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Going against the Mob, somewhat in support of Haynesworth


Ryman of the North

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Hi Ryman,

Firstly, Kudos to you dude, very impressive.

Secondly, Thanks for the info, as I said I asked about your experience as you had mentioned twice about 'if you've played before' as I was just curious.

Thirdly, I wasn't questioning your team loyalty or commitment.

I appreciate there is a huge difference between a 3 tech and a nose (as I also said, I have played both as well) and I understand that he may be upset and anxious about the change.

I don't think anyone can dispute that he has a right to be anxious, but we're in agreement that what has annoyed everybody is the way he has handled himself.

The worst thing is that Albert doesn't even know what the scheme is all about, as he hasn't even showed up.

As a DC yourself, surely if you made a decision to change your D and one of your players didn't want to be a part of it, you would at least want your player to talk to you about it so you can discuss it.

So I can agree with you that Albert has a right to be anxious about playing in a new scheme, but that's about it.

Although, there's no rule that say's we need to agree.

No worries, Ive been pretty lucky, got decent genetics had some very good coaches early on and had a love for football that made it less like work more like fun.

I think that the disconnect regarding players is that until youve played both NT and Three tech at a high level its tough to understand the difference and many posters here dont even play football let alone understand the very different things each needs to do. I love the game but I would quit and not look back before playing NT again.

I am good friends with Israel Idonije (plays for the bears) and I was actually teasing him about playing NT just before this crap with Albert started. we both played DT in college and I went to the Bisons camp with him when I was younger. He said he would quit before playing NT too lmao.

Where I am upset with Albert is that he should have been far more honest from the get go, when Shannahan said " we want you to play NT" he should have simply said " no" and then offered to play end. he never should have spouted the party line that was foolish. I have heard from someone in the know that basically Albert was offered a take it or leave it in regards to the 21 million roster bonus, the problem to albert was that he considered that 21 million his by right.

as a DC I scheme AROUND my talent, I never say " this is what we are running like it or leave" if I had the talent here in calgary to run a 3-4 effectively I would, the issue to me is that too many coaches simply say " this is MY system, now adjust".

and no there is no rule that we need to agree, but we agree on the most important things specifically that The Redskins are better than than everyone else lmao.

Hail

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1. Shanny's been a head coach long enough to know more about the 3-4 than most of ES combined, including you and I. LOL.

2. Technically, Haslett had a 6th ranked defense with the Steelers in '97. And even though the stats actually regressed from there, the Saints hired him as HEAD COACH in 2000. Despite the stats, he got a better job AND was highly thought of around the league. Still is. Maybe he's the anti-Blanche, bad stats but better defense???

3. Dude, I'm not crazy about the 3-4 switch either. But the proof will be how the defense is in a couple years. And as far as the players now, how the defense performs this season. And while you expect everybody to say the right things, we aren't seeing anybody but Fat *** complaining.

And we haven't "blown it all up" for the 3-4. We got Carriker and Kemo for the 3-4. Set Rak and Wilson as a OLBs not DEs. And we have plenty of deopth at safety. That's at least as good a job as addressing our D as you posted above.

As far as "pissing off" our best player. HOW???? How did we "piss him off? Check out this article: link

(Haslett) “I think [Haynesworth] is the kind of guy where you have to sit down with him and kind of explain to him what you’re doing and where he fits in,” Haslett said. “I think he’s such a good athlete. I told him this the other day, ‘Don’t worry about what position you’re playing, you could play the nose, you could play end, you could play linebacker.’ “He’s a talented enough guy that he could probably do almost anything he wants. We’ll put him in the best position, to take advantage of the best of his qualities, and obviously what’s best for this football team. I think he would be scary if he was on a center or a weak guard.”

Now what excuse for Haynesworthless is there now?

He lied to the team and robbed us. That 21 mil could've helped us in a bunch of ways. NOBODY lied to Fat ***. That's the bottom line.

There's no excuse for Hayneworthless' behavior.

very good post bro. ;)

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1. Shanny's been a head coach long enough to know more about the 3-4 than most of ES combined, including you and I. LOL.

