Zorn's leadership. Now we are back in rebuilding mode.

Oh, and Gregg Williams won a Super Bowl in New Orleans while we were regressing. Snyder really screwed the pooch on that one.

[SkinsHokieFan]

It is really tough to tell

Does TC start or do they go back to JC? Or was Gibbs and company convinced that JC was not the man for the job?

Does the o-line get addressed? Do we stay at that 21 spot and pick up Sam Baker?

The following offseason, do we go after Albert?

I do agree though, that team that was left started off 6-2 and really was a result of being Joe Gibbs' team, kinda like the Cowboys were Parcells' team in 2007 even though Wade was coach

Hell, does Gibbs pick up Vick after he gets out of jail?

[hail2skins]

While Gibbs departure has been ascribed mainly to his grandson's illness and to some degree the emotional drain over the senseless Taylor murder, I've often wondered how Gibbs' own perception of the potential of the team played into his decision to depart. I think that a victory at Seattle and then going down and beating the Cowboys in Dallas might have prompted him to stay for the final year of his contract. However, that didn't happen, and I think Gibbs might have felt that getting the team to where he wanted it to be (a Superbowl contender) wasn't going to be accomplished in a year. Joe may have felt that at 67 he didn't have the energy to stay longer than that, and thus decided to let this team get on with its future. I applaud him for that.

As for the draft, despite having some good picks in Gibbs tenure (Cooley, Taylor, Landry), Vinny was still around, and we saw how badly the 2008 draft got screwed up. No guarantee that wouldn't have happened.

IMO, despite his struggles in Buffalo, Snyder made a big mistake in not hiring Williams, and his arrogance likely prevented him from landing Spags. He then probably should've stuck to his guns with Fassel.

[Sticksboi05]

I'll tell you this. No coach besides Norv Turner has taken this franchise to the playoffs since the 70's other than Gibbs.

[IONTOP]

I'll tell you this. No coach besides Norv Turner has taken this franchise to the playoffs since the 70's other than Gibbs.

Gibbs was our only coach since the 70's to take us to multiple playoffs...

[celticsalmon]

Reality Check

Our beloved Joe Gibss quit on this team. I know he stated his reasons but why then did he devote all of that free time to Nascar and the talk circuit?

He didn't even tell Joe Bugel or the rest of his coaching staff let alone his players when he quit. He could have spoken to Snyder and the HC job and it would have been handed to Williams. Like players before and after him-Joe Gibbs took the money and ran. Heck given the way Snyder worshiped him, Gibbs could have been Danny's mentor. But instead set the example for the Haynesworths of today.

I respect what he did here the first time around. And I applaud him for many of the thing she did the second time around. But he left the organization in a shambles.

No opinion here-just the facts

[RansomthePasserby]

I'll tell you this. No coach besides Norv Turner has taken this franchise to the playoffs since the 70's other than Gibbs.

I think Shotty would have had Snyder kept him.

[NoCalMike]

I'm telling you guys, Gibbs will never admit it, but, IMO....Joe Gibbs saw the writing on the wall with this team.

When Gibbs came in, he knew Ramsey sucked, so he traded for Brunell, knowing Brunell had a couple seasons left in him. He drafted Campbell, thinking at the time, Campbell was the long term answer at QB. As Campbell sat behind Brunell, trying to learn, and as Brunell wore down, due to age and the hits he took, it was finally time for Campbell to take over.

Gibbs learned pretty quick that he had made a mistake with Campbell, and while Collins was an adequate part-time backup, he knew he didn't have what it took to be a full season starter in the league. Brunell was finished as a starter, and Campbell was not good enough. Gibbs did not come to rebuild this franchise, he came in with a mission to get the team in what was it's current state, as far as he thought he could get them.

I really think 2005 could have gone much better had Brunell not basically been trying to play on one knee going into the playoffs. Brunell survived the Tampa Game, but was in no shape to lead this team in the Seattle game. Combine that with Rogers dropping an easy pick-6 that puts us up 10-0, and a post-season that could have been even better, crumbled.

