Going against the Mob, somewhat in support of Haynesworth

[Ryman of the North]

Interesting stuff. I'm not clear if we are planning on playing a 3-4 front with a one gap or 2 gap scheme - that would make quite a difference to D'line responsibilities no?

While there is clearly a difference between what a 3 technique DT will do versus a NT in a 3-4 whatever the gap responsibility I think a better comparison for Haynesworth is the difference between the 3 tech DT and a 5 tech DE as I would think that Al would/will play as much or more DE in our 3-4 front as opposed to NT. I'm interested in your take on that?

Final point is I disagree with your take on Shannys qualification to make decisions on defensive scheme. I played QB and coached offense and to do either even reasonably well you have to understand defensive schemes and responsibilities to know how an where to attack them. Shanny is clearly far more than an average offensive coach and he spent a lot of his time out studying defensive schemes.

While I agree 100% with the point you make that a good coach will adjust his scheme to fit the talent he has rather than visa versa I think Shanny and Haslett are far better qualifued to make that call than any poster on here.

actually while a 3 tech is more like the 5tech end its still not the same. a 3 tech has one job, penetrate in the backfield and tear stuff up, avoid double teams and not really worry about lanes as they have a natural lane in the b gap anyway. they have no contain responsability and dont need to set anything. MOST 5 techs need to contain (at the very least they have secondary contain) they need to be able to set the edge as well, this is why guys like Gholston probably wont be very good and why guys like Daniels are (length means ability to hold off blockers and hold ground.)

as for Shannys qualifications, its not overall knowledge that I am annoyed with, the man is brilliant its the nuances and small details that make defences effective and I am positive that he doesnt know them because in my experience most DC's dont either. The ones who do are the ones at the very top of their professions.

[Ryman of the North]

"I know you asked for his take, but here's mine: He fits better as an end than he does a nose. He has the body type to play nose, sure. But that doesn't necessarily make a good nose tackle. He is too selfish to play in that spot and he's not tough enough. He'd be taking doubles all game long and getting beat up in order for others to make plays. That's not Albert's MO. The way he plays is more like the way a 3-4 end would play. Shoots a gap, draw the block, get through the block and destroy the back/QB. But even there he'll have to suck up his pride and draw double teams and free up backers. His pride will take more of a hit in either spot in the 3-4. Probably another reason why he doesn't like the whole 3-4 idea."

I would add that he isnt durable enough and his skill set isnt built for drawing blocks, he bases his game on quickness off the snap and doesnt hold blocks very well, some Dlinemen play a different technique where they literally hold the blocker until the ball carrier commits then shed them, those guys are perfect for a 3-4, some guys like AH use their hands to AVOID blocks, these guys have a tough time moving to any position in a 3-4.

[Ryman of the North]

No, that's not true in the least. Please go look at nearly EVERYONE's reaction to Haynesworth in the past few months. It was 60-40 against him, then he took the money and tried to run, and it's 99.99999 - whatever the percentage would be.

This will be neither forgotten nor forgiven until he cures AIDS while saving a an orphanage from a fire and stomping on bin Laden's head after mistaking him for Gurode.

He's the biggest dick in Redskins history. We are supposed to be a team of morals, of anti-divas, of real men, and we have fans defending this piece of ****. It blows my mind.

No he isnt, hes immature and somewhat of a diva but hes far from the biggest dick we have had on this team and when he does play and plays very well, most people will forget all about this debacle (unless he plays somewhere else and plays well in which case we will never forget lol)

Kevdawg wrote "Again, I agree. And we also have to remember, this is the NFL. You can get virtually any type of talent you want on a whim, especially in an uncapped year. If you're going to make the switch with a team who doesn't have the right personnel, this is the year to do it. "

except that we signed a guy coming off an achilles tear and a couple of end of benchers, not exactly the type of talent we want or need for this scheme.

[Ryman of the North]

Worth reading when discussing the 3-4 v. 4-3 and Haynesworth role....

http://blogs.nfl.com/2010/06/23/the-...r-haynesworth/

The last time I talked with Albert Haynesworth was on the field before a November game against the Cowboys. Haynesworth didn’t suit up that day because of an ankle issue, but he looked and seemed happy. Maybe $100 million will do that to a man.

The source of Haynesworth’s displeasure with the Redskins this offseason is how he’d be used in the team’s 3-4 scheme under new defensive coordinator Jim Haslett. The switch to the 3-4 is a good idea. The last two Super Bowl winners ran it, as did last season’s best defense, the Jets. It’s here to stay.

