2010 Record bad enough to the get franchise QB in 2011 draft???

[mistertim]

Yep, but U build around your QB and its a lot easier to get quality OLinemen than it is to find a Franchise QB. I'm not denying the importance of a quality OL, but it's a lot harder to get a franchise QB. That's the position U must draft when U get the chance. But he must be the QB you want.

I don't think that is necessarily true when you're talking about a rookie QB who you want to start early. Most rookies who start early and are successful have at least decent supporting casts. We have the opposite. As far as getting OL guys, yes some positions you can definitely find later. However, if you want a guy who can come in and immediately start at LT and play at a high level, you're generally talking about a 1st rounder, usually top half of the 1st. It would be incredible luck to get a guy in the 2nd round who could come in and start right away at LT which is what we need.

Drafting a QB with a horrible OL and starting him before you upgrade that line to where it is at least pretty decent as a unit (which, in our case, will probably take 2 years) is just asking for disaster. He will either end up injured or shell shocked and quite possibly bust, when he could have possibly been great had he actually been able to learn and play the NFL game with an NFL caliber offensive line.

[jflow78]

It really doesn't matter what we think, as has been said alread, "Shanahan will do what Shanahan wants to do". If he feels Clausen is going to be a star, we pick him at #4, if he feels Bradford is going to be a star, we trade up and get him at #1.

If he's very serious about getting a QB, I can't see him waiting until next season. We're worried we won't even get our guy and we're at #4, I doubt we'll be this low next season, even if only by a little. I just don't see how next season is going to be any better to get a QB in than the year we're at 4.

Who knows what Shanahan wants, at this point I can't tell if he's decided to get OL, QB, trade up, trade down, get a QB in the 2nd, take Tebow no matter what, or trade our picks away for guys from other teams. He's pretty good at not allowing leaks. I honestly believe the only guys that DO know what they want to do are Allen and Shanahan. Otherwise, I'm not sure how they keep Redskins Park so leak free, especially after we were a siv with Vinny there. Of course, his eyes were so big you could just read the thoughts on his brain if you were looking right into them.

[Sweet Sassy Molassy]

Agree with the greed and hatred part. I notice alot of people have a short term memory around here. Remember Brunell? As glaringly obvious his short comings were, I dont remember there being this level of hostility towards him. JC gets named the starter, and I remember this site being bogged down with traffic. Everyone was thrilled.

Wonder how long Brunell would have lasted behind the 09 line?

Gut, Brunell wouldn't have lasted at all. Few QBs would've.

It's eerie, really, seeing some of the things I've seen posted lately. JC isn't great, but he's definetly out-performing a good majority of recent Redskins QBs. Mathews? Wurffle? Ramsey? Hasselback? Did Banks even get chewed out like this? That I can remember, none of them got half the vile language JC is getting right now. I can understand people being passionate about their football team, but some posters are taking it to the level that I wonder if it's even really about football anymore.

I don't know what you guys are talking about but I remember Patrick Ramsey and Brunell being a hotly debated players for the Redskins, a lot of the conversation was similar to what is said about JC. I wasn't around here for any of the other QBs mentioned. The Ramsey vs. Brunell was a major debate in particular.

I think the difference in those cases was that Ramsey's time as the Redskins starter didn't last nearly as long as Jason's, nor did he have as many chances as Jason did to prove himself. However, I think Patrick Ramsey and Jason Campbell have a lot of similarities. Patrick showed promise early on, was still a bit raw, lacked touch on his throws, was hampered by a bad O-line yet still fought hard (and through injury) gaining the respect of many fans. However when Gibbs came in he grew fond of Mark Brunell, traded for him and gave him a ridiculous contract. Many felt this was a slight to Ramsey who had fought so hard for the team and showed promise, though there were still questions about his ability.

Brunell came in and played pretty badly in '04 and there were many calls for Patrick Ramsey to replace him. Finally Brunell was replaced, and Ramsey played well enough to be named starter heading into '05. However Ramsey had a less than stellar preseason, and in the first game was replaced by Brunell as starter, some felt that Ramsey still hadn't gotten a fair chance and many felt resentment toward Brunell ... that is until the Monday Night Miracle happened a week later. At that point Brunell seemed to find his stride and was playing at a high level. At that point the QB controversy died down. Brunell played well enough to silence many of his critics and CP put the team on his shoulders and led the team to a wildcard berth. It could be argued that the knee injury Brunell suffered against the Giants in the penultimate game of the season really affected his playmaking ability and had he not been injured its possible that we would have gone further in the playoffs because Brunell was playing pretty well most of the season.