The run in 2007 was similar, but I think the team was a little older, a little more beaten down, and even less prepared by the time they actually got into the playoffs.

At the end of the 2007 season, I think Gibbs realized that under Campbell, the team wasn't going to go any further then they had already gotten, and he was not about to stick around, draft another QB and wait another 3 years to hope they produce and become a good NFL QB.

[nwoganja]

Hell, does Gibbs pick up Vick after he gets out of jail?

I ask that myself everyday. Why didn't we pick up Vick? Just because of his past???

And if Gibbs stayed for Year 5... good chance is.... We probably WOULD HAVE VINNY STILL :mad::mad:

[Warhead36]

I really don't know what would have happened. It looked like our offense was finally starting to get something going, but would keeping Gibbs have meant better draft choices?(the 08 draft as it stands is one of the worst in franchise history if not the worst)

[fullnelson9999]

Reality Check

Our beloved Joe Gibss quit on this team. I know he stated his reasons but why then did he devote all of that free time to Nascar and the talk circuit?

He didn't even tell Joe Bugel or the rest of his coaching staff let alone his players when he quit. He could have spoken to Snyder and the HC job and it would have been handed to Williams. Like players before and after him-Joe Gibbs took the money and ran. Heck given the way Snyder worshiped him, Gibbs could have been Danny's mentor. But instead set the example for the Haynesworths of today.

I respect what he did here the first time around. And I applaud him for many of the thing she did the second time around. But he left the organization in a shambles.

No opinion here-just the facts

1. NASCAR is primarily based in North Carolina.

2. Talk show appearances vs. running a NFL team. Which one do you think is more difficult to do?

[Phixius]

The only mistake Gibbs made was bringing in Al Saunders. That move alone regress the teams progress from 2005. That's why Campbell didn't do well. Everything he learned in his rookie year went down the drain. The offense fell apart in the 2005 playoffs was simply because Brunell was done. Had the Redskins found a way to get to the NFC Championship that year, they weren't going to come out victorious. They ran out of gas. Campbell lack of success with Gibbs was largely due to Saunders and Gibbs not being on the same page. Collins only did well because of Saunders offense and that's why he was there in the first place.

[Warhead36]

The only mistake Gibbs made was bringing in Al Saunders. That move alone regress the teams progress from 2005. That's why Campbell didn't do well. Everything he learned in his rookie year went down the drain. The offense fell apart in the 2005 playoffs was simply because Brunell was done. Had the Redskins found a way to get to the NFC Championship that year, they weren't going to come out victorious. They ran out of gas. Campbell lack of success with Gibbs was largely due to Saunders and Gibbs not being on the same page. Collins only did well because of Saunders offense and that's why he was there in the first place.

I actually kind of agree with this. What we should have done is not hired Saunders after 05, and let Campbell compete with Brunell for the starting job. In 05 we had a 1500 yard RB in Portis, a 1000+ yard WR in Moss, and an 800+ yard TE in Cooley. Couple that with an OL that was actually pretty stout and I think Campbell could have done some damage after sitting on the bench and learning for a year.

[SirClintonPortis]

Gibbs was an awful GM but a great coach. Recipe for disaster if getting to the Super Bowl is your goal. Also, Collins seems to have expired now....

[scruffylookin]

Gibbs would have likely been 6-10 to 9-7 depending on injuries and the bounce of the ball and would have retired. He built nothing here and I consider his tenure here the second time around a complete failure and I've given my reason in the past and I'll do it again here.

Gibbs 2 was the biggest failure I've seen for one reason, he unlike anyone hired under Snyder had the keys to the kingdom and the respect of the owner and did jack **** with it.

Everyone saw the cluster**** this Front Office was in 2008 and 2009. Who "built" that? Joe Gibbs that's who. He did nothing to improve this front office. He kept that trash Vinny around. He wasted draft picks on veterans. He made some poor draft choices. He presided over a subpar front office and when he walked away he had so emboldened the know-nothing owner so much that Danny had the gall to basically say (paraphrasing) "what we do is working wonderfully so I'm not changing a thing".

