msnbc: Army to court martial 'birther' officer

[ABQCOWBOY]

My two cents on this current interaction between posters: there might be a legitmate argument here as to aspects of argumentative style and the topic at hand between P, LKB, and ABQ. That can be reasonably debated among the players. I have mucho appreciation for all three of you in different manner and also no hesitation stating when and if I feel otherwise. As the three of you know, I expect.

So fwiw. I had typed this a few minutes ago and then held it back, now I'll go ahead:

Now totally separate from whether I agree with whoever about whatever (and it isn't ABQ :pfft:) in this overall discussion, or any other, I (as an ES member who often disagrees with his positions from what I've seen to date---of course I disagree with most everyone ) would prefer ABQ remain posting in the forum.

You boys carry on.

Thank you Jumbo. Very much appreciated.

You, amigo, are a hard act to follow.

[ABQCOWBOY]

If you guys would like to discuss this thing, I am happy to do it. I will not engage in the ridiculous because honestly, what's to be gained? You only come away dumber for the effort.

I acknowledge the fact that I do not make it easy to argue. There is a reason for that. I honestly do not like to argue. It is fairly pointless in most cases. Honest discussion is much more rewarding for me. Some of you know that I MOD a board as well. I get plenty of argument there. The last thing that I want to do when I come to this board is argue. That's probably a strange concept coming from a Cowboy Fan, while posting on a Redskins board. It is, however, true.

Ask me what you will, if you care to, on the subject and I will answer honestly. We can discuss it from there. It is a pointless discussion, IMO, but I will do it if you like.

[Predicto]

edit - removed in respect for Jumbo's post.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Yes. You say this all the time.

It's another way that you avoid making substantive responses to substantive points.

OK, so what is it that you would like to discuss on the matter? Do you have a question that you would like me to answer or a point you would like to discuss?

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Now you need to live up to your chosen burden. Neither guy you're talking too is anything other than very smart and generally very fair in discussion (though LBK can be quite the dip**** at times, usually in a lovable snarky manner).

That's LKB to you.

And I don't know if my snarky manner is necessarily lovable. It's fairly obnoxious at times.

[Predicto]

OK, so what is it that you would like to discuss on the matter? Do you have a question that you would like me to answer or a point you would like to discuss?

Nope. I guess we are done here. I apologize if I gave offense.

I get frustrated with certain styles of discussion, I guess.

For what it is worth, I do not think you are a birther. There is no reason to keep discussing this silliness until Ken comes back and I lose all control once again. :laugh:

[Predicto]

That's LKB to you.

And I don't know if my snarky manner is necessarily lovable. It's fairly obnoxious at times.

Obnoxious?

Nah. Sad and pathetic is more like it.

[War Paint]

Okay, I would first like to say that I have no stance on the Birther issue. I assume that Obama was born in Hawaii. However, I don't see why birthers are considered kooks. I've never seen any overwhelming evidence that shows Obama being a foreigner, but I haven't seen any overwhelming evidence that he was born in the states. To my knowledge, he's never provided access to his original birth certificate.

Here is a recent video of Michelle Obama a few weeks ago. She was addressing a crowd of homosexuals about AIDS. Listen at the 40-50 second mark. She says her and Barack got back from a trip to Africa, where they visited "Barack's home country of Kenya". Was it a freudian slip? Did she mean something else?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLDHDfPNBME

I'm not saying that this is proof Obama isn't a natural born citizen, but if you look at the topic without bias, you can see why some people are out there questioning his citizenship. It's stuff like this which fuels the fire.

[ABQCOWBOY]

Nope. I guess we are done here. I apologize if I gave offense.

I get frustrated with certain styles of discussion, I guess.

For what it is worth, I do not think you are a birther. There is no reason to keep discussing this silliness until Ken comes back and I lose all control once again. :laugh:

Fair enough. I will tell you this. As I am certain it is probably clear to everybody, I do not agree with much of our President's policy but, I am not one how believes that any President should be disrespected. I didn't like it when it was done to GWB and I am not in favor of it with President Obama. Discuss his policies, argue your points, agree to disagree, all of that is OK. I am not one who believes in this whole birther thing, I don't believe he is a Manchurian and I don't think he's here to eat our children. I do think he's very left, I do think he has socialist ideas and I do think that he is not above hard ball politics to force policy.

At the end of the day, I don't trust most politicians and that goes for the last President as well as this one.

I have no hard feelings with you or anybody else. We have different political views and it's natural that we have opposing view points. That's not a bad thing.

