msnbc: Army to court martial 'birther' officer

[JMS]

* His kindergarten records

* His Punahou school records

* His Occidental College records

* His Columbia University records

* His Columbia thesis

* His Harvard Law School records

* His Harvard Law Review articles

* His Scholarly articles from the University of Chicago

* His Passport

* His medical records

* His files from when he was an Illinois state senator

* His Illinois State Bar Association records

* His record of Birth (Birth Certificate)

Is there really any point at all to your posts?

Seriously, if I had a problem with his status as a citizen, it would be very clear. I don't but that doesn't change the simple statement that his records are sealed. I'm not a birther. His records are sealed, get over it already.

So this is a great example of the Birther argument.... Where their is smoke their must be fire... Look at all the pieces of information which Obama has sealed. What's he hiding? Who goes around sealing his kindengarden record? Dude must have something to hide...

Course then when you actually go and look at their evidence they are all wrong. Occidental College and Columbia University have both confirmed Obama attended their, holds degrees from them, and specified what those degrees are. Transcripts can only be obtained at the request of the student. Just like any other student. They aren't sealed, and they have no baring on any citizenship argument I've ever heard.

Theisis at Columbia.... Far as I can tell, it's not sealed either. It's thirty years old, it wasn't a formal theisis, and nobody kept a copy. Not the school, the teacher, or Obama himself.

His record of Birth (Birth Certificate).... Obama released his "certificate of live birth"... Two which the birthers cryed fowl, that's not your birth cirtificate. Too which the governor of Hawaii and the atterney General of that state released statements saying that's what Hawaii uses for a birth certificate. If you ask for a birth certificate that's what they give you. It's legally the equivalent of a birth certificate.... Any citizen born in hawaii for the last 40 years could also confirm this... To which the birthers ignore the statement and exclaim something about the original state's record is not open to the public... yada yada yada... Evidence bares no weight in the discussion. The birthers ignore all evidence which refutes their assertions.

Basically the birther's argument is to call something into question, then when they are given the evidence which refutes that question; to ignore it and pretend nobody corrected their missinformation.

I personally love a good conspiracy theory. I find it interesting to proove them or disprove them. The Birther's conspiracy theories seem to be more like a bernie ebbers financial scandal. Poorly thought out and dependent upon sophmoric tactics rather than honest investigation or debate. I've not come across any which stood up against just superficial investigation. It's like whack a mole though.... They are convinced of X... then when you disprove X they move on to W,Z and Q. They always have another theory which they throw out.

[Larry]

The paper in question, whether you call it a thesis as some are, or not is not sealed. After 30 years nobody has a copy of it... not the school, not the teacher, and not Obama.

Just pointing out that your second sentence says that your first sentence is untrue.

Y'know, when I was in grade school, I wrote a paper about Beethoven. I don't have a copy of it, either.

This obviously proves that I'm not a US citizen, and can never be President.

[JMS]

Just pointing out that your second sentence says that your first sentence is untrue.

I don't understand what your are saying.. please explain where you think I'm controdicting myself. Did you misread my prose?

Y'know, when I was in grade school, I wrote a paper about Beethoven. I don't have a copy of it, either.

I wrote several papers in graduate school during my senior years. I didn't keep any of them either.

This obviously proves that I'm not a US citizen, and can never be President.

Fact is when I was in school in Boston, I went to the BU library and read Martin Luther King's thesis for his phd. Some schools keep students papers, evidently Columbia isn't one of them....

That being said, I'm pretty sure no reall american would write a paper on Beethoven.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Being a birther apologist is only marginally better than being a birther. But since you asked so nicely, here is Obama's "sealed" article from the Harvard Law Review.

Don't ask how I got it. The Feds might be monitoring :paranoid:

And you see, the sky didn't fall and I didn't resign my membership here.

It's not that big of a deal, really.

[ABQCOWBOY]

So this is a great example of the Birther argument.... Where their is smoke their must be fire... Look at all the pieces of information which Obama has sealed. What's he hiding? Who goes around sealing his kindengarden record? Dude must have something to hide...

Course then when you actually go and look at their evidence they are all wrong. Occidental College and Columbia University have both confirmed Obama attended their, holds degrees from them, and specified what those degrees are. Transcripts can only be obtained at the request of the student. Just like any other student. They aren't sealed, and they have no baring on any citizenship argument I've ever heard.

Theisis at Columbia.... Far as I can tell, it's not sealed either. It's thirty years old, it wasn't a formal theisis, and nobody kept a copy. Not the school, the teacher, or Obama himself.