In '06, we traded 3 picks for Jason Campbell, a price many felt was way too much for a guy some didn't even have a 1st round grade on. Patrick Ramsey was traded away for a 6th round pick. Brunell was the starter but he just didn't look the same, he was never the same after the knee injury and for a QB like him his legs were a very important to his arm strength. Midway through the season Jason came in and played well, and with Brunell being cut going into '07 Jason was obvious the starter.

Now, entering the JC era, most of his games early on were solid, however his propensity for fumbles, lack of chemistry with receivers, particularly Santana Moss (especially on the deep ball), late game interceptions, and poor decisions that cost some games kept Campbell from being considered a a undoubted franchise QB. Campbell did get a bit of a reprieve due to untimely turnovers and drops from his supporting WRs along with questionable Oline play. However, once Jason went down with an injury and Todd Collins came in and led the team to the playoffs many began to seriously question Jason's ability especially considering he showed great timing, touch and chemistry with the WR's that many were wondering what was wrong with and somehow the OLine seemed to even protect better.

Some felt going into the '08 season that Jason should be forced to prove his worth in a competition with Todd Collins who performed so well when Jason was injured. However Jason was handed the reigns unquestioned, he did start off solidly, but his play dropped off drastically around the 4th/5th game of the season, and he continued to play very erratically throughout the year. The O-line also really started to falter around the 6th/7th game of the year.

Now I'm not going delve into last year, we all know what happened.

But back on the original point, saying that no QB has faced as much criticism is sorta unfair. Brunell had a bad season in which he was replaced midway, a very good season that slowed the criticism and followed it up with a bad season that saw him replaced midway, and there was a ton of criticism during all his years here. Ramsey never started a full season with the Redskins and still was a heavily criticized player during that time.

Jason may be more criticized by default because he's had 3 straight years as the unquestioned starter and still hasn't shown much more than average. All of the other guys were held accountable for their poor play and turnovers. The Oline argument is valid, and it's completely wrong to say that Jason should take all the blame, however Jason hasn't really shown much ability to rise above ... anything. I'll always respect and like Jason, just like I'll always respect and like Patrick Ramsey. Both guys fought and worked hard for the Redskins, were good guys and seemed like respectable people. If Jason goes into this season as the starter I'll support him and hope he can change my mind about him.

[MrJL]

It's crazy some people honestly believe that, but they do. Our success or failure next year will rest on the shoulders of Jason Campbell. Even if he plays at damn near pro-bowl level, we're still implementing a new offense with a rebuilding o-line possibly starting rookie book-ends. Coming from last season, I'm just hoping we can at least get in the top 16 on offense, for real for real; the potential is definetly there. But if JC can play lights out next year, why the hell would we draft a QB anyway?

If JC bombs there's no way we're even .500 next year. There's no reason we couldn't be able to make a move if we had to.

even in a good year we'd only be 7-9 or 8-8. That's low to mid teens these days and it's still possible to get a franchise QB at that point.

[MrJL]

Yep, but U build around your QB and its a lot easier to get quality OLinemen than it is to find a Franchise QB. I'm not denying the importance of a quality OL, but it's a lot harder to get a franchise QB. That's the position U must draft when U get the chance. But he must be the QB you want.

If it's so damn hard to find one then why does everyone act like there's 2 or 3 every single draft.

[Enter Apotheosis]

Anyone saying that Jason Campbell is getting more venom than Ramsey or Brunell just has bad memory. Here are some excerpts courtesy of Google:

Ramsey

I know, I haven't laughed this hard in a long time. Ramsey sucks and allways will.

So i guess Ramsey steps up, closes his eyes, and throws where the reciever is on paper in the playbook. I know he wants to break out like Drew Brees, but Brees does that in his own personal PRACTICE sessions, not on Sunday! :doh:

Get off the Ramsey wagon and face reality!! Stop defending him!! He has had too many chances to prove something but has only proven how unstable he really is...

Our QB situation is horrible! We got Patrick "Always seems to be out of control" Ramsey, Mark "I got nothing left in the fuel tank" Brunell, and Jason "The Rookie, got no NFL experience" Campbell...

Ramsey has never impressed me as a leader of this offense. He always seems to look flustered and confused. He was sacked too many times, threw too many interceptions, and held on to the ball too long which often resulted in fumbles... Even in the controlled scrimmage, he looked horrible and flustered. So, in MHO, we gotta wait at least a year before Campbell takes control. He has shown more promise and calm than Ramsey has in all of his career thus far!!

