msnbc: Army to court martial 'birther' officer

[JMS]

This whole issue of Citizenship is an annoyance of the greatest magnitude. However, saying there is no proof is not all together true. There is proof but the records are sealed and access to them is not possible. I do think that this is a subtle, yet important distinction.

I don't think that's accurate.... There isn't really any proof....

They say he's not a citizen.

Obama produces a birth cirtificate.

They say it's not a birth certificate it's a birth liscense or something.

The governor and atterney general of hawaii say that's what Hawaii issues as legal proof of birth.

they say his he was born in Kenya.

Obama produces a newspaper article from 1963 anouncing his birth in the hospital.

etc etc etc....

I don't really think they've ever introduced any evidence which a first grader couldn't refute pretty easily with an internet connection or a telephone..

[AsburySkinsFan]

Obama produced a Certificate of Live Birth from Hawaii. Such a document would get him a passport.

There are also birth records in Hawaiian newspapers.

There is a school record from Indonesia that lists his birthplace as Hawaii.

What evidence is there that counter-balances this evidence?

Also bearing in mind that the "Certificate of Live Birth" is exactly the same documentation that the Commonwealth of Virginia issues when birth certificate requests are made; I've got mine and mine got me a US Passport someone somewhere along the line must think I'm a natural born citizen.

[JMS]

What evidence is there that counter-balances this evidence?

The Birther's point to an interview with Baraks grandmother saying Barak was born in Kenya..... The obvious loop hole is Barak was named after his father... hello... A statement from an old lady saying Barak was born in kenya could be talking about his dad, or she could just be a nice old lady who's slipping on a few details....

I think their was also some issue about his mother traveling / living in Indonesia before Obama was born... Obama being born there... Response was Obama moved to Indonisia after Obama was born, both his mother and father were students in Hawaii when Obama was born.

Another one I heard was Obama's mother herself wasn't a citizen because she was only 17 or something and hadn't lived in the US long enough to establish citizenship. Problem there is she was born in the US and became a citizen legally upon her birth.

Think there are other objections... I've heard of non with evidence or merit.

[Bliz]

Good. Send him to Leaventworth.

+1. Bigtime.

Birthers will never accept facts. That makes them tough to argue with. It's easier to go down into the echo chamber with them, and play on their opinions of other politicians: If there was any evidence that was humanly possible to uncover, do you think the GOP and Hillary Clinton would have missed it?

This claim has been thoroughly investigated, and found lacking, by extraordinarily talented and connected professionals that make a living finding this type of information. There is no such thing as "sealed" records, when you know the right people, ABQCOWBOY. There is no proof, nothing approaching proof, and there never will be

[zoony]

Good. One less moron in our military. Maybe a few more of these freaks will come forward.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I think the question calls for a legal finding, and I think that shouldn't be that big a deal.

What is a legal finding and how is such a thing done in our court system?

The problem with every one of these birther law suits is that they want the courts to become investigative bodies. They are not. Judges are not James Rockford.

A court cannot make the pronouncement: He is a citizen or He is not a citizen.

So, how do you envision such a hearing taking place and what changes to the American legal system do you recommend to allow such a hearing to take place?

[@DCGoldPants]

my take is this.....if you didn't think the GOP and the last Admin didn't look into this during the election season, you're on crack.

If there was anything remotely worth hanging your hat on, nutjobs like Bachman would be all over it. They know its nothing.....but it doesn't help them to tell folks who are in their base that they are "wrong". Just don't say anything.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

these threads are no fun unless some takes the this guy's side.

Give it time.

EDIT: In the meantime, freerepublic is always good for a laugh on this topic:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2492868/posts

[19Skins72]

Give it time.

EDIT: In the meantime, freerepublic is always good for a laugh on this topic:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2492868/posts

I almost replied to several posts in that FR thread, but the sheer amount of stupidity overwhelmed me

Can one of our resident conservatives point me in the direction of a "safe to view" leftist version of FR? I keep stumbling across wing-nuts online and irl and I need to center myself by reading some leftist craziness - this is my grand plan to maintain my politically independent state of mind =)

[Predicto]

The Birther's point to an interview with Baraks grandmother saying Barak was born in Kenya..... The obvious loop hole is Barak was named after his father... hello... A statement from an old lady saying Barak was born in kenya could be talking about his dad, or she could just be a nice old lady who's slipping on a few details....

Actually, its worse than that. The transcript shows that the grandma explicitly out says that she is talking about the father, not the son - but the birthers leave that part out.

I think their was also some issue about his mother traveling / living in Indonesia before Obama was born... Obama being born there... Response was Obama moved to Indonisia after Obama was born, both his mother and father were students in Hawaii when Obama was born.

There is nothing to suggest that his mother ever left the USA until long after Obama was born.

Another one I heard was Obama's mother herself wasn't a citizen because she was only 17 or something and hadn't lived in the US long enough to establish citizenship. Problem there is she was born in the US and became a citizen legally upon her birth.

And none of that matters if Barack himself was born on American soil.

Think there are other objections... I've heard of non with evidence or merit.

Everyone of them is just made up out of whole cloth by WorldNetDaily or the Post and Email.

[The Evil Genius]

Have you actually seen what Orly Taitz looks like? It has to be wig right?

[Predicto]

I almost replied to several posts in that FR thread, but the sheer amount of stupidity overwhelmed me

You would be banned almost instantly. Only long term Freepers are allowed to disagree with birthers, and even they sometimes get the banhammer.