2. Technically, Haslett had a 6th ranked defense with the Steelers in '97. And even though the stats actually regressed from there, the Saints hired him as HEAD COACH in 2000. Despite the stats, he got a better job AND was highly thought of around the league. Still is. Maybe he's the anti-Blanche, bad stats but better defense???

3. Dude, I'm not crazy about the 3-4 switch either. But the proof will be how the defense is in a couple years. And as far as the players now, how the defense performs this season. And while you expect everybody to say the right things, we aren't seeing anybody but Fat *** complaining.

And we haven't "blown it all up" for the 3-4. We got Carriker and Kemo for the 3-4. Set Rak and Wilson as a OLBs not DEs. And we have plenty of deopth at safety. That's at least as good a job as addressing our D as you posted above.

As far as "pissing off" our best player. HOW???? How did we "piss him off? Check out this article: link

(Haslett) “I think [Haynesworth] is the kind of guy where you have to sit down with him and kind of explain to him what you’re doing and where he fits in,” Haslett said. “I think he’s such a good athlete. I told him this the other day, ‘Don’t worry about what position you’re playing, you could play the nose, you could play end, you could play linebacker.’ “He’s a talented enough guy that he could probably do almost anything he wants. We’ll put him in the best position, to take advantage of the best of his qualities, and obviously what’s best for this football team. I think he would be scary if he was on a center or a weak guard.”

Now what excuse for Haynesworthless is there now?

He lied to the team and robbed us. That 21 mil could've helped us in a bunch of ways. NOBODY lied to Fat ***. That's the bottom line.

There's no excuse for Hayneworthless' behavior.

I missed this , my apologies.

1- you would be wrong, I know from the old days on extremeskins that there are some extremely knowledgeable fans here and many former players coaches and scouts. I judge on actions and the way that Shanny implemented this switch showed me that he is absolutely clueless when it comes to defence.

2- Haslett is known as a motivator and as a rah rah guy, he isnt known as a scheme master or guru, which would be the kind of guy you would want for a switch like this. I havent found anything that showed him ever being the coord of anything more than a 12th ranked D, would you mind showing me where you found that? (not smartass I actually would like to read it.)

3- No, the so called justification for this swicth is to make us better NOW, they cant hide the reasoning behind the teams that made a switch to the 3-4 and did better and then say that they need a couple seasons, ESPECIALLY when two absolute studs for the 4-3 were available in Peppers and Kampman THIS YEAR. We added a bust who didnt play at all last year (Carrikker, who I think was a good signing for what we paid) and a guy coming off an injury that ALWAYS takes 2 seasons (maake) both of whom fit the 3-4 better than the 4-3 but maake at least could play in a 4-3 and be effective. Wilson keeps getting mentioned but hes bench fooder. Rak plays better with his hand in the dirt. and at safety we still lack a playmaker cover guy at FS.

That quote btw is absolute garbage, it was said to make Albert look bad, the truth is we have NO options at NT atm so I am unlikley to take Haslett at his word, you need to learn coachspeak lol. he is trying to justify the swap, as if any person with a brain would play Albert at LB, and the matchup over center or a weak guard would come far more often in a 40 than a 30 where he will be on the center the majority of the time.

I will say though it was well played by the skins and poorly played by Albert.

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Where I am upset with Albert is that he should have been far more honest from the get go, when Shannahan said " we want you to play NT" he should have simply said " no" and then offered to play end. he never should have spouted the party line that was foolish. I have heard from someone in the know that basically Albert was offered a take it or leave it in regards to the 21 million roster bonus, the problem to albert was that he considered that 21 million his by right.

________________________________________________

Ryman all this talk of late in this thread has made perfect sense, only that I again wonder where this was at the start. I appreciate the fact that you know and have experienced far more than I on DL. I played DB and safety and I know that the schemes and blocking assignments are all chinese to me. However the fact remains he had a conversation with Shannahan before taking the check, not a conversation with Snyder but with the HC. At that time he mislead the Coach as to his intentions, that is the rub. If he did not want to be a part of the 3-4 change he could have voiced that at that time.

Sorry your were injured, I know how that can affect your career.

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No worries, Ive been pretty lucky, got decent genetics had some very good coaches early on and had a love for football that made it less like work more like fun.