If all of our eggs are in Ramsey basket, all of our eggs are shattered...

correct me if i am wrong. But how could Spurrier ruin Ramsey if he was never good?

His first start of his career before he could be ruined he threw like 4 interceptions in one half vs the Saints. They say he was not protected under Spurrier. But why when Hassleback came in came the offense only gave up like 4 sacks the rest of the season?

Ramseys only good stretch of his carreer was not very good. He played well in the first half vs the Jets and stunk in the second half. His second game he played the worse pass defense in the NFL in the Falcons. He threw like 5 intercepions the next week vs the Giants. Then Champ Bailey beat the Patriots himself through turnovers. THE REST OF HIS CAREER HE HAS BEEN BEAT OUT BY BELOW AVERAGE QBS. HE HAS HAD A CHANCE. He could not beat out Shane Mathews and crap QBS like this.

And ask yourself this. If Ramsey had any big time potential , why does everything need to be perfect for him to be good? He needs perfect protection, fast recievers a great running back. If you are a big time QB you make bad coaches look okay. You do not need good coaches to look good.

Last week before the Cowboy game was crazy. Why is Ramsey even a second stringer? He has been no better then Heath Shuler to me

Brunell

I think it's been fairly convincingly proven after 9 weeks that Brunell takes something OFF of the table because he can't see the whole field, can't throw down the middle, and can't make the throws that an NFL QB should make.

All of our problems lie on the shoulders of Mark Brunnell, hes a terrible QB. He is not what he was at Jacksonville, last years run was commendable, but in Saunders' offense you need a qb that can stand in and hit someone in the numbers, Brunnell certainly cannot do that. We need to turn to the future of the team, Jason Cambell.

This could be the worst qb in the nfl right now.We need to ban together and boo this loser every time he steps on the field .Maybe we can get Gibbs attention and he will finally bench or trade this loser.He summed up his pathetic carrer last night standing on the sideline,.waiting for the offense to get back on the field,his helmet was off and he was standing by himself.He had not even broke a sweat,this guy has no heart and no will to win .He is bringing this team into the crapper,his numbers were skewed last year and all you Brunell lovers do not need to reply ,if you back him your just as big of a hack as he is.:mad:

We need to cut Brunell. He's not going to retire with the money he is due until his contract is expired.

I would be sick if he somehow actually got $9,000,000 in 2009.

Really, just in pulling all those quotes and jogging my memory a little it's pretty clear that Ramsey and Campbell were both given the benefit of the doubt for several years and a lot of people felt (and still feel) bad for them. As Hershey Pork alluded to, the fact that Campbell stuck around longer meant that he received more opportunities to both prove himself and wear out his welcome. Brunell, on the other hand, almost never got the benefit of the doubt by comparison and was absolutely reviled when he wasn't playing well. He only had a 2.5 season stretch as a starter... but the negative response he received at times was probably bigger and more universally agreed upon than anything Campbell has gotten.

[samy316]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Brunell more hated then JC ever was? I remember Campbell ironically went down in the season closer at home against the Giants in the lost 2006 season. Brunell was actually BOOED when he entered the game, and I remember feeling really bad for Brunell as he came into the game to a chorus of boos. JC hasn't experienced anything of that sort so far in his 5 years with the organization. Sure there were times when the fans here in DC booed, but that was mainly because of the lack of offense the first 4 home games this year. Until JC gets booed at specifically, or when he starts getting ripped into shreds by more than 80-90% of the fanbase, media, etc, Brunell or Ramsey should be looked at as the most hated Redskins Quarterbacks of the last decade.

[wvtbred]

If it's so damn hard to find one then why does everyone act like there's 2 or 3 every single draft.

Good question and I agree with getting the QB and then building around him. Not against starting the rook either especially if you are paying top 4 money for him. If you have Rex or Jason to take the hits while the rook gets his feet wet for half a year that would be ok too.

[DGREENHULK]

You never know who will be a FRANCHISE QB....so it really doesn't matter what our record is this year as long as we have a 1st and 2nd round pick in next years draft or like Romo sits to pee an undrafted rookie could turn into a FRANCHISE QB... Who knows McCoy or Tebow could turn out to be Franchise QB's and they are 2nd round guys this year....point is just because you want a Franchise QB doesn't mean you have to take them in the 1st 2 picks of a draft.