Haynesworth is a natural fit as the right defensive end in a 3-4, and putting him at nose tackle would be a mistake. At 6-foot-6, he’s too tall to play in the middle. But he still could beat centers, and I see him as very similar to Kris Jenkins, the centerpiece of the Jets’ 3-4. No center in the league would want to deal with Haynesworth, and he should embrace it if the Redskins put him there.

I dont like these quotes where people say " he should embrace it" or " we will move him around to get him in position" its all coachspeak.

the reason I disliked Hasletts quote earlier was what is he gonna say? " albert will be used as a block absorber to get our smaller faster guys in position" or " the entire basis of an effective 3-4 is unpredictability but because we have 2 poor coverage players playing OLB we will be blitzing them every down and that means Albert will have to play very sound football and stay at home or the d wont be sound". Coaches are not noted for honesty, those who are (Buddy Ryan and his kids) are usually very popular with players and not so much with teams.

[MartinC]

actually while a 3 tech is more like the 5tech end its still not the same. a 3 tech has one job, penetrate in the backfield and tear stuff up, avoid double teams and not really worry about lanes as they have a natural lane in the b gap anyway. they have no contain responsability and dont need to set anything. MOST 5 techs need to contain (at the very least they have secondary contain) they need to be able to set the edge as well, this is why guys like Gholston probably wont be very good and why guys like Daniels are (length means ability to hold off blockers and hold ground.)

Thanks - thats useful. I was thinking about who was setting the edge and that might have some impact though that would be scheme and probably individual call dependant (say if the OLB was rushing). It does make a difference though you are right.

I think what I take away from this is that Haynesworth is almost certainly a better fit for a 4-3 both physically and mentally but would also be very effective playing as a 5 tech end in a 3-4. You could move him inside to NT for some snaps as well, mainly to give the offense something to think about and make it harder for them to draw up blocking schemes against him, but it would be silly to have him at NT for the majority of the time.

[grego]

the reason I disliked Hasletts quote earlier was what is he gonna say? " albert will be used as a block absorber to get our smaller faster guys in position" or " the entire basis of an effective 3-4 is unpredictability but because we have 2 poor coverage players playing OLB we will be blitzing them every down and that means Albert will have to play very sound football and stay at home or the d wont be sound". Coaches are not noted for honesty, those who are (Buddy Ryan and his kids) are usually very popular with players and not so much with teams.

i'd have a little more sympathy for him (very little more) had he actually not been the only holdout and showed up to a camp to really find out whats going on. and if he had shown up in shape last year. and not lied about actually using his trainers last year while blaming his conditioning on the skins trainers.

when you do those things (and thats the short list), and your own teammates- former and current are calling you a pig, imo, you dont get the benefit of any doubt.

[Ryman of the North]

i'd have a little more sympathy for him (very little more) had he actually not been the only holdout and showed up to a camp to really find out whats going on. and if he had shown up in shape last year. and not lied about actually using his trainers last year while blaming his conditioning on the skins trainers.

when you do those things (and thats the short list), and your own teammates- former and current are calling you a pig, imo, you dont get the benefit of any doubt.

after listening to several players who have held out hold forth on Haynesworth I tend to view their opinions a bit more cynically now.

[grego]

after listening to several players who have held out hold forth on Haynesworth I tend to view their opinions a bit more cynically now.

to be honest, i havent heard anyone (literally anyone) actually support what he's doing. so while i dont know who these supporters are, i doubt i would take their word over people like fletcher, randle el and mawea. the former 2 are pretty stand up guys, so it would seem.

but even disregarding any players comment, the case for doubting als position is strong for the other reasons i stated in my last post.

[Ryman of the North]

I have oly heard 2 former players say they thought haynesworth was completely wrong, in the main anyone who plays football should probably keep their yaps closed, Ray stabber magee lewis especially, seeing as he whined about the 3-4 a lot and has held out for money before.

[KDawg]

Kevdawg wrote "Again, I agree. And we also have to remember, this is the NFL. You can get virtually any type of talent you want on a whim, especially in an uncapped year. If you're going to make the switch with a team who doesn't have the right personnel, this is the year to do it. "

except that we signed a guy coming off an achilles tear and a couple of end of benchers, not exactly the type of talent we want or need for this scheme.

First, who the hell is Kevdawg?

Doesn't matter. This was the year to make a change if you were going to make one. Adam Carricker isn't an end of bencher. Phillip Daniels can play in the 3-4. Maake, coming off of an injury or not is a solid nose. And we may or may not add more puzzle pieces to the equation.

I don't understand the vitriol other than your own personal experiences with it being negative.