His record of Birth (Birth Certificate).... Obama released his "certificate of live birth"... Two which the birthers cryed fowl, that's not your birth cirtificate. Too which the governor of Hawaii and the atterney General of that state released statements saying that's what Hawaii uses for a birth certificate. If you ask for a birth certificate that's what they give you. It's legally the equivalent of a birth certificate.... Any citizen born in hawaii for the last 40 years could also confirm this... To which the birthers ignore the statement and exclaim something about the original state's record is not open to the public... yada yada yada... Evidence bares no weight in the discussion. The birthers ignore all evidence which refutes their assertions.

Basically the birther's argument is to call something into question, then when they are given the evidence which refutes that question; to ignore it and pretend nobody corrected their missinformation.

I personally love a good conspiracy theory. I find it interesting to proove them or disprove them. The Birther's conspiracy theories seem to be more like a bernie ebbers financial scandal. Poorly thought out and dependent upon sophmoric tactics rather than honest investigation or debate. I've not come across any which stood up against just superficial investigation. It's like whack a mole though.... They are convinced of X... then when you disprove X they move on to W,Z and Q. They always have another theory which they throw out.

So then, are trying to say that I AM a Birther?

[JMS]

So then, are trying to say that I AM a Birther?

Not at all. You posted a Birther Argument, and I responded on the merits of the Birther argument you posted.

You've already said you were not a birther. I think you are familiar with their discussion points and have been playing devils advocate a little in this thread, as have I. You've also stated you aren't that emotional about it one way or the other...

Seriously though for the point of this discussion, it doesn't matter.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Not at all. You posted a Birther Argument, and I responded on the merits of the Birther argument you posted.

You've already said you were not a birther. I think you are familiar with their discussion points and have been playing devils advocate a little in this thread, as have I. You've also stated you aren't that emotional about it one way or the other...

Seriously though for the point of this discussion, it doesn't matter.

OK. As I read your post, it was not clear to me. I will tell you what I think of this whole thing.

I believe that we should let this whole thing die. Not for the same reasons that many on the Left would support but because I think that it only makes the Right look stupid. We should just walk away from this entire argument.

There are way more important issues that we can make good strong political arguments over but this is not one of them.

This, to me, is something that I could see coming from the Left during the GHB or GWB days. It's petty and I think, beneath us. Too many important things going on in our Country. We should be about the business of fighting those battles.

I do, however, think it's interesting how the Left defends this issue at the drop of a hat. They are the first to ridicule and tell anybody who would listen to let it go but they, themselves will not take there own advice. It's an interesting thing to watch.

[JMS]

I believe that we should let this whole thing die. Not for the same reasons that many on the Left would support but because I think that it only makes the Right look stupid.

Here is the thing... It's not stupid. The people making these arguments aren't stupid. They are quite creative.

Their fundimental issue isn't a lack of intelligence, or even a lack of knowledge. Their fundimental issue is that they don't trust the government, nor newspapers, nor history books, nor anybody or anything who would refute their talking points. Thus their arguments are self perpetuating and there is no way to refute/address their arguments which they would find convincing. The mear attempt to disagree with them, they find as conformation you don't know what you are talking about.

Quote the NY Times, Washington Post, COB, Governor of Hawaii, or any number of mainstream sources and they just roll their eyes at you.

Winston Churchill once said, a fanatic was a person who was both not open to discussion, and unable to change the subject. That's what the Birthers are. Fanatics. Popularists, which make them attractive to the GOP, but also fanatics non the less.

America has a long history of such movments...

Father Conclin

Huey Long

There are way more important issues that we can make good strong political arguments over but this is not one of them.

I think the Republicans are happy to have the Birthers and the Tea Baggers ( who have some of the same issues), muddying up the waters. I think its an attempt to obfuscate the issues and the history which the GOP thinks work for them.

These groups have their own sources (hanity, rush, the free republic, etc), which are studied and memorized but aren't respected my mainstream or moderate Americans..

I do, however, think it's interesting how the Left defends this issue at the drop of a hat. They are the first to ridicule and tell anybody who would listen to let it go but they, themselves will not take there own advice. It's an interesting thing to watch.

Bottom line is the critics of Bush had real issues which pretty much universally turned out to be valid.

These tea baggers and birthers really don't...