[Dan T.]

I'll give "links" and amend my statement to read "many on the 911 commission felt mislead and doubt the official story" [followed by random links.]

Translation: I got caught spouting bull**** so let me throw some other bull**** out there.

[Predicto]

Okay, I would first like to say that I have no stance on the Birther issue. I assume that Obama was born in Hawaii. However, I don't see why birthers are considered kooks. I've never seen any overwhelming evidence that shows Obama being a foreigner, but I haven't seen any overwhelming evidence that he was born in the states. To my knowledge, he's never provided access to his original birth certificate.

He has provided certificate of live birth from Hawaii, verified as accurate by Hawaii officials - that isn't enough? Newspaper announcements in Honolulu newspapers a few days after the birth aren't enough?

What is your burden of proof?

Here is a recent video of Michelle Obama a few weeks ago. She was addressing a crowd of homosexuals about AIDS. Listen at the 40-50 second mark. She says her and Barack got back from a trip to Africa, where they visited "Baracks home country of Kenya". Was it a freudian slip? Did she mean something else?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLDHDfPNBME

She was speaking of his heritage. His father was from Kenya.

I'm not saying that this is proof Obama isn't a natural born citizen, but if you look at the topic without bias, you can see why some people are out there questioning his citizenship. It's stuff like this which fuels the fire.

The only way you can possibly fall for the birther nonsense is if you come into the question WITH bias, and then search for ambiguous clues that might reinforce that preconception. Stuff like this will only fuel the fire if that is the answer that you want to find.

Glenn Beck says the birthers are idiots. So does Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Ann Coulter, Michelle Malkin, Michael Medved, etc. So does John McCain, Lindsey Graham, even Sarah Palin.

Only fringe people believe this.

[ABQCOWBOY]

It's never ending.

[Ken]

This is Berg's third eligibility lawsuit against Obama. The first two were dismissed.

Ok, doesn't make my statement untrue.

Birther myth. It was not possible for foreigners to get a Certificate of Live Birth that said "Born In Honolulu" on it.

Many native Hawaiians have stated otherwise in interviews and the policy has been changed since Obama was born.

Birthers point to a fake certificate of chinese leader Sun Yat Sen, but that was issued in 1911, when Hawaii was still a kingdom. Obama was born when Hawaii was a full fledged American state, and American states do not issue people birth certificates that say anything that they want on them.

I have not seen this (sen certificate) but I will have to look into it.

Why? Hawaii says that his certificate is valid and is the only kind they issue. My kids just got their passports using their certificates of live birth from California.

Yes but you and your wife are both Citizens of the US and your kids are not trying to become the President at this moment. There is a clear history that can be traced for your kids. Obama's is incredibly dubious at best. This guy could not be qualified to be in the Secret Service with his background let alone be protected by them.

The article is from WorldNetDaily, and completely misreads those cases. I would go through it with you in detail, but it would be a waste of time. So lete me refer you to a recent appellate decision that does it for me. Pages 12-18 are particularly instructive.

http://www.in.gov/judiciary/opinions/pdf/11120903.ebb.pdf

Neither of which birthers have the slightest clue about.

What is wrong with WND? It was written by one of your peers, not just any joe schmoe... When I used to use WND to call into question GWB presidential decisions, the site was derided as a far left loon site. Now that the left is in play, is it far right?

I suppose law can be interpreted in many ways, hence why your profession exists....

I have read the entire link you provided and it certainly goes into the issue of Natural Born Citizen at some length. I believe the slant is mostly to support the original finding of not finding sufficient evidence that the governor failed in his responsibility with issuing Certificates of Ascertainment for the presidential candidates.

It also puts a lot of weight on how the British interpreted Natural Born Citizen which supports the judges viewpoint. The other thing is I don't have access to the Plaintiff's case, but it sounds like it was based on flimsy evidence if it is references internet sites like politico...

Barack Obama is almost 50 years old, and this unremarkable birth to a not famous mother was not attended by angels and the celestial choir. It is very likely that the doctor who delivered him and thousands of other babies didn't remember the event a week later, and even more likely that this doctor is long dead.

Is it public knowledge where exactly he was born? My understanding is it is not known...

I'm 36 and know the name of the Doctor who delivered me...did that much change in 14 years?

No. My mother in law has dual American and Irish citizenship. My daughter's friend has dual Spanish and American citizenship. My daughter's friend Michael has dual Argentian and American citizenship.

More importantly, I've already shown you the specific law that provides that American children cannot lose their citizenship unless they 1) disown it as adults, or 2) refuse to return to the US by the age of 25. You have ignored that law and continued to repeat yourself.

