What if Gibbs stayed for Year 5?

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I'm of the opinion that Gibbs 2.0 was so-so, but given the timing of this thread I will say this: He was here for the longest tenure (so far) under Snyder, and while the Skins got thumped in some road games in the 2004-2007 timeframe (the 52-7 game in New England is the big one that comes to mind), I don't think a team came into Landover in those four years and embarrassed us like we have been in games under the other coaches and now with Shanahan.

I'd agree that we didn't get blown out at home, but you can get embarrassed without getting blown out:

2004: We lost to a horrible Bengals team 17-10

2005: We lost to a horrible Raiders team 16-13

2006: We lost to a then-winless Titans team 25-22

2007: We lost to a very bad Bills team 17-16 (though I think the team gets a pass on that game)

So, at least once per year, we'd drop a game at home to a bad team. That's embarrassing even if we didn't get blown out of the building.

[hail2skins]

I'd agree that we didn't get blown out at home, but you can get embarrassed without getting blown out:

2004: We lost to a horrible Bengals team 17-10

2005: We lost to a horrible Raiders team 16-13

2006: We lost to a then-winless Titans team 25-22

2007: We lost to a very bad Bills team 17-16 (though I think the team gets a pass on that game)

So, at least once per year, we'd drop a game at home to a bad team. That's embarrassing even if we didn't get blown out of the building.

I see your point, TD, but all of those teams you mentioned (except the Raiders) finished the season either 7-9/8-8, and in all of the games (except the Bengals) we were ahead for good stretches of those games.

Its just something about getting blown out of your own building like we seem to do far too often on the national stage that is disturbing.....but that's being covered in other threads.

[jflow78]

No idea what would have happened. I just would have liked to see what they would have done with those draft picks.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I see your point, TD, but all of those teams you mentioned (except the Raiders) finished the season either 7-9/8-8, and in all of the games (except the Bengals) we were ahead for good stretches of those games.

Its just something about getting blown out of your own building like we seem to do far too often on the national stage that is disturbing.....but that's being covered in other threads.

Well, I didn't realize that all those teams ended up near .500 (I knew Tennessee did, but I'm still mad that we blew a big lead to give them a jump start!!). I will have to stand corrected since that means that half of my examples are of us losing a home game to a better team! I guess, as it turns out, the 2005 game is the only one that fits my initial criteria. Good catch!

[respectgibbs]

Gibbs would have likely been 6-10 to 9-7 depending on injuries and the bounce of the ball and would have retired. He built nothing here and I consider his tenure here the second time around a complete failure and I've given my reason in the past and I'll do it again here.

Gibbs 2 was the biggest failure I've seen for one reason, he unlike anyone hired under Snyder had the keys to the kingdom and the respect of the owner and did jack **** with it.

Everyone saw the cluster**** this Front Office was in 2008 and 2009. Who "built" that? Joe Gibbs that's who. He did nothing to improve this front office. He kept that trash Vinny around. He wasted draft picks on veterans. He made some poor draft choices. He presided over a subpar front office and when he walked away he had so emboldened the know-nothing owner so much that Danny had the gall to basically say (paraphrasing) "what we do is working wonderfully so I'm not changing a thing".

I'll give Gibbs 2 credit for still being a strong leader of the team (though he and his offensive staff were clearly not up to snuff).

Gibbs 2 left this team in the same shape he left it the first time. A team held up by some veterans and was on the brink of collapse anyway due to little good young talent and he jumps ship before it sank.

How about you show some damn respect to the man that gave us everything we have.

[PlayAction]

Gibbs II was awful. He was involved in the personnel decisions that cost the franchise multiple draft picks for worthless players. So, I think if Gibbs had stayed we would still be flirting with an 8:8 record. It would have been better to keep Williams as head coach IMO.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

How about you show some damn respect to the man that gave us everything we have.

I don't think he said anything out of bounds. It's not personal at all. I think people need to separate Gibbs I and Gibbs II when analyzing our history.

[S.T.real,lights,out]

How about you show some damn respect to the man that gave us everything we have.

Well idk about you but he didn't give me jack! And i totally agree Gibbs II was a total failure. IDK who would have been the coach if he stayed and quit/didn't re-sign after year 5 but im sure that person would have been stuck with a team even older than we are now.

[respectgibbs]

Yea, Gibbs II gave us "nothing". Not like he took us to the Playoffs twice in four years. Ridiculous

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Yea, Gibbs II gave us "nothing". Not like he took us to the Playoffs twice in four years. Ridiculous

I think the point isn't what he did during those 4 years, but where we'd be now (in 2010) had he stayed aboard for 2008. I think we'd be worse off because we'd probably still have Cerrato calling the shots.