I think that the disconnect regarding players is that until youve played both NT and Three tech at a high level its tough to understand the difference and many posters here dont even play football let alone understand the very different things each needs to do. I love the game but I would quit and not look back before playing NT again.

I am good friends with Israel Idonije (plays for the bears) and I was actually teasing him about playing NT just before this crap with Albert started. we both played DT in college and I went to the Bisons camp with him when I was younger. He said he would quit before playing NT too lmao.

Where I am upset with Albert is that he should have been far more honest from the get go, when Shannahan said " we want you to play NT" he should have simply said " no" and then offered to play end. he never should have spouted the party line that was foolish. I have heard from someone in the know that basically Albert was offered a take it or leave it in regards to the 21 million roster bonus, the problem to albert was that he considered that 21 million his by right.

as a DC I scheme AROUND my talent, I never say " this is what we are running like it or leave" if I had the talent here in calgary to run a 3-4 effectively I would, the issue to me is that too many coaches simply say " this is MY system, now adjust".

and no there is no rule that we need to agree, but we agree on the most important things specifically that The Redskins are better than than everyone else lmao.

Hail

Damn right dude, HTTR!

I agree with building a defense around the players that you have on the team, Alberts problem is that he doesn't know whether that is something that Coach Haslett is doing or not as he hasn't been there. I know that the NT is usually a thankless task of endless double team, however, we only need to look at the 'Pukes to see that it's nopt always the same. Rat-lift has some freedon and takes advantage of it.

...

and that is another reason to hate Albert ... he made me complement the Cowgirls ... DAMN HIM!!! :dallasuck

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I know that the NT is usually a thankless task of endless double team, however, we only need to look at the 'Pukes to see that it's nopt always the same. Rat-lift has some freedon and takes advantage of it.

...

and that is another reason to hate Albert ... he made me complement the Cowgirls ... DAMN HIM!!! :dallasuck

Nice bro!..... Ratliff is a beast tho :yes:

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All of the "promise" were spelled out in the contract between the parties.

That's contract law 101. It goes like this:

WHEREAS:

I, AH, agree to play football for the Redskins;

I, Pro Football, Inc. DBA The Washington Redskins, agree to pay AH $100 million bucks;

This Agreement is binding on, and shall inure to the benefit of, the heirs, personal representatives, successors, and assigns of the parties.

No modifications of this Agreement will be effective unless it is in writing and is signed by both parties.

This document, including any attachments, is the entire Agreement between the Parties.

/s AH /s Redskins

There you have it.

If playing DT in a 4-3 just like he used to do with Jeff Fisher was a material element of the agreement between the parties (i.e. the contract), then AH and his reps should have gotten this provision inserted into the contract. To date all we hear about is this "promise" made during negotiations. Your free to hang your hat on that one, but I'm not real sympathetic to AH's reasoning here. If you want to argue moral obligation, which you are essentially doing, then AH should not have cashed the $21 million check. End of story. I'm still discusted this guy dared to reference Reggie White in his press conference.

Amen brother...somebody went to law school (or at least took some kind of basic contracts class or has dealsings with these types of contracts). I've been out of law school for 5 years now, and I basically analyzed the situation just the way you wrote. Clearly, there has to be some kind of performance clause in the contract for the benefit of the Redskins.

I'll admit I've never seen an NFL player/team contract, but there's gotta be a performance clause in there that the Skins (Shanahan & Allen) are hanging there hat on. You know, something like if you skip mandatory mini-camp, and then show up to training camp out of shape (and/or obese or close to it), you're gonna suffer some kind of reduction in your pay (both future and previous bonsuses included). I know there's gotta be something to that effect in these NFL player/team contracts.

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I think that the disconnect regarding players is that until youve played both NT and Three tech at a high level its tough to understand the difference and many posters here dont even play football let alone understand the very different things each needs to do. I love the game but I would quit and not look back before playing NT again.

Interesting stuff. I'm not clear if we are planning on playing a 3-4 front with a one gap or 2 gap scheme - that would make quite a difference to D'line responsibilities no?

While there is clearly a difference between what a 3 technique DT will do versus a NT in a 3-4 whatever the gap responsibility I think a better comparison for Haynesworth is the difference between the 3 tech DT and a 5 tech DE as I would think that Al would/will play as much or more DE in our 3-4 front as opposed to NT. I'm interested in your take on that?