[Darrell Green Fan]

The last few posters pretty much nailed it. I was the #1 Brunell hater and I was hardly alone. But face it guys, the future of this franchise was placed in large part on the shoulders of JC. Had he developed into Aaron Rogers our recent past and immediate future would look completely different. The fact that he was given every chance to show that he was a QB you can build around, and he failed at showing this, has resulted in the fan backlash. Perfectly understandable if you ask me.

JC is a good guy but his play has stunted the development of this team. Personally I like the guy but even though I understand that it is a team game it would have been nice if just once he would have looked in the camera and admitted that needed to play better. "We" didn't overthrow a wide open Santana Moss Jason, YOU did.

[Snagletooth]

I'm not a believer in Jason. I read the board every day. And I believe its just a handful of people who take the "hate" to extreme levels.

That being said, I believe that OT is clearly a massive weakness. We will not make any progress offensively in Shanahans system unless OT is addresses. Would a 2nd OT be sufficient to solidify the line? Thats quite a gamble. Our hand may be forced to go OT this year. Its sensible because JC is adequate. There is no reason we should not be competitive with JC provided we get an OT that can step in day one.

The problem is if JC doesn't take that step forward as many fear. His contract is up. I doubt Shanahan would franchise a guy he is lukewarm on. We would have no option at QB. Our hand would be forced again. Forced to get the QB. Will a worthy QB fall to our draft position? Can we put together a package to move up? Again a huge gamble. And at the most critical position.

Do you want to wager our future on Campbell taking the next step? Colt McCoy or Tebow. Can we land Locker or out future in the 2011 draft. How about stinging along vet castoffs for a few years until we get our guy?

Or do you want to gamble this season? We could go into 2011 with our choice between Campbell and Clausen, with a year in the system, and a guy like Saffold with a year under his belt. If it comes down to Clausen vs Bulaga I guess I would go Clausen. If its Clausen vs Okung I would go Okung. Until I change my mind tomorrow.

[Gregpeck99]

I hated Brunell ... but knew he would be replaced.

With Campbell its always "lets give him one more year because the Oline sucks or the OC is new every year."

I've never seen such a lousy, non-producing NFL QB get such a mulligan for such a long time ... its wierd!

[gutlead74]

Just for the record I think JC is a good QB and would definatly improve with some protection. I am also one whom firmly believes OL/DL wins games and I would really like to upgrade our OL. However I really really think highly of Bradford if Bradford is gone then please dear god please address OL. My only hesitation would be if suh were available. Easily the most dominate player I have seen and he isn't just natural ability he is hard work as well.

[Darrell Green Fan]

Just for the record I think JC is a good QB and would definatly improve with some protection. I am also one whom firmly believes OL/DL wins games and I would really like to upgrade our OL. However I really really think highly of Bradford if Bradford is gone then please dear god please address OL. My only hesitation would be if suh were available. Easily the most dominate player I have seen and he isn't just natural ability he is hard work as well.

I am not trying to claim that Bradford is John Elway but the draft day trade that moved Elway from the Colts to the Broncos involved a stud OL, Chris Hinton, as well as a #1 pick that resulted in another Pro Bowl OL in Ron Solt going to the Colts. Yet look at how the 2 teams turned out. You take the top QB and the rest takes care of itself.

[Veretax]

I have a feeling the skins will so over chieve this year, maybe not playoffs that it will ruin our chances at a franchise QB in 2010. I have a feeling JC or Rex will so light it up the question may not be settled but be less of an issue too

[mistertim]

I don't ever recall Brunell or Ramsey being called "retarded", "an idiot", "a loser", "a moron", all of which I have seen people call Campbell on this board. The difference is the personal attacks.

[MrJL]

I am not trying to claim that Bradford is John Elway but the draft day trade that moved Elway from the Colts to the Broncos involved a stud OL, Chris Hinton, as well as a #1 pick that resulted in another Pro Bowl OL in Ron Solt going to the Colts. Yet look at how the 2 teams turned out. You take the top QB and the rest takes care of itself.

Elway's only okay if you fast forward till the end of his career. Maybe that's my problem compared to everyone else. I'd rather the Skins just miss the playoffs or lose in the divisional round rather than lose in the NFC Championship or Super Bowl.