[wrecker]

If 21 wasn't murdered, Gibbs stays, we have a top 5 defense while the offense continues to progress. We become a playoff team and would now be respectable.

Even if we didn't win a superbowl, Gibbs hands the team to GW and we are in the hunt every year.

That is how I think it would have went.

[Seabee1973]

Yea, Gibbs II gave us "nothing". Not like he took us to the Playoffs twice in four years. Ridiculous

Its nice to say we got to the playoffs but even those playoff teams were not that good

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Its nice to say we got to the playoffs but even those playoff teams were not that good

I think the 2005 team was good. My gripe would be that it was built for the short-term. Never during the Gibbs era did I feel comfortable that we'd climb the mountain for the next 10 years. There was always a feeling of having to win in 4-5 years or being thrust back to the bottom of the league. He did what he could, but pretty much just covered up some organizational flaws with his leadership.

In the back of my mind, from 2004 until 2007, I was always wondering what the next regime would be. Having Gibbs back was a nice break from the misery, but it was obviously never going to be a long-term solution.

[Conn]

How about you show some damn respect to the man that gave us everything we have.

With the mess our team is right now, if you seriously think that because of the success he gave us in the past, Gibbs' second tenure here is beyond reproach and above questioning....that's just naive.

[WALL-LE]

^^^^

sounds like shanny

[Conn]

^^^^

sounds like shanny

What? No. Not yet, at least.

Shanny's had one offseason.

But the core of this team is left over from the Gibbs, then Vinny years. You can split the blame however you want between them, but to think that Gibbs is completely beyond questioning, is absurd.

I understand and greatly respect the man for his contributions to this franchise. But some worship him on a level that defies rationality. I'm not blind enough to think that he was without fault in this team's construction throughout his second tenure.

[33]

I would have loved Gibbs to stay with the momentum we were showing, but to think Todd Collins could survive a full season with his lack of mobility is stretching it a bit.

I still don't understand why you choose to return all your starters, but change the offensive system completely and have the playoffs as your goal. Forget the idiot coach they hired.

[MadMonkey]

The Redskins offense showed life with Todd Collins at the end of 2007 against some pretty good teams before dismantling in Seattle... The defense was... Lacking in turnovers and a pass rush, but still Top 10.

Gibbs, Saunders, and Williams come back for another year.

They have the following picks in the 2008 NFL Draft: 1, 2, 3, 3, 5, 7, 7, 7

What would've happened?

What would have happened?

The continuation of giving away draft picks for old nonproductive players!

[HailGreen28]

In Saunder's offense, Todd Collins would have been good enough for another couple years. Time for us to draft or sign a couple prospects, while we still stay respectable, maybe even catch fire and take another shot in the playoffs.

I wouldn't be surprised if we backslid in 2009 with Gibbs at the head. Gibbs II was one bad season, one good season, rinse and repeat.

With Gibbs picking players (with Vinny's *help*), I wouldn't expect us to do much more, except make a little smarter choices in the 2008 draft. Maybe gotten an extra decent O-Lineman. We might STILL have done the horrible Jason Taylor deal.

To those of you bashing Joe Gibbs: You're displaying your own ignorance. We were NOTHING when Gibbs stepped in, thanks to the Vinny/Spurrier debacle. He restored us to respectability, made the playoffs ever other year. One example: Andy Reid once said: Once Gibbs was in charge, he and other opposing coaches had to start spending time watching film and gameplanning the Skins again, like they had to other good teams, unlike the previous two years they could safely take evenings off.

Yes he built an old roster, so he could try winning even with the sorry state of the team. This wasn't 1980. Talent wise we were a lot worse off in 2003. Not every pick was a success, even guys like Gibbs, Walsh, or Belichick aren't perfect. But he did rebuild the team into a contender.

Vinny had the opportunity to reload the O-Line from a playoff team, but thought getting a bunch of pass catchers was the answer that year. 2009 still no reloading, he tried to ride the team Gibbs built and failed. 2008-2009 it was Vinny's baby with about a full slate of draft picks (we had what two 7ths, instead of a 6th and a 7th, full slate otherwise in 2008?), and Vinny turned a playoff team into a laughingstock. Just like he did when he was "picking players" for Spurrier.

Yes, Gibbs II wasn't nearly as good as Gibbs I. You'll find only a handful of other regimes that are even on the same level as Gibbs I. What happened before and after Gibbs II, isn't Joe's fault.

[ChicagoRedskinsFan]

I'm telling you guys, Gibbs will never admit it, but, IMO....Joe Gibbs saw the writing on the wall with this team.

When Gibbs came in, he knew Ramsey sucked, so he traded for Brunell, knowing Brunell had a couple seasons left in him. He drafted Campbell, thinking at the time, Campbell was the long term answer at QB. As Campbell sat behind Brunell, trying to learn, and as Brunell wore down, due to age and the hits he took, it was finally time for Campbell to take over.