I'll give Gibbs 2 credit for still being a strong leader of the team (though he and his offensive staff were clearly not up to snuff).

Gibbs 2 left this team in the same shape he left it the first time. A team held up by some veterans and was on the brink of collapse anyway due to little good young talent and he jumps ship before it sank.

[Papabear]

Reality Check

Our beloved Joe Gibss quit on this team. I know he stated his reasons but why then did he devote all of that free time to Nascar and the talk circuit?

He didn't even tell Joe Bugel or the rest of his coaching staff let alone his players when he quit. He could have spoken to Snyder and the HC job and it would have been handed to Williams. Like players before and after him-Joe Gibbs took the money and ran. Heck given the way Snyder worshiped him, Gibbs could have been Danny's mentor. But instead set the example for the Haynesworths of today.

I respect what he did here the first time around. And I applaud him for many of the thing she did the second time around. But he left the organization in a shambles.

No opinion here-just the facts

Maybe he knew the direction in which the franchise was moving and realized that Snyder was a piece of ****? I don't blame him. Why would he want to waste another year of his aging life coaching player that are only 25-30 years younger than him? He saw it way before the fans did for some reason when it was in plan view all along. Way to save yourself Joe Gibbs. Your still a pimp in my eyes.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I've wrote numerous times on the ridiculous criticism Coach' second go-around continues to get from many around here who should know WAY better (this is the last thread I put up on the subject: http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?305230-The-continued-ES-disrespect-for-one-of-our-own.); so I won't go over all that again as it will only go over many heads.

I don't have a clue what would have happened in '08 had he seen out that 5th year. We certainly had all the momentum built from the 4 game winning turnaround at the end of the '07 season, and by all accounts he was swaying to keeping Collins in as starter. Would that of worked over a season? I personally have my doubts as to whether TC's body would of held up; but one thing's for certain, he sure as heck sparked much needed life into that offense when Captain Checkdown went down injured.

The biggest single mistake we made IMHO was not giving Gregg the gig. Coach had left everything in place for a smooth transition to a man that not only had all the players respect, but who's D was playing some frighteningly good stuff at the end of the previous year. (Shutting down AP in Minnesota and holding the 'Girls to ONE rushing yard comes to instantly to mind. One yard rushing in 60 minutes of football just blows the mind.).

But the owner and his erstwhile sidekick managed to even bungle that to instead come up with a "yes man" that had not so much as been a coordinator so they could continue their fantasy football regime unabated.

Hail.

[Riggo-toni]

A better question is where the team would be if Snyder had promoted GW to coach. The sticking points that forced Williams out:He wanted final say over Vinny for personnel,he wanted to keep Saunders, and he wanted to jettison JC and start Collins. He was of course right on all counts, but Snyderatto chose Zorno because he promised to develop JC and let Vanny pick the players.

[PeterMP]

I don't understand how anybody can say that moving forward with Collins would have really been an improvement. While I'll admit the team did well with Collins down the stretch, he was not a long term answer at QB given the talent on the team.

This team either needs/needed a very good QB or a serious up-grade in talent up and down the roster, and there is no way that Collins would have been a viable QB after the 2-3 years (assuming everything goes perfectly) required for that up-grade to happen.

[Hollywood1127]

The Redskins offense showed life with Todd Collins at the end of 2007 against some pretty good teams before dismantling in Seattle... The defense was... Lacking in turnovers and a pass rush, but still Top 10.

Gibbs, Saunders, and Williams come back for another year.

They have the following picks in the 2008 NFL Draft: 1, 2, 3, 3, 5, 7, 7, 7

What would've happened?

Good question. Now let me break it down to you and explain how it would have worked. If Gibbs had stayed the team probably would have been better off. The major problem was Vinny. Vinny did everything but draft good O-Linemen. If Vinny had drafted O-Linemen, Gibbs and Al Saunders would have been able to do more with the team as far as the run game and pass game goes. Eventually I feel that Vinny would have gotten fired, based on the way the O-Line played in 2008. Both Gibbs, Saunders and Bugel would have demanded that Vinny be released. Some how we probably would have ended up getting Bruce Allen because his father had a legacy with the team. So it would have been someone good for Joe Gibbs to talk to and build connections with.

