2010 Record bad enough to the get franchise QB in 2011 draft???

[Renegade7]

You're making this mostly about JC and it isn't. The "3 year plan" is a well established strategy to turn around a franchise. There are many examples. Cowgirls, Colts, Philthy, Chargers, etc.

Shannahan has a "license to fail" this year. It is a rebuilding year. So far he's going text book. Saving cap space, signing reliable vets, etc.

I think he's setting it up beautifully...

I don't want this discussion to center entirely around Jason Campbell, but he is a major part of the big picture. Shanahan has already said he's planning to contend this season, not waiting a couple before thinking we even have a fighting chance. That's great if giving up works for other teams, but that doesn't mean that WE have to just forfiet two or three seasons to stockpile draft picks. It drives me nuts when I see people suggest it in the wizards threads, and I'm tired of losing, man.

I'm saying we're going to be good in 2010 if we rebuild this offensive line and keep JC as the starting QB. My overall point for this thread is that if I'm wrong (and I've been wrong before), and JC fails, you will still have a rebuilt line with a high enough pick for getting a franchise QB. We have a better chance to win games with JC and a new o-line then with a rookie QB with a rookie LT guarding his blind side.

For me, this discussion isn't so much about JC as it is trying to compete EVERY year for a super bowl. See the sig I have? That's with or without Jason Campbell. Don't get it twisted. I have not lost faith in JC like some others have, but that doesn't make me a blind follower.

edit - The same way I wouldn't want to accuse all Anti-JC fans of being blind haters and wanting to lose, please don't accuse me of being a blind optomist cheerleader. I'm a realist who disagrees with a lot of you.

[Renegade7]

nm double post

[SkinsHokieFan]

The big thing is, if you feel you have the chance to get a franchise QB, why wait a year?

Get the guy in house and get him started on learning your offense and the NFL, or else the whole timeline to being a legit year in year out contender is pushed back by a year, at least.

JC is not going to lead this team to the playoffs, much less Superbowl. At best, its a .500 team with the guy

[THE HAMMER'IN HOG]

One more point I'd like to make, Jason is the only QB that we've had where when the game is on the line and he has the ball that I find myself nearly crossing my fingers thinking, "Jason please don't screw this up, just make the right plays to get us to the endzone" and cringing in near horror while watching him.

Well at least you imply hope when the game is on the line, I'm usually taking bets on whether it will be a 4 and out, or an INT.

[Wyvern]

that is an awful lot of maybes you've got there.

These were just different kinds of scenarios I was offering up as examples where Campbell might not play well -- but the team still have a middle-of-the-pack record. I was responding to a conclusion being drawn that if the record was good, that meant Campbell was the reason it was good.

So I offered 'maybes' like the RBs carrying the team, or the Defense carrying the offense, or maybe a backup getting hot and winning games while Campbell sat. But this is all just speculation on possible ways the team might have a better record than 4-12, even though Campbell played about the same. It doesn't mean it will happen.

You're assuming significant upgrades in talent during a year when there's just no reason to.

We're benefiting from a #4 overall pick, and a early second rounder -- that should net us some decent picks. I'm not certain how well we'll do with obtaining other new free agents -- but we've already got a lot of younger players who are starting to reach the prime of their careers. Traditionally, the 3rd year is a breakout year for WRs and we've got two decent 3rd-year WRs.

We've signed a few free agents that might help. Larry Johnson may still have some gas in the tank, and it remains to be seen what Grossman can do in a different system than Chicago's. We've also resigned Mike Williams who has had another year to get in better shape. And Artis Hicks and the Ravens NT were considered decent talent.

There is zero reason to expect us to be better this year.

We have a new makeover for the team with a well-regarded professional coach, a well-regarded GM, a well-regarded coaching staff -- and a lot of players who are publically commenting how much better things are now. We're going to have some new talent on the active roster, and hopefully less people on IR than last year. These might be some sources for hope.

Naturally, it's the off-season, so speculation is just that -- guessing what 'might' be. But I'm hopeful for the franchise turning itself in a better direction in 2010. And that might translate into a better record than 4-12.

