Going against the Mob, somewhat in support of Haynesworth

[dcdiscokid]

The problem doesn't lie with the financial part of his deal' date=' it lies with what he was promised when he signed the contract that he would be playing in a 4-3, to change that after 1 year is not really fair to a guy who was promised something else[/quote']

He was on a crappy team with a coach on the hot seat when he signed the deal. He could not honestly expect there was not a possibility that there could be a change and it might include switching to a 3-4, being that 75% of the league is now running the 3-4. And not to mention that he signed a 7 year deal with a team that has had 12 coaches in the last 16 years. So I think the probability was pretty high that he would see the 3-4 sometime during his contract.

[SWFLSkins]

this isn't what pat kirwan, former GM with access to player's contracts, said on sirius radio on wednesday... he read albert's contract and said the 21M bonus was dated and the skins could have gotten out of the contract before april 1st. by cutting him; they went to AH and asked if he was on board, he said he was, took the bonus, and then did not show for the mini-camp, and requested to be traded.

he blamed allen, who is a good friend and was a regular guest on their show last year, for trusting AH after his repeated history of being a scumbag...

YEP, Allen is guilty as charged, wait what's the penalty for being a trusting GM? Oh, right the players tend to know that they can count on you and will give their all. Haynesworth lied and took the check. POS>Haynesworth.

[MartinC]

except that Albert was already owed that 21 million because the redskins wrote the contract that way. so its like Shannahan saying YOU GIVE US BACK 21 MILLION AND WE WILL TRADE YOU. I would have done the exact same thing Albert did, no thats not true I would have taken the bonus and thensaid ": screw you, thats already MY money, you want to meet halfway then we will but im not gonna be the only one giving up something."

But he was owed the 21m as payment fir future services. It was an advance on salary. Now, as per the CBA, you play or you pay it back. It really is that simple.

[Ryman of the North]

thats the rub, where does it say on the contract that the bonus was all for future services? Ive read several sources who say the contract language was nebulous and the skins pushed a future bonus to now to take advantage of the Cap (or lack of one). and the simple fact is that the skins were stupid to break their word to a guy and then to expect him to keep his.

[SWFLSkins]

thats the rub, where does it say on the contract that the bonus was all for future services? Ive read several sources who say the contract language was nebulous and the skins pushed a future bonus to now to take advantage of the Cap (or lack of one). and the simple fact is that the skins were stupid to break their word to a guy and then to expect him to keep his.

Excuse me for my ignorance maybe I missed it, where has it been documented, otherthan speculation, that he was promised to live out his career in the land of the unchanging 4-3? As well where is it documented that he would be solely playing NT in this new hybrid Defense of Hasletts?

[THE HAMMER'IN HOG]

He was on a crappy team with a coach on the hot seat when he signed the deal. He could not honestly expect there was not a possibility that there could be a change and it might include switching to a 3-4, being that 75% of the league is now running the 3-4. And not to mention that he signed a 7 year deal with a team that has had 12 coaches in the last 16 years. So I think the probability was pretty high that he would see the 3-4 sometime during his contract.

Hey in all fairness if you specifically sign with a team because of the type of defense they run, then I can't get on the guy when it changes, this nonsense that 75% of the league runs a 3-4 is irrelevant, when is the last time we ran it? Never! so it was a safe bet on AH's part that it would stay that way, AH did turn down other teams that did run 3-4's, of coarse we know our monetary proposal had a lot to do with that regardless.

Has AH said he wont play outside in the 3-4? I don't see any reason why he wouldn't be a monster outside in the 3-4, in fact I believe that putting him on the same side as Rak would create absolute nightmares for teams trying to keep their QB's out of the hospital. I have bigger worries about Haslett's approach on defense than I do about AH's commitment, why wouldn't he want AH on the outside with Rak is puzzling to me?

[grego]

thats the rub, where does it say on the contract that the bonus was all for future services? Ive read several sources who say the contract language was nebulous and the skins pushed a future bonus to now to take advantage of the Cap (or lack of one). and the simple fact is that the skins were stupid to break their word to a guy and then to expect him to keep his.

you believe that the contract is nebulous as far as the 21 mill being for future services, but you keep saying the skins 'broke their word' when they supposedly- but didnt put it in the contract- promised him a 3-4 for the length of his contract?

are you trying to play devils advocate or do you really believe what you are proposing? or are you johnny cochran jr?

[Ryman of the North]

you believe that the contract is nebulous as far as the 21 mill being for future services, but you keep saying the skins 'broke their word' when they supposedly- but didnt put it in the contract- promised him a 3-4 for the length of his contract?

are you trying to play devils advocate or do you really believe what you are proposing? or are you johnny cochran jr?

its callled paying attention and using common sense.