Final point is I disagree with your take on Shannys qualification to make decisions on defensive scheme. I played QB and coached offense and to do either even reasonably well you have to understand defensive schemes and responsibilities to know how an where to attack them. Shanny is clearly far more than an average offensive coach and he spent a lot of his time out studying defensive schemes.

While I agree 100% with the point you make that a good coach will adjust his scheme to fit the talent he has rather than visa versa I think Shanny and Haslett are far better qualifued to make that call than any poster on here.

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Interesting stuff. I'm not clear if we are planning on playing a 3-4 front with a one gap or 2 gap scheme - that would make quite a difference to D'line responsibilities no?

Kind of. But generally the 3-4 will be a two-gap system. They kind of go hand in hand. However, obviously, it can be played as a one gap system as well. But either way, the nose has a difficult job... His job is pretty much to get beat up for four quarters and like it. You have to be a tough SOB to play that spot, and unselfish as hell. Haynesworth doesn't fit.

While there is clearly a difference between what a 3 technique DT will do versus a NT in a 3-4 whatever the gap responsibility I think a better comparison for Haynesworth is the difference between the 3 tech DT and a 5 tech DE as I would think that Al would/will play as much or more DE in our 3-4 front as opposed to NT. I'm interested in your take on that?

I know you asked for his take, but here's mine: He fits better as an end than he does a nose. He has the body type to play nose, sure. But that doesn't necessarily make a good nose tackle. He is too selfish to play in that spot and he's not tough enough. He'd be taking doubles all game long and getting beat up in order for others to make plays. That's not Albert's MO. The way he plays is more like the way a 3-4 end would play. Shoots a gap, draw the block, get through the block and destroy the back/QB. But even there he'll have to suck up his pride and draw double teams and free up backers. His pride will take more of a hit in either spot in the 3-4. Probably another reason why he doesn't like the whole 3-4 idea.

Final point is I disagree with your take on Shannys qualification to make decisions on defensive scheme. I played QB and coached offense and to do either even reasonably well you have to understand defensive schemes and responsibilities to know how an where to attack them. Shanny is clearly far more than an average offensive coach and he spent a lot of his time out studying defensive schemes.

This was my thought as well. You don't have to be a defensive coach to understand the defensive game of football. Just as alot of defensive coordinators could explain alot about the offensive side of the ball.

While I agree 100% with the point you make that a good coach will adjust his scheme to fit the talent he has rather than visa versa I think Shanny and Haslett are far better qualifued to make that call than any poster on here.

Again, I agree. And we also have to remember, this is the NFL. You can get virtually any type of talent you want on a whim, especially in an uncapped year. If you're going to make the switch with a team who doesn't have the right personnel, this is the year to do it.

Let's also remember, we're not even sure how much 3-4 we're going to play. It could be every play. It could be half the plays, 3/4 of the plays, etc.

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I know you asked for his take, but here's mine: He fits better as an end than he does a nose. He has the body type to play nose, sure. But that doesn't necessarily make a good nose tackle. He is too selfish to play in that spot and he's not tough enough. He'd be taking doubles all game long and getting beat up in order for others to make plays. That's not Albert's MO. The way he plays is more like the way a 3-4 end would play. Shoots a gap, draw the block, get through the block and destroy the back/QB. But even there he'll have to suck up his pride and draw double teams and free up backers. His pride will take more of a hit in either spot in the 3-4. Probably another reason why he doesn't like the whole 3-4 idea.

I agree with you he is better suited as an end in a 3-4 scheme not just from a body type but it allows him to make more impact and use his physical skills. I was really trying to get a better handle on how his potential role as a 5 tech DE in a 3-4 would differ from a 3 tech DT in a 4-3.

My thought is depending on gap responsibilities there is not as much difference as some posters are making out. If I diagram a 4-3 under defensive front without putting position labels it would look pretty much identical to a standard 3-4 front.

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I agree with you he is better suited as an end in a 3-4 scheme not just from a body type but it allows him to make more impact and use his physical skills. I was really trying to get a better handle on how his potential role as a 5 tech DE in a 3-4 would differ from a 3 tech DT in a 4-3.