[Gigantor]

I don't want this discussion to center entirely around Jason Campbell, but he is a major part of the big picture.

I'm saying we're going to be good in 2010 if we rebuild this offensive line and keep JC as the starting QB.

For me, this discussion isn't so much about JC as it is trying to compete EVERY year for a super bowl.

Dude, you're all about JC. I can understand a man-crush for a player, but you're tea-bagging the man. Give it a rest.

JC has permanent issues which he will never overcome; however, he also has God given abilities which compensate somewhat. Again, JC like many of our players, has been a victim of the scheme Zorn brought in. It was simply a disaster and it's not fair to judge JC solely on the last two years.

It is reasonable, even desirable for Shannahan to rebuild and write this year off. The advantage gained over the next 3 years is undisputed. It is THE standard for turning a franchise around.

I agree we should keep JC because the current crop of QBs is not that great. Sign his offer sheet and let him take a beating for one more year, he handled it well last season and should be able to last one more.

Trade him next year after we sign a franchise QB with the 1rst or 2nd pick, or keep him as a backup.

[Warhead36]

The big thing is, if you feel you have the chance to get a franchise QB, why wait a year?

Get the guy in house and get him started on learning your offense and the NFL, or else the whole timeline to being a legit year in year out contender is pushed back by a year, at least.

JC is not going to lead this team to the playoffs, much less Superbowl. At best, its a .500 team with the guy

qfmft

[Sweet Sassy Molassy]

HP, as much as I respect your opinion, posts like this drive me absolutely crazy, man. Maybe you're over exaggerating, or just pissed off, which I can understand. But JC is NOT the worst QB in redskins history, as some would like to believe. He has plenty of room for improvement, but he's definetly ahead of a lot of the redskins QBs since at least Brad Johnson left. I understand this pot has been on the stove long enough to worry about burning water, but it's truely rediculous to see you post that and even crazier to see people agree with you. If that's what you honestly believe, I won't hold it against you, nothing personal at all.

To be honest it's the truth, Jason is the only Redskins QB that I've been so nervous about actually making the plays to win a game. It's not necessarily a negative about Jason, it's just an indication of how inconsistent he is as a QB. With Brunell in '06 I knew he was done so I didn't have any confidence in him so I didn't expect much, in '05 I felt like when he had the ball in his hands he was going to make something happen. Ramsey I liked quite a bit and I actually had a bit more faith in him to make something happen. Many of the other QBs I just had no faith in. Jason I've always wanted to see him succeed despite what all the detractors said but I was always much more nervous watching him because very rarely did he prove them wrong. Just sorta the indication of how frustrating JC can be, he's got almost all the tools in the world, but is still missing those few that prevent him from getting over the hump.

I don't know, I didn't mean it in a hateful way, just more of a laughing to keep from crying thing.

Also, I never said he was the worst Redskins QB, I don't believe that. I think he's an average QB. I think he's better than some make him out to be, but I also think that people have been so starved for a real QB, along with the burns on past QBs, in Washington that they will take whatever they can get and thusly have latched all hope onto JC.

I'm looking to win next year, and we're not going to do that with a rookie QB and nobody able to protect him.

See this is the argument that really baffles me. People talk as if drafting linemen in any round other than the first is automatically junk. The way I look at it, if we get an LT our line will be much more solid than it was last year. Dockery is playing fine, Rabach as much as I dislike him wont be terrible average at least, at RG I think Rinehart is better than people give him credit for, and with Hicks and BMW we have solid depth there, RT can be found in later rounds and I think Hicks could possibly shirt over there and be fine if need be. The draft is pretty solid all around, except for QBs, and with the face that there's bound to be some guys who slip into the 2nd we'll have a shot at a good LT. I don't think we're going to be screwed if we don't draft LT in the first. People saw our line sucked last year and are jumping overboard going, "OH **** we gotta get 7 different linemen in the draft, then we gotta sign 4 more OL FA's and then we gotta go a guy who just reads about offensive linemen and another guy to do a seminar on the importance of linemen anything less and our line will suck!!"