Are there left wing fanatics who went after GW. Certainly. But I think their basic core issues were not manufactured or rooted in fantasy. Some of their solutions were, but not their core issues. GW did lie to involve us in the Iraq war, he did torture people, he did run secret prison camps where he kidnapped, detain, and abused people external from our judicial system; including US citizens... All pretty incredible facts when they were first exposed.

[Ken]

What specifically is sealed?

You can't name it' date=' can you?[/quote']

To put this ridiculous assertion to rest:

Obama's (Soetoro) FIRST MOVE as PRESIDENT WAS THIS PRESIDENTIAL EXECUTIVE ORDER....k?

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/ExecutiveOrderPresidentialRecords

Any questions on this?

FIRST MOVE.....

[ABQCOWBOY]

Here is the thing... It's not stupid. The people making these arguments aren't stupid. They are quite creative.

Their fundimental issue isn't a lack of intelligence, it's that they don't trust the government, nor newspapers, nor anybody who tells them they are wrong. Thus their arguments are self perpetuating and there is no way to address their arguments which they will listen too. Winston Churchill once said, a fanatic was a person who was both not open to discussion, and unable to change the subject. That's what the Birthers are. Fanatics. Popularists, which make them attractive to the GOP, but also fanatics non the less.

I can agree with the premise of this statement. I even think you make good sense here but, in the end, take stock of what is to be gained and lost. The GOP stands to lose much more then it will ever gain in these efforts. There may or may not be something there but nobody is ever going to know, one way or the other, until long after President Obama is out of office. It's not a battle you can win and as such, foolish to fight. It only cost resources and that's not smart. JMO

I think the Republicans are happy to have the Birthers and to a lesser extent the Tea Baggers, muddying up the waters. I think its an attempt to obfuscate the issues and the history. None of which these groups find relavent because they don't read or value the sources which document such things. They have their own sources, which are studied and memorized but aren't respected my mainstream or moderate Americans..

I would not categorize the Tea Party movement along with the Birthers because I believe that would be a major mistake. The GOP may be happy with the efforts the Birthers are putting forth but I don't think so. I'll tell you something here. The real problem this country faces, and you actually touched on it already, is the fact that we do not trust our own Government at this point in history. If the people trusted the President, it wouldn't matter what the Health Care Plan costs. The people would support it. I believe that the GOP is going to take back a lot of what was lost in the last election and that trend, I believe will continue into 2012. However, they are going to face the same issue the Democrats face now. They must win back the people and in order to do that, they can't play politics. They must do good work for the people and they must not continue along the same path both sides have followed for the better part of the last 20 years. We can't be involved in this kind of nonsensical behavior. We must be serious about fixing the problems of this Country IMO.

Bottom line is the critics of Bush had real issues which pretty much universally turned out to be valid.

These tea baggers and birthers really don't...

Before I comment on this, I would have to understand why you see the criticisms of Bush as "real" and the Tea Party as invalid. Birthers are a different story. They have no case IMO but I would also point out that there were a great many during the Bush years that also had no case.

Are were left wing fanatics who went after GW. Certainly. But I think their basic core issues were not manufactured or rooted in fantasy. Some of their solutions were, but not their core issues. GW did lie to involve us in the Iraq war, he did torture people, he did run secret prison camps where he kidnapped, detain, and abused people external from our judicial system... All pretty incredible facts when they were first exposed.

It's called War and none of what you have mentioned above is unique behavior in War. Now, you can say that he lied but there is no proof that I know of, that links him to a lie. He acted on intelligence that was provided by outside sources. He had support, based on the information provided by these sources, to act. If you want to say that he didn't need to wage war in Iraq, I can see the argument there. I don't necessarily agree with it but I can at least see it. Not so much with Afghanistan.

I'm going to step out for lunch here. I'll check back on this discussion when I return.

Cheers

[Bucaro]

Keep grasping at straws Ken despite the fact all of your assertions have been repeatedly dismantled. You look dumber with every post

[SnyderShrugged]

To put this ridiculous assertion to rest:

Obama's (Soetoro) FIRST MOVE as PRESIDENT WAS THIS PRESIDENTIAL EXECUTIVE ORDER....k?

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/ExecutiveOrderPresidentialRecords

Any questions on this?

FIRST MOVE.....

hmmm? that is a little troubling to be honest. I didnt know that was his first EXO. Was there anything said about why he felt the need to pass that one so quickly?

It actually almost seems more of a Bush protection than for himself though

[JMS]

To put this ridiculous assertion to rest:

Obama's (Soetoro) FIRST MOVE as PRESIDENT WAS THIS PRESIDENTIAL EXECUTIVE ORDER....k?