While legal, it is not recommended, yet the president of our USA very likely is of dual citizenship.

U.S. State Department's Foreign Affairs Manual discusses problems associated with dual citizenship:

7 FAM 081: U.S. Policy on Dual Nationality:

(e)While recognizing the existence of dual nationality, the U.S. Government does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause. Dual nationality may hamper efforts by the U.S. Government to provide diplomatic and consular protection to individuals overseas. When a U.S. citizen is in the other country of their dual nationality, that country has a predominant claim on the person.

It tells me that catering to people who hate Obama is always a safe political position for a Republican to take these days.

Well, it tells me that not even his own party believes that he is a natural Born Citizen of the US. Why else would they not vote for it? This is not a partisan issue...

You can believe what you want apparently. Reality is different.

Admittedly, I didn't know as much about this issue as I do some others. My feeling is that he is hiding something. I feel like the evidence has not been sufficiently brought forth to prove that Obama was born in the US. Why is it that we had congressional hearings on whether or not Mccain was a natural born citizen but we never touch the subject in regards to Soetoro who has many moving parts in his background and came on the scene out of nowhere, relatively speaking?

[Ken]

Ok. Let me ask you this.

If you have respect for my profession, why is it that the only members of my profession who are willing to pursue birther cases are not respected members of my profession.

Orly Taitz - dentist with a law degree from correspondence school who never tried a case before she became a birther.

Leo Donofrio - professional poker player, part time lawyer. He believes that he is being stalked by federal agents in yellow hazmat suits.

Charles Lincoln III - disbarred for fraud, this former attorney was Orly Taitz's paralegal, ghostwrites her filings (and had an affair with her).

Mario Apuzzo - New Jersey DUI lawyer.

Philip Berg - 9/11 truther.

John Heminway - nearly 90 year old attorney who came out of retirement to be a birther.

Andy Martin - passed the bar but was not admitted to legal practice because of mental instability. Ran for Senate in Illinois on a platform of "stop the Jewish conspiracy."

These are your lawyers. Why do you think, of the hundreds of thousands of successful conservative lawyers out there with a huge interest in having Barak Obama disgraced and removed from office, none of them are willing to take these cases? Why do none of them interpret the constitution the way birthers do? Why is that?

Because they are not crackpots. They know real legal analysis from fake. They know that this is nonsense.

This is certainly good information to know. Thank you.

Berg was also Assistant Attorney General for Pennsylvania. Just because he doesn't believe the Official Theory, doesn't make him an idiot.

I honestly don't know anything about the others but will keep this in mind.

[Larry]

Okay, I would first like to say that I have no stance on the Birther issue. I assume that Obama was born in Hawaii. However, I don't see why birthers are considered kooks. I've never seen any overwhelming evidence that shows Obama being a foreigner, but I haven't seen any overwhelming evidence that he was born in the states.

You mean, other than the official, certified, state-issued, legally binding, documentation, which both the Governor of the state, and the Cabinet officer responsible for the official records, publicly state are genuine?

[Ken]

Translation: I got caught spouting bull**** so let me throw some other bull**** out there.

Were there not multiple commissioners who felt they were misled?

Its been awhile since I thought about the exact context of the statement.

That was in 5 minutes of research I found those. i know there are more.

[Dan T.]

I would say that having a healthy dose of skepticism about things is a good thing in today's society. A healthy dose. Question. Seek answers. But don't lose sight of reason.

[War Paint]

She was speaking of his heritage. His father was from Kenya.

You may very well be correct in what her meaning was, but that sounds like spin to me. I have some German and Italian heritage, but if someone asked me what my home country was, I would answer "USA". I wouldn't say my home country is Italy. I mean, one of my grandparents was from Italy. That doesn't mean my mom goes around saying her home country is Italy, when she was born in North Carolina.

That said, I'm not saying Obama isn't a US citizen. I was just pointing out certain things that help fuel the fire.

[War Paint]

You mean, other than the official, certified, state-issued, legally binding, documentation, which both the Governor of the state, and the Cabinet officer responsible for the official records, publicly state are genuine?

And your response to Michelle Obama saying Kenya is Barack's home country?

[Ken]

New Fodder for Discussion.

http://www.bunge.go.ke/parliament/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=91&Itemid=84

Hot linking to the direct document is disabled so you have to select this document from the list:

Weekly Plenary Hansard 24.03.10P (320.79 kB)

The quote is on page 31.