As for your Todd Collins comment, I agree with you. He happens to be one of my favorite QB's. The reason why he was so good was because Al Saunders had a lot of influence in the play calling when Todd Collins came in. Saunders knew Collins back when both of them were in Kansas City. So most of those plays that Collins did, were scripts from the Kansas City offense that Saunders and Shottenheimer coached. If Gibbs and Saunders had both stayed Campbell would have eventually been benched and Todd Collins would have started for the 2008 season. Al Saunders wanted to start Collins because he felt that his genious behind the Kansas City offense would lead the team to victories and put up higher numbers. Fans were also talking about starting Collins and benching Campbell. And to back up my theory behind Todd Collins, we can use two references from last season. When he came in for Campbell in 2009 game against Kansas he threw for a 40 yard completition to Moss on his first play. People in the sports bar were like "LET HIM STAY IN". But he was taken out after halftime. Then in 2009 Monday Night game against Giants, he did the same thing when he came in for Campbell. He threw for a 40 yard completition to Moss, before being taken out again. The first play Campbell comes back in, throws an interception and Giants score. So yes, I believe Todd Collins should have gotten more play time in the 2008 and 2009 season.

Now lets move on to Gregg Williams. In no doubt in my mind, was he a good defensive coordinator. I believe we would still be doing things if he was our defensive coordinator. We would probably would have gotten a decent free safety to replace Sean Taylor.

[Seabee1973]

No way we would have improved anything under GW he is to Arrogant for his own good. We would have never succeeded with Collins we might have had a few flash games but nothing great would have come out he is better suited as a backup but if you are going to have a backup a younger one is almost always better. This team has been mismanged from the minute snyder took over basically.

[OuterBanksTarHeel]

I've wrote numerous times on the ridiculous criticism Coach' second go-around continues to get from many around here who should know WAY better (this is the last thread I put up on the subject: http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?305230-The-continued-ES-disrespect-for-one-of-our-own.); so I won't go over all that again as it will only go over many heads.

I don't have a clue what would have happened in '08 had he seen out that 5th year. We certainly had all the momentum built from the 4 game winning turnaround at the end of the '07 season, and by all accounts he was swaying to keeping Collins in as starter. Would that of worked over a season? I personally have my doubts as to whether TC's body would of held up; but one thing's for certain, he sure as heck sparked much needed life into that offense when Captain Checkdown went down injured.

The biggest single mistake we made IMHO was not giving Gregg the gig. Coach had left everything in place for a smooth transition to a man that not only had all the players respect, but who's D was playing some frighteningly good stuff at the end of the previous year. (Shutting down AP in Minnesota and holding the 'Girls to ONE rushing yard comes to instantly to mind. One yard rushing in 60 minutes of football just blows the mind.).

But the owner and his erstwhile sidekick managed to even bungle that to instead come up with a "yes man" that had not so much as been a coordinator so they could continue their fantasy football regime unabated.

Hail.

And yet, Joe Gibbs is one of the few man walking this earth who could make himself boss over Snyder.

And instead of taking advantage of that unique authority and demanding that the team be rebuilt with young talent, he signed 90 year old Mark Brunell to a fat contract and threw away draft picks like candy.

Gibbs II the coach can't be separated from Gibbs the personnel man when evaluating his return.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

2008 might have been a playoff season with Collins starting in that offense, but where would we be long-term? Probably not in any better position than we are now. We might have Gregg Williams as head coach, but who would be assembling the talent?

[hail2skins]

I'm of the opinion that Gibbs 2.0 was so-so, but given the timing of this thread I will say this: He was here for the longest tenure (so far) under Snyder, and while the Skins got thumped in some road games in the 2004-2007 timeframe (the 52-7 game in New England is the big one that comes to mind), I don't think a team came into Landover in those four years and embarrassed us like we have been in games under the other coaches and now with Shanahan.