Yes... 3-4 DE do have to look for contain, but even as you yourself pointed out it's usually their second responsibility, but obviously that's also dependent if they're to strength or to the weak side and blitzes called. They are pretty similar to a 4-3 3-tech as a whole. But every position in football is different than the next.

Albert would have been an okay DE in this system, and he would have been pretty damn good when it comes to making plays in the backfield and QB sacks, but he in no way has any business playing contain. He'd probably stub a toe and go out for the season when in pursuit of a play.

[jasjhughes]

First, who the hell is Kevdawg?

Isn't that the kid who was supposed to get th0se starting line up polls out this morning?

[Ryman of the North]

First, who the hell is Kevdawg?

Doesn't matter. This was the year to make a change if you were going to make one. Adam Carricker isn't an end of bencher. Phillip Daniels can play in the 3-4. Maake, coming off of an injury or not is a solid nose. And we may or may not add more puzzle pieces to the equation.

I don't understand the vitriol other than your own personal experiences with it being negative.

Yes... 3-4 DE do have to look for contain, but even as you yourself pointed out it's usually their second responsibility, but obviously that's also dependent if they're to strength or to the weak side and blitzes called. They are pretty similar to a 4-3 3-tech as a whole. But every position in football is different than the next.

Albert would have been an okay DE in this system, and he would have been pretty damn good when it comes to making plays in the backfield and QB sacks, but he in no way has any business playing contain. He'd probably stub a toe and go out for the season when in pursuit of a play.

Lmao sorry trying to do too many things at one time at work.

Carriker was the one decent signing for this who could at least be expected to play right away. Daniels is old and fragile, although he is more suited to a 3-4 than any other lineman on this team and maake is coming off an achilles tear which is the only reason we got him. I sure as heck hope we add some players or its gonna be a loooong season.

as to similiarities, superficially maybe but the truth is its vastly different and its based primarily on techniques. as I said some linemen play more of a hold the line technique where they extend their arms let the lineman engage them, and wait until the carrier commits before shedding, they dont need the explosiveness or quickness and generally rely more on brute strength, these types do well in a 3-4 for the most part. its often overlooked how this affects scheme. Others (Albert and most 3 techs) use speed, quickness and whats called early hands technique to AVOID getting engaged in the first place, some of these guys are good enough to play either way but most have trouble once expected to engage (Robertson from the jets was a case in point for someone who had trouble when expected to engage, very powerful lower body but weaker up top.)

BTW Haynesworth is one of the best Pursuit Dts in the league, go watch some film and you will see quite often he is 30 yards down field chasing the ball, and then people wonder why he was gassed lol. He is easily banged up though so I do agree that hed be better as the attack end than the base end in the 3-4

[THE HAMMER'IN HOG]

As much as Albert is wrong by taking the 21 mil in April if he wanted out, he has a valid point in not wanting to move inside in a 3-4, and how dumb are we to pay a guy the kind of money we are paying AH to be a space eater inside and increase his risk for injury. IMO if we wanted to make this move on defense it should have been with the knowledge that AH would for the majority of his time be crashing the end, and they should have talked to him before they decided to turn things upside down to make sure he was comfortable with the move. Players telling teams they are unwilling to play other positions happens all the time, there are plenty of OL who refuse to attempt to switch to center as one example, the bottom line AH has a legitimate stance on not wanting to move, the Redskins deceived him first not the other way around, but he knowing he didn't want to play the position should have negotiated his way out of his contract before he excepted the 21 mil. now if he wants to give it back I am sure we can accommodate his departure.

[Kindred]

As much as Albert is wrong by taking the 21 mil in April if he wanted out' date=' [b']he has a valid point in not wanting to move inside in a 3-4, and how dumb are we to pay a guy the kind of money we are paying AH to be a space eater inside and increase his risk for injury.[/b] IMO if we wanted to make this move on defense it should have been with the knowledge that AH would for the majority of his time be crashing the end, and they should have talked to him before they decided to turn things upside down to make sure he was comfortable with the move. Players telling teams they are unwilling to play other positions happens all the time, there are plenty of OL who refuse to attempt to switch to center as one example, the bottom line AH has a legitimate stance on not wanting to move, the Redskins deceived him first not the other way around, but he knowing he didn't want to play the position should have negotiated his way out of his contract before he excepted the 21 mil. now if he wants to give it back I am sure we can accommodate his departure.

You seem to be operating under the same ignorance as haynesworth. Considering both of you likely have the same insight since you've both discussed this with haslett about roughly the same amount, I'd say you might be onto something.

I for one will trust our coaches in that they will utilize each player the best way possible, until there are obvious results that they are not doing so.