This was stated by The Minister for Lands, Mr. James Orengo

"If America was living in a situation where they feared

ethnicity and did not see itself as a multiparty state or nation, how could a young man born here in Kenya, who is not even a native American, become the President of

America? It is because they did away with exclusion."

Another high ranking Kenyan Official publicly stating Soetoro was born in Kenya. This was as of March 25.

[Predicto]

Ok, doesn't make my statement untrue.

Sure it does. You asked why Berg's suit was not dismissed. His first two were. This one will be dismissed, but courts have huge dockets and do not move quickly.

Many native Hawaiians have stated otherwise in interviews and the policy has been changed since Obama was born.

False rumors again. Where are you getting this information, and are you trying to verify it in any way? Hawaii was a genuine State in the United States. It did not just issue false documents, much less to a nobody mullato child of an underaged mother like Barack Obama.

I have not seen this (sen certificate) but I will have to look into it.

It is the original source of these rumors about Hawaii giving out free certificates to anyone who asks. It is from long before Hawaii was a state.

Yes but you and your wife are both Citizens of the US and your kids are not trying to become the President at this moment. There is a clear history that can be traced for your kids. Obama's is incredibly dubious at best. This guy could not be qualified to be in the Secret Service with his background let alone be protected by them.

This is completely false. There is nothing "dubious" about being a child with one foreign parent.

What is wrong with WND? It was written by one of your peers, not just any joe schmoe... When I used to use WND to call into question GWB presidential decisions, the site was derided as a far left loon site. Now that the left is in play, is it far right?

WorldNetDaily INVENTED a good portion of the birther rumors to drive traffic to their website. They used to make money charging gullible birthers ten bucks to add their name to a faxed letter to the White House demanding that Obama respond to their rumors.

I suppose law can be interpreted in many ways, hence why your profession exists....

I have read the entire link you provided and it certainly goes into the issue of Natural Born Citizen at some length. I believe the slant is mostly to support the original finding of not finding sufficient evidence that the governor failed in his responsibility with issuing Certificates of Ascertainment for the presidential candidates.

It also puts a lot of weight on how the British interpreted Natural Born Citizen which supports the judges viewpoint. The other thing is I don't have access to the Plaintiff's case, but it sounds like it was based on flimsy evidence if it is references internet sites like politico...

It is not a "slant." I linked you to a published court opinion rejecting the claim that Natural Born citizen means "both parents must be citizens."

The reason that the decision talks about British law is because the founding fathers were British before they declared independence, and they based their law on the British law that they knew. Any law student will tell you that the first thing they learn in week one of law school is that American common law is based on British common law, and to interpret the meaning of any common law provision or ambiguous statutory phrase of that period, you refer to Blackstone first, then to other British sources of the time.

And Blackstone tells us that anyone born in Great Britain is automatically a "natural born subject of the King".

When the founding fathers used the term "Natural born citizen" without any more explanation, they must be deemed to be referring to the British common law definition. Of course, since we are no longer subject of the King, we say natural born "citizen" rather than natural born "subject." But the meaning is the same.

I assure you that 99.9% of judges and lawyers would reach this conclusion, same as did the court that wrote this opinion. The other 0.1% are the birthers, who are grabbing at straws to try to find any way to get Obama out of office.

Is it public knowledge where exactly he was born? My understanding is it is not known...

I'm 36 and know the name of the Doctor who delivered me...did that much change in 14 years?

I have no idea who delivered me, but my Certificate of Live Birth tells me it happened in Arlington, Virginia.

Why would Obama know?

While legal, it is not recommended, yet the president of our USA very likely is of dual citizenship.

U.S. State Department's Foreign Affairs Manual discusses problems associated with dual citizenship:

7 FAM 081: U.S. Policy on Dual Nationality:

(e)While recognizing the existence of dual nationality, the U.S. Government does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause. Dual nationality may hamper efforts by the U.S. Government to provide diplomatic and consular protection to individuals overseas. When a U.S. citizen is in the other country of their dual nationality, that country has a predominant claim on the person.

What does that have to do with natural born citizenship and eligibility for the Presidency?

Well, it tells me that not even his own party believes that he is a natural Born Citizen of the US. Why else would they not vote for it? This is not a partisan issue...

You really think that everyone in Washington knows the truth but they are all just pretending not to? Hillary Clinton knew Obama was ineligible, but didn't really want the nomination? John McCain knew, but didn't want to win the Presidency? Dick Cheney knew, but verified the results of the Electoral Congress? 535 members of congress knew, but sat on their hands while the results were announced? John Roberts knew, but swore Obama into office?

oh boy.