1- its never been argued that the skins promised Albert that we would use him effectively, its why he chose us over TB and the giants.

2- why would you put it into a contract? we had never run a 3-4 in our history, and we were succsessful in a 4-3, common friggin sense says you dont pay a guy 100 million to suck up blocks and if you have a top 4 defence you dont completely blow it up you adjust and tweak, at least it used to.....

[grego]

its callled paying attention and using common sense.

1- its never been argued that the skins promised Albert that we would use him effectively, its why he chose us over TB and the giants.

2- why would you put it into a contract? we had never run a 3-4 in our history, and we were succsessful in a 4-3, common friggin sense says you dont pay a guy 100 million to suck up blocks and if you have a top 4 defence you dont completely blow it up you adjust and tweak, at least it used to.....

i'm not sure what you were saying with point 1. as for point 2, there are a whole lot of unforeseen things that are put into contracts. nobody expects them to happen, but you put them in there to cover your ass.

it seems you actually give al enough credit to believe that his desire to play a 4/3 is important enough for him to hold out and ask for a trade, but not important enough to put in a contract.

its already been brought up how many coaches/systems the skins have been through in recent years, so i wont rehash it. safe to say its a good response to the 'we've never run a 3/4' argument.

you dont pay him 100 mill to suck up blocks. but you do pay him significantly less to do so, which is what he'd be getting paid, since he's already pocketed 32 mill.

and if you think our D was really top 4, i've got some jason campbell stats- about his red zone performance, in particular, i'd like to discuss with you.

[polywog999]

Hey in all fairness if you specifically sign with a team because of the type of defense they run' date=' then I can't get on the guy when it changes, this nonsense that 75% of the league runs a 3-4 is irrelevant, when is the last time we ran it? Never! so it was a safe bet on AH's part that it would stay that way, AH did turn down other teams that did run 3-4's, of coarse we know our monetary proposal had a lot to do with that regardless.

Has AH said he wont play outside in the 3-4? I don't see any reason why he wouldn't be a monster outside in the 3-4, in fact I believe that putting him on the same side as Rak would create absolute nightmares for teams trying to keep their QB's out of the hospital. I have bigger worries about Haslett's approach on defense than I do about AH's commitment, why wouldn't he want AH on the outside with Rak is puzzling to me?[/quote']

We pay AH a lot of money to play football wherever we need him! We cannot guarantee that the team will not evolve over time. I have very little sympathy for Haynesworth.

[HailGreen28]

thats the rub, where does it say on the contract that the bonus was all for future services? Ive read several sources who say the contract language was nebulous and the skins pushed a future bonus to now to take advantage of the Cap (or lack of one). and the simple fact is that the skins were stupid to break their word to a guy and then to expect him to keep his.

WHEN DID THE SKINS BREAK THEIR WORD TO HAYNESWORTHLESS?

I can point to times Haynesworthless lied. About "himself being a bigger motivator than the money", wanting to take double-teams so other guys "can make plays off me".

And where on the contract does it say the bonus was for past services, and not a cap gimmick the Skins negotiated in good faith with Fat ***.

You've made two assumptions this whole thread that need closer examination:

1. We know Haynesworthless has lied. When have the Skins?

2. What IS the nature of the 21 mil bonus? We know what the Skins and Fat *** thought of it. What was in writing?

Can anybody help me out with those two assumptions that have been made this entire thread?

[SWFLSkins]

You know all this dicussion in this thread of late, AH in the 3-4, 4-3 would have greater meaning had the man himself actually performed as expected and paid to do last year. Not that he was that bad, but was he really that good? His effort sucked, out of shape and took plays off.

One point in which I can not disagree with Ryman on, the signing was a mistake in the first place-all to apparent now. And I don't feel that AH is totally wrong in his questioning the Defensive scheme and his role in it. Only the fact that how he went about it, through the media and taking the check when it could have been dealt with then. HE is coming accross just as he is, a great player with a bad attitude who is not helpful to his team.

At this point would any of us really miss him as a Redskin?

[Going Commando]

Much of this discussion is still a bit premature.

What if he plays for us this year and plays well? It would change my opinion of him for the better. That's not really that far fetched either because:

1.) We really can't trade him or cut him not because of that 21 million dollar bonus (the talk of cutting him is absurd, we'd still take a significant hit from it apart from the 21 million we already gave him)

and,

2.) He's a special talent and among the best at his position in the league.

I'd bet dollars to donuts that he plays for us this season and he's too good to suck at any position on the defensive line. He could play 4-3 RE if he wanted. I think the man is an ******* but we've already got him, paid for him, and we can certainly use him. I definitely hope he stays with us and plays.