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/ExecutiveOrderPresidentialRecords

Any questions on this?

FIRST MOVE.....

Actually Obama's first act as President was to create a 120 day suspension for the trials of suspected terrorists at Gitmo.

His first act as president underscored the expected departure from former President George W. Bush's policies. One day after being sworn in, a military judge approved the Obama administration's request for a 120-day halt to the terror trials taking place at Guantanamo Bay, pending review by the president himself.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/01/20/national/inauguration09/main4741434.shtml?source=mostpop_story

The presidential act you quote isn't new. Presidents always have the final say when to release their own presidential documents, and those decisions are always coordinated with the existing administration for national security reasons. Nixon kept his documents for decades, and they were finally released only upon his death by his famility.

This order has nothing to do with documents existing prior to Obama's election as president. Are you suggesting it does?

[Bucaro]

It was done to REVERSE Bush's order and provide MORE transparancy of presidential records. This is from a conservative website (notice how they say they were wrong but still try to fan the flames of conspiracy wackjobs):

UPDATE: At the time this post was published it appears as though we may have been misinterpreting the section of US Code covered by this Executive Order. While this EO may not necessarily cover Obama’s birth certificate, the question raised in the post still applies. Why, with everything going on at the time, was this one of Obama’s first orders of business?

[Ken]

No there isn't. You appear unable to distinguish between "fact" and "something someone on the internet said."

I believe it is quite the opposite. I pointed to tangible evidence of why he is an Indonesian Citizen. I have also pointed to the tangible evidence that Barry Soetoro was listed in the divorce proceedings of his parents.

What have you provided to prove that Barrack is a natural born Citizen? There is a reason why there are 30 active lawsuits against Barry and its not because he's provide legal proof of a Natural Hawaiin Birth....

If you have this certificate, please....let's see it, otherwise you are the one dealing in what someone else on the internet said.

Thanks.

It is a jumble of nonsense. Try and find an example of ONE American citizen child, ever, who lost their American citizenship while a child because their mother remarried a foreigner. It does not work that way.

There isn't, but try and find one president who couldn't prove he was born in the US. Forget the fact that Barry's father was a Kenyan citizen during his birth which was a British Commonwealth country. So Barry doesn't even meet the criteria to have BOTH parents Citizens of the US. Still waiting to see any proof that Barrack was born in Hawaii.....

Berg creates a mountain of nonsense based on his clueless interpretation of what he imagines Indonesian law to be - but Indonesian law is completely irrelevant. Indonesia cannot tell the United States who is or is not a United States Citizen.

Can they hold dual citizenship if both countries don't agree? Didn't think so...

Can they run for president if they were born in Kenya? (I have seen evidence of his Grandmother stating this, the Ambassador of Kenya, and Michelle 'Soetoro' stating Kenya was his homeland.) Michelle Soetoro also stated that Barry was adopted by his stepfather. How does that change things Mr. Lawyer?

A child who is a United States Citizen CANNOT renounce his or her citizenship until they are an adult, and considered intellectually capable of doing so, and do so either by actively renouncing it as an adult, or by refusing to return to the USA past their 25th birthday. Their parents alone cannot deprive them of their citizenship. It is personal to them.

Period.

Even if they were adopted by a citizen of another country? What if they were never born in the US to begin with?

Immigration and Nationality Act, Title III, Chapter 3, section 349 (a).

Immigration and Nationality Act, Title III, Chapter 3, Section 355.

Anyone with the reading and critical thinking skills of a baboon can see that Berg is just throwing stuff against the wall hoping that something will stick.

Completely made up. Indonesia has literally millions of Chinese workers and shopkeepers and their families. They are not citizens. Their children go to school.

I think you may be thinking about NOW which is MUCH different then then....no?

Berg is confusing a positive passage in the Indonesian Constitution with a negative law that does not exist.

The Indonesian constitution says,: "All citizens have the right to life, liberty and an education blah blah blah."

From this, Berg INFERS that "Indonesian Law says no one who is not a citizen may attend school in Indonesia." That kind of legal reasoning has a name. It is called "bad lawyering."

The tangible evidence of his student record from Indonesia show his name to be Barry Soetoro, His CITIZENSHIP to be INDONESIAN, and his faith to be ISLAM.

Any questions?

BTW, Berg has worked with a law firm from Indonesia to gain these types of documents and historical facts regarding the case. Have you?

Reading and falling for such an analysis on an internet website also has a name. It is called "gullibility."