Admittedly, I didn't know as much about this issue as I do some others. My feeling is that he is hiding something. I feel like the evidence has not been sufficiently brought forth to prove that Obama was born in the US. Why is it that we had congressional hearings on whether or not Mccain was a natural born citizen but we never touch the subject in regards to Soetoro who has many moving parts in his background and came on the scene out of nowhere, relatively speaking?

We never had hearings on McCain's eligibility. That is another birther rumor.

This right here is the problem. "My feeling is that he is hiding something." You feel something is off, so you accept uncritially any rumors or lies that you hear, while ignoring the obvious answer that is right in front of your eyes.

You are not alone in this.

According to some psychologists, a person who believes in one conspiracy theory tends to believe in others; a person who does not believe in one conspiracy theory tends not to believe another.[25] This may be caused by differences in the information upon which parties rely in formulating their conclusions.

Psychologists believe that the search for meaning is common in conspiracism and the development of conspiracy theories, and may be powerful enough alone to lead to the first formulating of the idea. Once cognized, confirmation bias and avoidance of cognitive dissonance may reinforce the belief....

Humanistic psychologists argue that even if the cabal behind the conspiracy is almost always perceived as hostile there is, often, still an element of reassurance in it, for conspiracy theorists, in part because it is more consoling to think that complications and upheavals in human affairs, at least, are created by human beings rather than factors beyond human control. Belief in such a cabal is a device for reassuring oneself that certain occurrences are not random, but ordered by a human intelligence. This renders such occurrences comprehensible and potentially controllable. If a cabal can be implicated in a sequence of events, there is always the hope, however tenuous, of being able to break the cabal's power - or joining it and exercising some of that power oneself. Finally, belief in the power of such a cabal is an implicit assertion of human dignity - an often unconscious but necessary affirmation that man is not totally helpless, but is responsible, at least in some measure, for his own destiny.[27]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory

[Predicto]

This is certainly good information to know. Thank you.

Berg was also Assistant Attorney General for Pennsylvania. Just because he doesn't believe the Official Theory, doesn't make him an idiot.

I honestly don't know anything about the others but will keep this in mind.

Do you know what an "assistant attorney general" is?

It is any attorney employed by the attorney general's office in a state. There are hundreds, maybe thousands of AAGs in California alone. Several of my friends became AAGs on the day they graduated from law school.

[Dan T.]

New Fodder for Discussion.

http://www.bunge.go.ke/parliament/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=91&Itemid=84

Hot linking to the direct document is disabled so you have to select this document from the list:

Weekly Plenary Hansard 24.03.10P (320.79 kB)

The quote is on page 31.

This was stated by The Minister for Lands, Mr. James Orengo

"If America was living in a situation where they feared

ethnicity and did not see itself as a multiparty state or nation, how could a young man born here in Kenya, who is not even a native American, become the President of

America? It is because they did away with exclusion."

Another high ranking Kenyan Official publicly stating Soetoro was born in Kenya. This was as of March 25.

MY God. Finally, this is it. The proof that Obama was born in Kenya. Ken, thank you for your tenacity. At last, we have the final piece that proves Obama is not eligible to be President. What now?

[Predicto]

You may very well be correct in what her meaning was, but that sounds like spin to me. I have some German and Italian heritage, but if someone asked me what my home country was, I would answer "USA". I wouldn't say my home country is Italy. I mean, one of my grandparents was from Italy. That doesn't mean my mom goes around saying her home country is Italy, when she was born in North Carolina.

Of course not. But she might talk about the "home country" now and then. It's her heritage. Michelle did not say "My Husband was born in Kenya."

Making hay of this is silly.

[Predicto]

New Fodder for Discussion.

http://www.bunge.go.ke/parliament/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=91&Itemid=84

Hot linking to the direct document is disabled so you have to select this document from the list:

Weekly Plenary Hansard 24.03.10P (320.79 kB)

The quote is on page 31.

This was stated by The Minister for Lands, Mr. James Orengo

"If America was living in a situation where they feared

ethnicity and did not see itself as a multiparty state or nation, how could a young man born here in Kenya, who is not even a native American, become the President of

America? It is because they did away with exclusion."

Another high ranking Kenyan Official publicly stating Soetoro was born in Kenya. This was as of March 25.

Will wonders never cease? Someone in Kenya hears silly rumors too.

I hear that we have 57 states in the United States. After all the President of the United States himself said it.