[Ryman of the North]

i'm not sure what you were saying with point 1. as for point 2, there are a whole lot of unforeseen things that are put into contracts. nobody expects them to happen, but you put them in there to cover your ass.

it seems you actually give al enough credit to believe that his desire to play a 4/3 is important enough for him to hold out and ask for a trade, but not important enough to put in a contract.

its already been brought up how many coaches/systems the skins have been through in recent years, so i wont rehash it. safe to say its a good response to the 'we've never run a 3/4' argument.

you dont pay him 100 mill to suck up blocks. but you do pay him significantly less to do so, which is what he'd be getting paid, since he's already pocketed 32 mill.

and if you think our D was really top 4, i've got some jason campbell stats- about his red zone performance, in particular, i'd like to discuss with you.

1- was rather simple TB and the Giants both promised similiar money (TB was rumored to have promised him more), however WE promised him that we would scheme around him and given that WE put our money where our mouth was, he believed us. Think for a second here, why would anyone give someone a hundred million and then NOT build a defence around him?

2-thats the lamest argument in this thread, in those many many coaches and schemes how many were a 3-4? and after signing the PREMIER 4-3 DT who in their right mind would think we would blow up the #4 ranked D instead of tweaking it and adding a few players?

[Ryman of the North]

You know all this dicussion in this thread of late, AH in the 3-4, 4-3 would have greater meaning had the man himself actually performed as expected and paid to do last year. Not that he was that bad, but was he really that good? His effort sucked, out of shape and took plays off.

One point in which I can not disagree with Ryman on, the signing was a mistake in the first place-all to apparent now. And I don't feel that AH is totally wrong in his questioning the Defensive scheme and his role in it. Only the fact that how he went about it, through the media and taking the check when it could have been dealt with then. HE is coming accross just as he is, a great player with a bad attitude who is not helpful to his team.

At this point would any of us really miss him as a Redskin?

except that he actually played, played very well and played a lot, when you are 350 and actually pursue the ball like Albert is known to do you will get tired, however he was an animal on short yards and dominated the LOS in the running game. someone posted the metrics already. Its a myth that Albert didnt have a good year, a myth thats been widely spread, but still a myth.

[Ryman of the North]

WHEN DID THE SKINS BREAK THEIR WORD TO HAYNESWORTHLESS?

I can point to times Haynesworthless lied. About "himself being a bigger motivator than the money", wanting to take double-teams so other guys "can make plays off me".

And where on the contract does it say the bonus was for past services, and not a cap gimmick the Skins negotiated in good faith with Fat ***.

You've made two assumptions this whole thread that need closer examination:

1. We know Haynesworthless has lied. When have the Skins?

2. What IS the nature of the 21 mil bonus? We know what the Skins and Fat *** thought of it. What was in writing?

Can anybody help me out with those two assumptions that have been made this entire thread?

negotiated in good faith? bwuahahahaha, FFS you guys are amazing, my entire point of this thread is WHY DO THE SKINS GET A PASS FOR BREAKING THEIR WORD MADE (IN GOOD FAITH) and yes its been said by other people than Albert that the skins made it, WHEN ALBERT BROKE HIS WORD (made IN GOOD FAITH?) and didnt show for camp, you people point to the contract as if its the holy grail, but nowher in the contract does it say Albert has to

[NewCliche21]

Ryman, congrats on passing the 2K mark after 10 years on a very one-sided thread. I wholeheartedly disagree with your points, but I respect them nonetheless.

Haynesworth didn't do anything wrong contractually. He took the money that he was allowed to take. End of contract story.

However, he's a dick for taking it when knowing that he just wanted to ***** out and leave. The Redskins got a better front office and coaching staff and Haynesworth didn't like it, and he went the worst route possible. He's a prick. End of other story.

[skinfan2k]

I see what Ryman is trying to say. Haynesworth effectiveness is most when he is an attacking 4-3 DT. switching to a 3-4 limits his potential. I can understand why he is frustrated and he probably see that we are not a team that will be good with a 3-4 defense. Besides Fletcher and Orakpo, there isnt one person we can call great in this scheme, everyone else is a question mark!

[Ryman of the North]

Ryman, congrats on passing the 2K mark after 10 years on a very one-sided thread. I wholeheartedly disagree with your points, but I respect them nonetheless.

Haynesworth didn't do anything wrong contractually. He took the money that he was allowed to take. End of contract story.

However, he's a dick for taking it when knowing that he just wanted to ***** out and leave. The Redskins got a better front office and coaching staff and Haynesworth didn't like it, and he went the worst route possible. He's a prick. End of other story.

the only thing we disagree on here is the reasons Albert wants to leave. I genuinely think he dislikes Shannahan because Shannahan was confrontational and tried to establish dominance especially in regards to the 3-4. as for coaching I think Blache was better than Haslett but time will tell. hopefully im wrong on that.