You cannot verify it as true because it is false. There was a travel advisory, nothing more.

Bravo...I have already given you this fact and it is inconsequential to everything else that is stated....namely where he was born, that he at best has dual citizenship, that he is ineligible to be president because both parents were not citizens, and he is just a complete fraud.

You really are a gullible fellow. What documents might you be referring to. I have looked at the website, and none of the "documents" there have any significance to this argument. In other words, what is the point of waving around "documents" if they don't MEAN what you claim that they mean?

Well, the fact that we have his student record from Indonesia that list him as a Citizen. The fact that we have the divorce decree that lists him as Barry Soetoro. The fact that Barry has not produced a valid birth certificate from the easiest place in the world to get one from. That all we have are pictures of a birth certificate that you seem to think are valid "documents".

Essentially, Ken, when you say "the law I have seen says..." what you really mean is "something someone on the internet claims is something that I now accept as true even though I don't understand it."

I certainly don't have a law degree such as yourself, but I do know bs when I see it. He is completely full of crap about his background and we have him as President. Something that I find to be completely disgusting.

If you are ok with it though....maybe we should just not ask for proof. One thing is for sure, he will not be able to run for re-election if he doesn't prove it because more than one state has passed resolutions to require (AZ) proof of qualification to be president to run in their states. Wonder why that came about??????

[JimboDaMan]

hmmm? that is a little troubling to be honest. I didnt know that was his first EXO. Was there anything said about why he felt the need to pass that one so quickly?

It actually almost seems more of a Bush protection than for himself though

What would trouble you? It removes some of the secrecy Bush gave to the Presidency.

[SnyderShrugged]

What would trouble you? It removes some of the secrecy Bush gave to the Presidency.

I think I must have misread it. Let me reread and then answer.

In reading it again, I can say that first, you are right, its not as troubling as I first thought.

But also I have trouble seeing why the EO was necessary at all. It really doesnt do much at all for transparency, it seems to just add more discretion up to asst atty general and the archivist.

[Dan T.]

Predicto? Time to play Whack-A-Mole again.

[Larry]

I don't understand what your are saying.. please explain where you think I'm controdicting myself. Did you misread my prose?

Yes, I did. I thought you said that the paper was sealed.

[DCranon21]

I believe it is quite the opposite. I pointed to tangible evidence of why he is an Indonesian Citizen. I have also pointed to the tangible evidence that Barry Soetoro was listed in the divorce proceedings of his parents.

I stopped reading after this. I felt like I stepped into a Free Republic or WND time warp. Didn't Predicto debunk this in a thread before? Let me go find that thread.

[Ken]

It was done to REVERSE Bush's order and provide MORE transparancy of presidential records. This is from a conservative website (notice how they say they were wrong but still try to fan the flames of conspiracy wackjobs):

UPDATE: At the time this post was published it appears as though we may have been misinterpreting the section of US Code covered by this Executive Order. While this EO may not necessarily cover Obama’s birth certificate, the question raised in the post still applies. Why, with everything going on at the time, was this one of Obama’s first orders of business?

What exactly is your point? Why does he need to REVERSE MORE TRANSPARENCY WHEN THAT IS WHAT HE RAN ON...TRANSPARENCY??????

Did you read this EO? It covers everything....i don't know how anyone could determine it to mean anything other than that....

I'm dumb?.......

EDIT:

Sorry misinterpreted your post....it CLEARLY locks everything down.

[Ken]

Predicto? Time to play Whack-A-Mole again.

Why don't you take a crack at it....

?

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

To put this ridiculous assertion to rest:

Obama's (Soetoro) FIRST MOVE as PRESIDENT WAS THIS PRESIDENTIAL EXECUTIVE ORDER....k?

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/ExecutiveOrderPresidentialRecords

Any questions on this?

FIRST MOVE.....

That's an act referring to his presidential records.

It has nothing to do with his personal records.

But you knew that.

[Larry]

I do, however, think it's interesting how the Left defends this issue at the drop of a hat. They are the first to ridicule and tell anybody who would listen to let it go but they, themselves will not take there own advice. It's an interesting thing to watch.

Ah, the next Birther Defense.

Birther spouts birther BS

Rational person points out that it's BS.

Birther: Well, you sure ran out there to point out that I'm spreading BS. Must prove that you've got something to hide. How come all you anti-Birthers just won't let this drop?

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

So then, are trying to say that I AM a Birther?

You certainly know all the birther arguments and talking points. And you seem pretty open to them.

So...no...it would be unfair to classify you as a birther.