Can one of our resident conservatives point me in the direction of a "safe to view" leftist version of FR? I keep stumbling across wing-nuts online and irl and I need to center myself by reading some leftist craziness - this is my grand plan to maintain my politically independent state of mind =)

That's easy. Democraticunderground.com

Freeps mirror image.

[Predicto]

Have you actually seen what Orly Taitz looks like? It has to be wig right?

I like this one better.

[Larry]

This whole issue of Citizenship is an annoyance of the greatest magnitude. However, saying there is no proof is not all together true. There is proof but the records are sealed and access to them is not possible. I do think that this is a subtle, yet important distinction.

There is proof, and it was made public two years ago. I do think that is a subtle, and important, fact.

[nonniey]

Have to admit that, if I honestly believed that the guy actually believed what he's claiming, I'd support him.

IMO, it takes a lot of guts to pull the trigger on the kind of big guns this guy could be facing. Refusing to report when ordered for combat operations in a war zone isn't something the military takes lightly.

Problem is, I don't for a second believe that the guy actually believes this doodoo.

Maybe I just have an unjustifiably high opinion of mankind, but I don't for a second believe that there's anybody out there actually that stupid. Certainly not someone who's capable of becoming, somebody said, a Doctor (MD?), and a field-grade officer in the US military.

QUOTE]

You should know by now that people will believe what they want to believe. As for the rank, that is irrelevent. There have been lunatic Generals (one of which recently ran for president) never mind LTCs.

[Larry]

You should know by now that people will believe what they want to believe. As for the rank, that is irrelevent. There have been lunatic Generals (one of which recently ran for president) never mind LTCs.

Well, I, uh, don't think it's quite fair to condemn a whole program because of a single slip-up, sir.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

That's easy. Democraticunderground.com

Freeps mirror image.

Beat me to it. That's definitely the go to for out-of-their-mind lefties.

[ABQCOWBOY]

There is actual evidence that Obama was born in Kenya? That's what the birthers have to show, in order to raise a genuine controversy about the issue. Making up speculations is not evidence.

To put it in lawyer terms - the birthers fail in their burden to create a triable issue of fact upon which a court could rule.

Of course, there is plenty of evidence that Obama was born in Hawaii. But Obama doesn't have to do anything to reinforce that if he doesn't want to. Why should he? He was already certified by the Electoral College and is officially the President. His proving period is done.

All good and well but what does this have to do with my statement? There is evidence on way or the other. It is just sealed.

[ABQCOWBOY]

I don't think that's accurate.... There isn't really any proof....

They say he's not a citizen.

Obama produces a birth cirtificate.

They say it's not a birth certificate it's a birth liscense or something.

The governor and atterney general of hawaii say that's what Hawaii issues as legal proof of birth.

they say his he was born in Kenya.

Obama produces a newspaper article from 1963 anouncing his birth in the hospital.

etc etc etc....

I don't really think they've ever introduced any evidence which a first grader couldn't refute pretty easily with an internet connection or a telephone..

His birth records and educational records are sealed.

[zoony]

why did I know it would be ABQCowboy? :doh:

[ABQCOWBOY]

why did I know it would be ABQCowboy? :doh:

You don't agree that his records are sealed?

[Predicto]

All good and well but what does this have to do with my statement? There is evidence on way or the other. It is just sealed.

Because the question is not whether there is a document somewhere. We all know that there is something, even if only computer records. We've all seen Obama's certificate of live birth, and Hawaii has verified its accuracy.

When you talk about "evidence" in this context, the question is whether the people claiming that there is a controversy (the birthers) have any evidence to make any reasonable person think that they might be on to something and that further investigation is required. If they have no evidence at all, why should anyone pay them any attention?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Or at least some tiny bit of proof. The birthers have nothing - except the fact that they hate Obama and believe every rumor or misconception that they read.

[Predicto]

His birth records and educational records are sealed.

Same as mine and yours and zoonys and everyone else's on here. Yep.

And no, I don't feel like showing them to you. Not even if you claim (without any evidence) that I didn't attend the college and law school that I got my diplomas from. Not even if you claim (without any evidence) that I was born in Uganda and should be deported.

Because you don't have any reasonable basis to believe those things, so the heck with your demands.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Because the question is not whether there is a document somewhere. We all know that there is something, even if only computer records. We've all seen Obama's certificate of live birth, and Hawaii has verified its accuracy.

When you talk about "evidence" in this context, the question is whether the people claiming that there is a controversy (the birthers) have any evidence to make any reasonable person think that they might be on to something and that further investigation is required. If they have no evidence at all, why should anyone pay them any attention?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Or at least some tiny bit of proof. The birthers have nothing - except the fact that they hate Obama and believe every rumor or misconception that they read.

You, and most all others, seem to think that I am trying to make a declarative statement on the validity of the Presidents Birth Status. The point you are trying to prove might be that he has proven his birth status but that, is really not the issue I am making any sort of statement on.

The information is there. It is sealed so to say that there is no proof is inaccurate. Read the post I responded to. I simply said that THAT statement was not accurate.

However, it is interesting how pack mentality seems to come to the front when any perceived question of the validity of President Obama's Birth Status is discussed.

It's silly.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Same as mine and yours and zoonys and everyone else's on here. Yep.

And no, I don't feel like showing them to you. Not even if you claim (without any evidence) that I didn't attend the college and law school that I got my diplomas from. Not even if you claim (without any evidence) that I was born in Uganda and should be deported.

Because you don't have any reasonable basis to believe those things, so the heck with your demands.

Actually, it's not the same but I have no problem with your general statement.

Nice try thou.