[grego]

1- was rather simple TB and the Giants both promised similiar money (TB was rumored to have promised him more), however WE promised him that we would scheme around him and given that WE put our money where our mouth was, he believed us. Think for a second here, why would anyone give someone a hundred million and then NOT build a defence around him?

thats what i thought you meant. do you have a link about what the skins promised him?

i dont really think that what haslett and shanny want to do is any different from what you are proposing. al is talented when motivated- i'm sure they are going to play him where he is most effective. why wouldnt they?

2-thats the lamest argument in this thread, in those many many coaches and schemes how many were a 3-4? and after signing the PREMIER 4-3 DT who in their right mind would think we would blow up the #4 ranked D instead of tweaking it and adding a few players?

your opinion is its a lame argument and thats ok. there are alot of opinions in this thread i think are lame. i've just kept that opinion to myself.

while i get what youre saying, there are too many factors involved in this defense of albert. for one, the D may have been #4 in yards in 08. in 09 they were worse (actually 18th in points). sure, you can try and tweak it. but if al didnt think that an organization like the skins wasnt ever going to change, he wasnt paying attention. about the only thing the skins hadnt tried in the last 5 years is a 3/4.

alot of people (including me) think our D wasnt really as good as our ranking in recent years. point is, its not above change anymore than the quarterback position was in philly. if you dont get the job done, you change, and the man who is in charge of the change is the coach.

the previous coach may or may not have 'promised' him something. that coach isnt here anymore. again, if it was that important, put it in the contract.

and who knows- if al was in better shape, as in, if he did everything he possibly could so he would be, essentially, blameless when it came to the D's performance- maybe there wouldnt be a need to change. he's not blameless. as such, he has little to complain about.

he hasnt shown up to a mini camp or practice to at least see where he'd be used. til he does, i dont know how i would defend him.

[HailGreen28]

negotiated in good faith? bwuahahahaha, FFS you guys are amazing, my entire point of this thread is WHY DO THE SKINS GET A PASS FOR BREAKING THEIR WORD MADE (IN GOOD FAITH) and yes its been said by other people than Albert that the skins made it, WHEN ALBERT BROKE HIS WORD (made IN GOOD FAITH?) and didnt show for camp, you people point to the contract as if its the holy grail, but nowher in the contract does it say Albert has to

When did the Skins lie to Haynesworthlessness?

And could you post a link to the contract? I've read the Skins side, and what you and a couple others have said. What's the truth on the matter, with what was written and what was said.

And BTW, I'm giving the Skins the benefit of the doubt so far, because so far, only Fat *** is a proven liar in this matter.

Most significantly, and I've asked this a lot in this thread: When did the Skins lie to Haynesworthless?

[HailGreen28]

I see what Ryman is trying to say. Haynesworth effectiveness is most when he is an attacking 4-3 DT. switching to a 3-4 limits his potential. I can understand why he is frustrated and he probably see that we are not a team that will be good with a 3-4 defense. Besides Fletcher and Orakpo, there isnt one person we can call great in this scheme, everyone else is a question mark!

So when we were in a 4-3 over/under last season, any situation where Fat *** was lined up near a guard or in the guard/center gap, were we in breech of contract? Or does a good defense and good player shuffle things around, and anybody in the NFL should know that? And has Haslett talked about actually using Hayneworth to his strengths? (loaded question)

[iwasdoinit]

This guy wasn't a model citizen before the Skins signed him. Then he spent a pretty fair amount of defensive downs gasping for breath on the sidelines last season. I don't know who else would have given him that much money. Then again I could say the same for a lot of the busts who came here. Hopefully this front office has learned a lesson. Haynesworth sold his soul for that bonus money and took them for fools.

[Ryman of the North]

So when we were in a 4-3 over/under last season, any situation where Fat *** was lined up near a guard or in the guard/center gap, were we in breach on contract? Or does a good defense and good player shuffle things around, and anybody in the NFL should know that? And has Haslett talked about actually using Hayneworth to his strengths? (loaded question)

moving a guy around to avoid a team scheming him is not the same as using a guy as a blocking dummy.

[Ryman of the North]

When did the Skins lie to Haynesworthlessness?

And could you post a link to the contract? I've read the Skins side, and what you and a couple others have said. What's the truth on the matter, with what was written and what was said.

And BTW, I'm giving the Skins the benefit of the doubt so far, because so far, only Fat *** is a proven liar in this matter.

Most significantly, and I've asked this a lot in this thread: When did the Skins lie to Haynesworthless?

I dont have a link to the contract, the info was posted on PFT and on that skins blog. several people not just alberts agent have agreed that the skins made promises that they didnt keep, its not hidden.