[Renegade7]

Dude, you're all about JC. I can understand a man-crush for a player, but you're tea-bagging the man. Give it a rest.

JC has permanent issues which he will never overcome; however, he also has God given abilities which compensate somewhat. Again, JC like many of our players, has been a victim of the scheme Zorn brought in. It was simply a disaster and it's not fair to judge JC solely on the last two years.

It is reasonable, even desirable for Shannahan to rebuild and write this year off. The advantage gained over the next 3 years is undisputed. It is THE standard for turning a franchise around.

I agree we should keep JC because the current crop of QBs is not that great. Sign his offer sheet and let him take a beating for one more year, he handled it well last season and should be able to last one more.

Trade him next year after we sign a franchise QB with the 1rst or 2nd pick, or keep him as a backup.

Wow, what's up with the personal attacks, dude? Just because you want to take it up the butt from other teams for the next couple years until we get permission to win doesn't give me reason to assume you're gay, right?

And Wyvern, I distinctly remember us having the #4 defense and a 1300 yard rusher ending up 6-10. This is all speculation, but you won't have to mortgage the future to move up that much further then the #4 we have right now (what was that #9 pick we got after that season).

I'll be back. Gotta go.

*edited

[NoGravity]

Flacco was the 18th overall pick the year he was drafted

Yeah he should have been picked in the 5th round. He sucks.

[JoeKnowsBest]

Let me just point out that the poll results are a bit skewed. Having two choices for "yes" and only one for "no" makes it look like a majority is saying "no" when that is in fact not the case.

Anyway, the argument that we need a high pick to acquire a franchise QB is pretty weak.

First of all, taking a quarterback with a high pick is not necessarily a good way to find a franchise quarterback. Anybody remember Tim Couch and Jamarcus Russell? What about (sorry to ask) Heath Shuler?

Second of all, it is in no way necessary to spend a high draft pick to find a franchise quarterback. The truth is a franchise quarterback can be found without drafting one in the first round, the second round, or even the third round. Think of guys like Kurt Warner, Tom Brady, and (sorry to say) Tony Romo sits to pee.

Frankly, the idea that we need to spend a high draft pick on a QB bothers me, especially when it is based on muddy thinking like this. What we really need is a stud LT, which is a truely rare breed.

Ok you want to play that game, and since you named 3, I'll name three or more. Anybody remember Mike Williams? Jason Smith? Andre Smith? Robert Gallery? All top 10 picks that went belly up (no pun intended). OT has every bit as much bust potential that high as QB. But QB has more importance to the long term success of the franchise. Your thinking right there is every bit as muddy.

Also for anyone interested, Sam Bradford's Pro Day is today!

[Wyvern]

...And Wyvern, I distinctly remember us having the #4 defense and a 1300 ending up 6-10. This is all speculation, but you won't have to mortgage the future to move up that much further then the #4 we have right now (what was that #7 pick we got after that season).

True. Gibbs first year (2004)-- struggling with Brunell and Ramsey and an anemic offense, and some bad signings. We got the #9 pick -- Rogers, and traded other picks up to Denver in order to pick Campbell at #25. Alex Smith went #1 and the other consensus #1 (Aaron Rodgers) oddly slid to Green Bay at #24. I was hoping he'd slide to #25, but no luck.

But what about the 2006 campaign where we went 5-11? That was when Campbell took over for Brunell mid-season and then went 2-5 for the remainder of the season. The defense was not good that season, it slipped from its #5 ranking in 2005 to 29th overall -- especially with all the problems in the secondary.

In the ensuing 2007 draft, Jamarcus Russell was the first overall pick with Calvin Johnson and Joe Thomas all close contenders for top-pick honors. As I recall getting into the second slot to pick up Johnson (Receiver of a decade!) was going to be too expensive to consider. Russell was also considered a lock, and probably expensive too, but Skins weren't in the market for a QB at the time.

Skins stayed put and picked Landry, over such notables as Adrian Peterson, Patrick Willis, and Darrelle Revis.