[grego]

the bottom line AH has a legitimate stance on not wanting to move

i dont know if its a legit stance. you could say its legit in the sense that he wont get as many sacks if he were to play mostly at nose. but then' date=' this was his big payday after a big contract year. you could argue that he's getting paid (paid to play 'less' as mawea, head of the NFLPA said). so whether its unfair financially is debatable (and generally where its said a player is getting ripped off). if he's worried about his stats, you could make an argument.

but this all still depends on whether we totally disregard haslett and shanahans statements about where he's going to be used. we can think they are lying (with nothing really to support that thinking), or we can believe haynesworth when he thinks that he's going to be used primarily or solely as a NT (despite signing maake, whom i know ryman isnt sold on, but appears to be right around the corner from playing). i just choose to believe shanny over big al at this point, with recent events as support for my belief.

the Redskins deceived him first not the other way around,

'decieved' , as in, 'promised him he's be a 3 4 DE (which should have been in a contract since its apparently so important to him- they put lots of other unforeseen type clauses in contracts, so why not that?

and this is assuming you believe al over shanny, which i dont.

[THE HAMMER'IN HOG]

i dont know if its a legit stance. you could say its legit in the sense that he wont get as many sacks if he were to play mostly at nose. but then, this was his big payday after a big contract year. you could argue that he's getting paid (paid to play 'less' as mawea, head of the NFLPA said). so whether its unfair financially is debatable (and generally where its said a player is getting ripped off). if he's worried about his stats, you could make an argument.

but this all still depends on whether we totally disregard haslett and shanahans statements about where he's going to be used. we can think they are lying (with nothing really to support that thinking), or we can believe haynesworth when he thinks that he's going to be used primarily or solely as a NT (despite signing maake, whom i know ryman isnt sold on, but appears to be right around the corner from playing). i just choose to believe shanny over big al at this point, with recent events as support for my belief.

'decieved' , as in, 'promised him he's be a 3 4 DE (which should have been in a contract since its apparently so important to him- they put lots of other unforeseen type clauses in contracts, so why not that?

and this is assuming you believe al over shanny, which i dont.

The problem doesn't lie with the financial part of his deal, it lies with what he was promised when he signed the contract that he would be playing in a 4-3, to change that after 1 year is not really fair to a guy who was promised something else, I haven't heard anyone dispute that so I assume it's correct, I wonder what Portis would have done if after 1 season with us we told him he will now be a blocking back for another feature back? Moving inside is no joke in the NFL. We all know AH should have voiced his opinion before he excepted the 21 mil. but for the coaching staff to just assume the AH would be fine with a significant switch like that is ignorant on their part as well.

As for the first part of your statement, I think it's reasonable to assume that AH had signed his last significant contract when he signed with us, whether he is used inside or out, although I am sure he would like to be around long enough to collect on most of the none guaranteed money as well. AH was used on occasion inside at Tennessee, so stunting the defense is probably not a problem for him, but I haven't heard Shanny come out and say AH will be on the outside with an occasional stunt to the inside, from what I have gathered the plan is to use him quite a bit inside. I just can't understand paying the kind of money we have to AH to be a space eater inside? Over 100 mil for a nose tackle???? I can also understand a player not wanting to play nose tackle, like I said before it ain't no joke on the inside I don't care how big and strong you are, and I really can't see us getting significant value out of him at the nose.

[MartinC]

Moving inside is no joke in the NFL. We all know AH should have voiced his opinion before he excepted the 21 mil. but for the coaching staff to just assume the AH would be fine with a significant switch like that is ignorant on their part as well.

But thats the thing. They did not assume he would be OK with it. Shanny met with him to discuss the move on the 1 day this offseason Al has shown up and talked this all through. Assuming what we have read and heard is true (and it smacks of being true) he gave Al the option if he was not happy with the switch to find a new team OR take the $21M and give his best effort in the new role.

Al took the $21M. He is now legally and morally obligied to provide the services for which he has been paid. Ultimatley I think he will given it looks like he cant afford not to or we will engineer a trade or release which involves us getting back a big part of that $21M and Al signing a new deal with another team to recover whatever he pays us back.

[slaga]

The problem doesn't lie with the financial part of his deal' date=' it lies with what he was promised when he signed the contract that he would be playing in a 4-3, to change that after 1 year is not really fair to a guy who was promised something else, I haven't heard anyone dispute that so I assume it's correct...[/quote']Albert has his preferences but in no way did anyone ever tell him there would be absolutely no chance the Redskins would switch to a 3-4. If Albert hates the 3-4 defense any where near as much as he is letting on, he should have put a clause in his contract. Are the people that made the so called promises that you are speaking of still running the organization? DS is the only one left and he has taken a back seat to Bruce Allen and Shannahan. The entire organization is heading in a new direction and so far I am liking the new scenery. AH seems to be the only player not buying a ticket to see where this road leads.