My thought is depending on gap responsibilities there is not as much difference as some posters are making out. If I diagram a 4-3 under defensive front without putting position labels it would look pretty much identical to a standard 3-4 front.

Pretty much, yes. 3-4 DE and 4-3 3 tech are very similar positions.

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Pretty much, yes. 3-4 DE and 4-3 3 tech are very similar positions.

Thats what I was thinking. If we use him correctly and someone can give him a brain transplant he could be the most dominating 3-4 DE in the NFL. Imagine him lined up at RDE in a 3-4 look with Orakpo stood up on his shoulder at ROLB on a passing down. Good luck blocking that.

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Business is business.If He comes in in great shape and works hard all this garbage will be forgiven.If he sacks The Cowpuke QB he will get the keys to DC.

No, that's not true in the least. Please go look at nearly EVERYONE's reaction to Haynesworth in the past few months. It was 60-40 against him, then he took the money and tried to run, and it's 99.99999 - whatever the percentage would be.

This will be neither forgotten nor forgiven until he cures AIDS while saving a an orphanage from a fire and stomping on bin Laden's head after mistaking him for Gurode.

He's the biggest dick in Redskins history. We are supposed to be a team of morals, of anti-divas, of real men, and we have fans defending this piece of ****. It blows my mind.

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Thats what I was thinking. If we use him correctly and someone can give him a brain transplant he could be the most dominating 3-4 DE in the NFL. Imagine him lined up at RDE in a 3-4 look with Orakpo stood up on his shoulder at ROLB on a passing down. Good luck blocking that.

Did you steal that line from "Rudy"? Because it's just as likely.

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I missed this , my apologies.
For what? Hey, if you can reply to all the posts here that you want to, you'll be doing better than me! lol
1- you would be wrong, I know from the old days on extremeskins that there are some extremely knowledgeable fans here and many former players coaches and scouts. I judge on actions and the way that Shanny implemented this switch showed me that he is absolutely clueless when it comes to defence.
With Kdawg and other posters around here, you might have a point. But I'll give the current professionals the benefit of the doubt, till proven otherwise on the field. In what way has Shanahan been "clueless" when it comes to defense?
2- Haslett is known as a motivator and as a rah rah guy, he isnt known as a scheme master or guru, which would be the kind of guy you would want for a switch like this. I havent found anything that showed him ever being the coord of anything more than a 12th ranked D, would you mind showing me where you found that? (not smartass I actually would like to read it.)
Haslett's been the league at least 14 years now, he knows how to implement his own defense. How effective that defense will be for us, will have to be answered on the field. But 14-year coach doesn't know how to implement his own system?

Don't mind you asking sources at all, dude. Should be done more often on message boards, another nice thing here it's the norm rather than exception. Link to our very own Om. "1997 – 6th overall (11th scoring, 18th passing, 1st rushing)"

3- No, the so called justification for this swicth is to make us better NOW, they cant hide the reasoning behind the teams that made a switch to the 3-4 and did better and then say that they need a couple seasons, ESPECIALLY when two absolute studs for the 4-3 were available in Peppers and Kampman THIS YEAR. We added a bust who didnt play at all last year (Carrikker, who I think was a good signing for what we paid) and a guy coming off an injury that ALWAYS takes 2 seasons (maake) both of whom fit the 3-4 better than the 4-3 but maake at least could play in a 4-3 and be effective. Wilson keeps getting mentioned but hes bench fooder. Rak plays better with his hand in the dirt. and at safety we still lack a playmaker cover guy at FS.
All I've read is that Shanny wants to implement to 3-4 just because it's a better system overall, not because we're particularly suited for it now. Peppers = 30 year old DE we'd have to out bid the Bears 6 year $91 mil contract, no thanks. (Wow, someone else's FO is insane) Kampman = another 30 year old and just off injured reserve himself if that's a concern. Never heard of this 2-year rule. For example, Carlos Rogers did well the very next year after knee surgery (2008).With Rak, Carter, and Wilson, we got three guys who are good rushers, maybe we'll use them like the Steelers do their guys, have to see. But unless Moore or Horton steps up (or we go back to Laron-FS Reed-SS), we're lacking a playmaking FS in either 3-4 or 4-3.
That quote btw is absolute garbage, it was said to make Albert look bad, the truth is we have NO options at NT atm so I am unlikley to take Haslett at his word, you need to learn coachspeak lol. he is trying to justify the swap, as if any person with a brain would play Albert at LB, and the matchup over center or a weak guard would come far more often in a 40 than a 30 where he will be on the center the majority of the time.