Strangely -- I liked the Landry pick at the time -- and recall all the debate on ES was between paying tons to get Johnson, going for Landry, or getting a big D-lineman like Okoye or Jamaal Anderson. (A few wanted Gaines Adams.)

Draft day on ES is something special!!

PS: Or what about talking about the 2004 draft where we picked up Taylor with the 5th pick. ( We'd gone 5-11 in Spurrier's last season, and the defense was not top-tier at all).

Eli Manning was #1 overall (Chargers!), and Philip Rivers #4 and the QB's were swapped in a blockbuster trade netting San Diego several more picks. Fitzgerald was the #3 overall, and Oakland (as usual) busted on 'can't miss' LT Robert Gallery.

My point is that 'franchise QB's often go in the first 5 picks -- and trading up into those slots isn't easily done. And even then, there's no guarantee you'll get value, especially if you're in the Oakland Bay area!

[Audible_Red40]

I would vote for "no", but I dont like the options "no - that's why we have to do it now". I am on board with we dont have to do it at all.

If the FO believes that this is the year to do it, so be it, I will support that move.

I think the Shanahan's will get this offense going, and it will start as soon as this upcoming year. Campbell is more then serviceable at QB. Dude has been through a lot of schemes and coaches and personel changes.

For the record, I am also on the side of this team is not rebuilding, but we are retooling. This team has the personel to make a run at the paloffs. If we get the O-line help we need, I truly believe it will be a positive for all phases of the game.

[Renegade7]

nm double post

[Renegade7]

To be honest it's the truth, Jason is the only Redskins QB that I've been so nervous about actually making the plays to win a game. It's not necessarily a negative about Jason, it's just an indication of how inconsistent he is as a QB. With Brunell in '06 I knew he was done so I didn't have any confidence in him so I didn't expect much, in '05 I felt like when he had the ball in his hands he was going to make something happen. Ramsey I liked quite a bit and I actually had a bit more faith in him to make something happen. Many of the other QBs I just had no faith in. Jason I've always wanted to see him succeed despite what all the detractors said but I was always much more nervous watching him because very rarely did he prove them wrong. Just sorta the indication of how frustrating JC can be, he's got almost all the tools in the world, but is still missing those few that prevent him from getting over the hump.

I don't know, I didn't mean it in a hateful way, just more of a laughing to keep from crying thing.

HP, I'm glad we got that cleared up, and I can relate to a lot of the pain and choas you're going through as a fellow redskins fan. I agree with you on a couple of your points, most importantly the one about having the tools but not knowing if JC will ever figure out how to use them correctly on a consistent basis. I believe he can, a lot of people don't. That's the line in the sand that makes having these types of discussions extremely difficult, if not impossible sometimes.

Also, I never said he was the worst Redskins QB, I don't believe that. I think he's an average QB. I think he's better than some make him out to be, but I also think that people have been so starved for a real QB, along with the burns on past QBs, in Washington that they will take whatever they can get and thusly have latched all hope onto JC.

"The worst Redskins QB ever" part was more a response to Wyvern and other's that believe that, then it was at you. Sorry for not making that more clear (I was hoping the "some would like to believe" would work, because I prefere talking generals instead of literals; the world is usually not that black or white).

I understand people being desperate for a real QB, but I'm not so desperate that I want to use the #4 pick on either of these guys that everybody's talking about.

Based on what I've seen and what I've read from people I believe know more about what they're talking about on the subject then I do, my gut tells me neither Bradford or Clausen are going to live up to that #4 pick. That's another line in the sand that I can see both sides of, but that's another subject that people use to lump people in the pro-JC or anti-JC camp, which I try my best not to do. Not accusing you of that, but you understand my point, right?

See this is the argument that really baffles me. People talk as if drafting linemen in any round other than the first is automatically junk. The way I look at it, if we get an LT our line will be much more solid than it was last year. Dockery is playing fine, Rabach as much as I dislike him wont be terrible average at least, at RG I think Rinehart is better than people give him credit for, and with Hicks and BMW we have solid depth there, RT can be found in later rounds and I think Hicks could possibly shirt over there and be fine if need be.