[SWFLSkins]

But thats the thing. They did not assume he would be OK with it. Shanny met with him to discuss the move on the 1 day this offseason Al has shown up and talked this all through. Assuming what we have read and heard is true (and it smacks of being true) he gave Al the option if he was not happy with the switch to find a new team OR take the $21M and give his best effort in the new role.

Al took the $21M. He is now legally and morally obligied to provide the services for which he has been paid. Ultimatley I think he will given it looks like he cant afford not to or we will engineer a trade or release which involves us getting back a big part of that $21M and Al signing a new deal with another team to recover whatever he pays us back.

Could not have said it any better Martin. Shanny's quote, "he took the check" sums up that notion.

[Campbell's_da_man]

I don't hate fat albert. I want to see him get what he deserves. I say bring him into camp and let him catch up. Put him with the 2nd teamers and watch him work his tail off thru the pre-season games. Then after the final cuts and the 53 man roster is announced, put the 3rd teamer ahead of him.

Let his ass rot that bench and don't let him sniff the field. It's going to be mighty tough trying to be the next Reggie White when he can't play. That worked so well when Gregg Williams pulled that on LaVar Arrington that he couldn't take it, and then he ended up buying his out contract. I didn't like it when they did it to Arrington, but this guy's a real loser here.

If he wants to play ball, let him buy out his contract.

[bedlamVR]

I don't hate fat albert. I want to see him get what he deserves. I say bring him into camp and let him catch up. Put him with the 2nd teamers and watch him work his tail off thru the pre-season games. Then after the final cuts and the 53 man roster is announced' date=' put the 3rd teamer ahead of him.

Let his ass rot that bench and don't let him sniff the field. It's going to be mighty tough trying to be the next Reggie White when he can't play. That worked so well when Gregg Williams pulled that on LaVar Arrington that he couldn't take it, and then he ended up buying his out contract. I didn't like it when they did it to Arrington, but this guy's a real loser here.

If he wants to play ball, let him buy out his contract.[/quote']

Exactly .. well said ... still going on ? :beatdeadhorse:

[Ryman of the North]

But thats the thing. They did not assume he would be OK with it. Shanny met with him to discuss the move on the 1 day this offseason Al has shown up and talked this all through. Assuming what we have read and heard is true (and it smacks of being true) he gave Al the option if he was not happy with the switch to find a new team OR take the $21M and give his best effort in the new role.

Al took the $21M. He is now legally and morally obligied to provide the services for which he has been paid. Ultimatley I think he will given it looks like he cant afford not to or we will engineer a trade or release which involves us getting back a big part of that $21M and Al signing a new deal with another team to recover whatever he pays us back.

except that Albert was already owed that 21 million because the redskins wrote the contract that way. so its like Shannahan saying YOU GIVE US BACK 21 MILLION AND WE WILL TRADE YOU. I would have done the exact same thing Albert did, no thats not true I would have taken the bonus and thensaid ": screw you, thats already MY money, you want to meet halfway then we will but im not gonna be the only one giving up something."

[KDawg]

except that Albert was already owed that 21 million because the redskins wrote the contract that way. so its like Shannahan saying YOU GIVE US BACK 21 MILLION AND WE WILL TRADE YOU. I would have done the exact same thing Albert did, no thats not true I would have taken the bonus and thensaid ": screw you, thats already MY money, you want to meet halfway then we will but im not gonna be the only one giving up something."

And he would have gotten further if he would have done that. But he hasn't.

[Ryman of the North]

And he would have gotten further if he would have done that. But he hasn't.

Yup which is why the thread is titled the way it is. SOMEWHAT in support. lol

[bikie]

except that Albert was already owed that 21 million because the redskins wrote the contract that way. so its like Shannahan saying YOU GIVE US BACK 21 MILLION AND WE WILL TRADE YOU. I would have done the exact same thing Albert did, no thats not true I would have taken the bonus and thensaid ": screw you, thats already MY money, you want to meet halfway then we will but im not gonna be the only one giving up something."

this isn't what pat kirwan, former GM with access to player's contracts, said on sirius radio on wednesday... he read albert's contract and said the 21M bonus was dated and the skins could have gotten out of the contract before april 1st. by cutting him; they went to AH and asked if he was on board, he said he was, took the bonus, and then did not show for the mini-camp, and requested to be traded.

he blamed allen, who is a good friend and was a regular guest on their show last year, for trusting AH after his repeated history of being a scumbag...