I will say though it was well played by the skins and poorly played by Albert.

That quote was from an article in February 19, 2010! Before Haynesworthless took the money and tried to run. Why do you say that Haslett is lying or the statement is "garbage"?

Well there's the 3-4 Eagle, where you put an LB at NT. If Haslett runs a lot of 1 gap or some kind of hybrid, you could stick the NT lots of places. Why not over either guard or anywhere between?

Again, the only party that it's proven has lied, is Haynesworthless. He said he'd play wherever it helped the team, it wasn't about the money. Said he'd show up for the 2 mandatories so far and held out instead. Took the bonus and then demanded a trade. We know this through his actions.

Who lied other than Fat ***? And when?

Hail!

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This will be neither forgotten nor forgiven until he cures AIDS while saving a an orphanage from a fire and stomping on bin Laden's head after mistaking him for Gurode.

He's the biggest dick in Redskins history. We are supposed to be a team of morals, of anti-divas, of real men, and we have fans defending this piece of ****. It blows my mind.

lol..... Nice bro! :ols: didn't know you could be so witty! :D

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He's the biggest dick in Redskins history. We are supposed to be a team of morals, of anti-divas, of real men, and we have fans defending this piece of ****. It blows my mind.

It seems that this is the root of all the acrimony from the fanbase, our perception of the Skins is tied up with so much more than merely football. The overwhelming majority of fans appreciate and value that aspect of our history, that we have always been the anti-divas. It is so hard to reconcile this situation with Haynesworth after being treated to an alumni day with players like a Pat Fischer, a Darryl Grant, a Neil Olkewicz or a Gary Clark. There is a shocking moral repugnance to someone taking $21 mil and then wanting to be traded. How dare he offend our sensibilities and our history this way!

But this is about legalities, not moralities. There are no morals in law. There are no churches or charities on a planet of lawyers.

This will be thrashed out by lawyers on both sides, everyone will have to eat some crow, and we will move on from this. Will it ever be forgotten? Hell no, we're still pissed at Dallas for the fight song thing 50 years ago but we'll survive.

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No, that's not true in the least. Please go look at nearly EVERYONE's reaction to Haynesworth in the past few months. It was 60-40 against him, then he took the money and tried to run, and it's 99.99999 - whatever the percentage would be.

This will be neither forgotten nor forgiven until he cures AIDS while saving a an orphanage from a fire and stomping on bin Laden's head after mistaking him for Gurode.

He's the biggest dick in Redskins history. We are supposed to be a team of morals, of anti-divas, of real men, and we have fans defending this piece of ****. It blows my mind.

:ols:Can't argue with that, the damage has been done. While at it he could finally close out the long term peace agreement ending the Arab/Isreali dispute.

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Worth reading when discussing the 3-4 v. 4-3 and Haynesworth role....

http://blogs.nfl.com/2010/06/23/the-...r-haynesworth/

The last time I talked with Albert Haynesworth was on the field before a November game against the Cowboys. Haynesworth didn’t suit up that day because of an ankle issue, but he looked and seemed happy. Maybe $100 million will do that to a man.

The source of Haynesworth’s displeasure with the Redskins this offseason is how he’d be used in the team’s 3-4 scheme under new defensive coordinator Jim Haslett. The switch to the 3-4 is a good idea. The last two Super Bowl winners ran it, as did last season’s best defense, the Jets. It’s here to stay.

Haynesworth is a natural fit as the right defensive end in a 3-4, and putting him at nose tackle would be a mistake. At 6-foot-6, he’s too tall to play in the middle. But he still could beat centers, and I see him as very similar to Kris Jenkins, the centerpiece of the Jets’ 3-4. No center in the league would want to deal with Haynesworth, and he should embrace it if the Redskins put him there.

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