[Reaper 21]

JC is not as bad as everybody acts and he gets all the blame for an overall terrible team. We had a carousel of bad running backs, we lost cooley this season granted davis stepped up but still not as good as cooley, we relied heavily on a group of receivers instead of a solid 1, 2, and 3. We had a carousel of lineman and campbell got hit on every play. not to mention our "amazing d" came in last in turnovers so it wasnt like we were giving him a short field, acutally or special teams should not be forgotten rock, randel el all suck plus suisham sucks. and finally we had a group of leftover coaches who had no idedntity. So IMO Campbell's 3000 yds 20tds and 15 ints average season was one of the few bright spots other than maybe Devin Thomas Fred Davis, Orakpo, Carter, Fletcher, and Hall. Everybody else IMO fell off this year in production. So unless CP is the back of old which i dont believe he will be, JC is one rare bright spot on the O next year. You give campbell this kind of team and he still improves why we so eager to hate.

[Darrell Green Fan]

Elway's only okay if you fast forward till the end of his career. Maybe that's my problem compared to everyone else. I'd rather the Skins just miss the playoffs or lose in the divisional round rather than lose in the NFC Championship or Super Bowl.

Please tell me you are either young and uniformed on the history of John Elway's career or you are just kidding. For the record John Elway nearly by himself carried those early Broncos teams. He got a team with bad WRs and a starting RB who totalled 789 yards to the Super Bowl in 1986. Of course they got there because of the infamous "Drive" engineered by Elway.

[Darrell Green Fan]

JC is not as bad as everybody acts and he gets all the blame for an overall terrible team. We had a carousel of bad running backs, we lost cooley this season granted davis stepped up but still not as good as cooley, we relied heavily on a group of receivers instead of a solid 1, 2, and 3. We had a carousel of lineman and campbell got hit on every play. not to mention our "amazing d" came in last in turnovers so it wasnt like we were giving him a short field, acutally or special teams should not be forgotten rock, randel el all suck plus suisham sucks. and finally we had a group of leftover coaches who had no idedntity. So IMO Campbell's 3000 yds 20tds and 15 ints average season was one of the few bright spots other than maybe Devin Thomas Fred Davis, Orakpo, Carter, Fletcher, and Hall. Everybody else IMO fell off this year in production. So unless CP is the back of old which i dont believe he will be, JC is one rare bright spot on the O next year. You give campbell this kind of team and he still improves why we so eager to hate.

Nobody said he was horrible or the sole reason. We've just come to the conclusion that this team will never win a Super Bowl with JC at QB. His numbers were totally padded by meaningless completions at the end of games lost. When the game was on the line he constantly failed to deliver and he was rarely the reason the team won.

[mistertim]

Please tell me you are either young and uniformed on the history of John Elway's career or you are just kidding. For the record John Elway nearly by himself carried those early Broncos teams. He got a team with bad WRs and a starting RB who totalled 789 yards to the Super Bowl in 1986. Of course they got there because of the infamous "Drive" engineered by Elway.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/ElwaJo00.htm

Take a look at his years up until '92 and tell me he was elite before then.

[Enter Apotheosis]

I don't ever recall Brunell or Ramsey being called "retarded", "an idiot", "a loser", "a moron", all of which I have seen people call Campbell on this board. The difference is the personal attacks.

One of the quotes in my earlier post had someone calling Brunell a loser. It's all been done before.

[mistertim]

One of the quotes in my earlier post had someone calling Brunell a loser. It's all been done before.

Do you have quotes calling Brunell or Ramsey "retarded", "an idiot", "a moron"?

[Perky72]

Yeah, franchise QBs can found anywhere in the draft, but the probabilities get higher the higher the pick is. I mean, let's say we only had one 7th round pick the next ten years and needed a franchise QB--how likely would it be we could get it from the draft?

If Shanahan thinks Clausen or Bradford have a good chance to be a franchise QB he should definitely take them imo. The O-line is important, particularly LT, but a QB is still a lot more important than an LT. And in this draft the LTs are not sure-fire "franchise LTs" either, they have question marks as well. There are question marks for the prospective top QBs next year draft, and yes I do think we'll have a mid-range pick at best, so we won't get one of those unless we trade up.

My rough definition of a franchise QB is "a QB so good that the team they play for wants to lock them in as their starter until they retire (or fall way off production)". How long has it been since the Skins had one? Perhaps Doug Williams' SB win made us think we don't need a real franchise QB, but at this point we do. QB has never been more important in the NFL, with rules wrapping them in bubble-wrap and RBs' value declining.

[FLRedskins]

Ponder seems like a Shanahan type of Qb but he could possibly go #1-5 depending on how Jimbo get the Noles going this year