Gibbs learned pretty quick that he had made a mistake with Campbell, and while Collins was an adequate part-time backup, he knew he didn't have what it took to be a full season starter in the league. Brunell was finished as a starter, and Campbell was not good enough. Gibbs did not come to rebuild this franchise, he came in with a mission to get the team in what was it's current state, as far as he thought he could get them.

I really think 2005 could have gone much better had Brunell not basically been trying to play on one knee going into the playoffs. Brunell survived the Tampa Game, but was in no shape to lead this team in the Seattle game. Combine that with Rogers dropping an easy pick-6 that puts us up 10-0, and a post-season that could have been even better, crumbled.

The run in 2007 was similar, but I think the team was a little older, a little more beaten down, and even less prepared by the time they actually got into the playoffs.

At the end of the 2007 season, I think Gibbs realized that under Campbell, the team wasn't going to go any further then they had already gotten, and he was not about to stick around, draft another QB and wait another 3 years to hope they produce and become a good NFL QB.

We wasted a great defense in 2004 because we had a gimpy Brunnell. No doubt Brunell reverted to 2004 form at the end of the 2005 season and prevented us from going deeper into the playoffs. It's too bad because both the 2005 and 2007 playoff games in Seattle were winnable. And we saw the wildcard Giants (whom we beat in the Meadowlands in Dec.) go all the way in 2007 and thought, why can't that be us?

I definitely feel 2008 would have been Gibbs best of his 2nd tenure, when you consider they started 6-2 without him - and Gibb's Redskins play their best football in December! I thought Snyder had found a coaching prodigy in Zorn, but we learned that the fast start was really due to what he inherited. So i Iook at 2008 as a missed opportunity to have a strong finish to Gibbs 2.0 and put a nicer spin on the whole thing. But being a Redskins fan is all about regrets.

[OuterBanksTarHeel]

How about you show some damn respect to the man that gave us everything we have.

Translation: be a homer; never use your brain and always think with your heart.

[tonyriggins]

He would have gotten better I suppose but had a long was to go. I dont think Gibbs would have went with Collins, he always went with the QBs that he select (Brunell and Campbell) even though Ramsey and Collins outplayed his guys and even when he did change from his QBs the 1st messup the other quarterbacks did he would pull them for his guys and we had to painfully watch Brunell play terrible before being pulled.

For me when Greg Williams said that he believed ST didnt spit on that player, he lost creditablity.

[hail2skins]

The threads about Gibbs frequently seem to devolve into finger-pointing where people accuse others of personally attacking and disrespecting Joe. I thank the guy for coming back and giving it a great shot, and his tenure here did have a modicum of success (two playoff appearances) with a couple of bad seasons, and a few personnel successes and a few failures (giving away picks and the 2006 FA class come to mind). When it comes to ascribing the failure adjective overall, I tend to think of it more as an organizational failure than anything else. We were all euphoric when Joe came back but when you stepped back and thought about it, you had a guy that was close to 64 years old and legendary work habits, and had to wonder if he was going to stay past his five-year deal, if at all. Given that, how much of a long-term impact was he going to have here? Dan Snyder has said that Gibbs could've been "coach for life." Did Dan really foresee Gibbs being like JoePa, prowling the sidelines in his 80s? If so, how naive.

[HailGreen28]

He would have gotten better I suppose but had a long was to go. I dont think Gibbs would have went with Collins, he always went with the QBs that he select (Brunell and Campbell) even though Ramsey and Collins outplayed his guys and even when he did change from his QBs the 1st messup the other quarterbacks did he would pull them for his guys and we had to painfully watch Brunell play terrible before being pulled.

For me when Greg Williams said that he believed ST didnt spit on that player, he lost creditablity.

That was the story up to 2007. That Saunders had begged Gibbs in games earlier to play Collins instead of Candle. After the dramatic turnaround in 2007, I think we start Collins if Saunders was still around, which would have been the case I think if Gibbs had stayed.

After the "spitting" game, it was either Joe Gibbs or Gregg Williams that said having not seen any tape, they would back Sean Taylor completely. Whichever coach said it, the other backed them up on it. Which was the right thing to do. At the time, Taylor said he didn't do it, and both Gibbs and Williams were loyal to their players. Williams was said to love ST as a son, well before his death.

[tonyriggins]

Williams should have know that there was a good chance that Sean did it, and not comment on the subject, it was the 2nd time he had been accused of it. Taylor's behavior wasn't role model, I think coach should have know better, I didnt expect him to throw him under the bus either. But anyway Sean turned things around and maybe Greg had something to do with that I dont know.