The draft is pretty solid all around, except for QBs, and with the face that there's bound to be some guys who slip into the 2nd we'll have a shot at a good LT. I don't think we're going to be screwed if we don't draft LT in the first. People saw our line sucked last year and are jumping overboard going, "OH **** we gotta get 7 different linemen in the draft, then we gotta sign 4 more OL FA's and then we gotta go a guy who just reads about offensive linemen and another guy to do a seminar on the importance of linemen anything less and our line will suck!!"

Ya, a lot of people are pulling the fire alarm lately on both sides of the issue. Not me though. Rhino maybe on his way, but I don't believe he's ready to start just yet, thus I'm not compelled to move Hicks out of the RG spot he was intended for. I can't stand Rabach, but the way he's built I feel he'll work out better in a ZBS then what Gibbs and Zorn where asking him to do. BMW, Wilson, there's a lot of cats on the roster right now that flat out should not be starting in the NFL.

Right now, I don't see anyone on the roster that I'd even remotely trust for JC's blindside. Me, I want LT to be a non-issue for the next decade. We have a better chance of getting a prospect like that with the #4 pick then we do in the second round. But the draft is so deep that we could end up with our future LT and RT before we even get to the fourth round for our next pick (hell, we won't even need the third rounder we don't have right now to address the issues). We don't have to spend the entire draft on o-line, but this crop is so deep that we should at least come out of with a new LT and RT, minimum.

This is an o-line draft, not a QB draft. That's a big reason I want us to fix the o-line this year and address QB next year, if neccessary.

[Renegade7]

True. Gibbs first year (2004)-- struggling with Brunell and Ramsey and an anemic offense, and some bad signings. We got the #9 pick -- Rogers, and traded other picks up to Denver in order to pick Campbell at #25. Alex Smith went #1 and the other consensus #1 (Aaron Rodgers) oddly slid to Green Bay at #24. I was hoping he'd slide to #25, but no luck.

But what about the 2006 campaign where we went 5-11? That was when Campbell took over for Brunell mid-season and then went 2-5 for the remainder of the season. The defense was not good that season, it slipped from its #5 ranking in 2005 to 29th overall -- especially with all the problems in the secondary.

In the ensuing 2007 draft, Jamarcus Russell was the first overall pick with Calvin Johnson and Joe Thomas all close contenders for top-pick honors. As I recall getting into the second slot to pick up Johnson (Receiver of a decade!) was going to be too expensive to consider. Russell was also considered a lock, and probably expensive too, but Skins weren't in the market for a QB at the time.

Skins stayed put and picked Landry, over such notables as Adrian Peterson, Patrick Willis, and Darrelle Revis.

Strangely -- I liked the Landry pick at the time -- and recall all the debate on ES was between paying tons to get Johnson, going for Landry, or getting a big D-lineman like Okoye or Jamaal Anderson. (A few wanted Gaines Adams.)

Draft day on ES is something special!!

PS: Or what about talking about the 2004 draft where we picked up Taylor with the 5th pick. ( We'd gone 5-11 in Spurrier's last season, and the defense was not top-tier at all).

Eli Manning was #1 overall (Chargers!), and Philip Rivers #4 and the QB's were swapped in a blockbuster trade netting San Diego several more picks. Fitzgerald was the #3 overall, and Oakland (as usual) busted on 'can't miss' LT Robert Gallery.

My point is that 'franchise QB's often go in the first 5 picks -- and trading up into those slots isn't easily done. And even then, there's no guarantee you'll get value, especially if you're in the Oakland Bay area!

Ya, I was rushing and forgot it was #9, not #7. But you didn't ignore my point, which means it's all good. And I understand yours in that moving up into the top 5 isn't easy. But the Eli and Rivers argument can get nullified because Big Ben was drafted #11 in the same draft and has more superbowl rings then both those cats combined. Is Big Ben not a franchise QB because he wasn't picked in the top 5 of the draft?

We really don't know what's going to happen. We don't know who's going to be a bust this draft, how well JC is going to do, or who's going to be avaliable next draft if JC fails miserably. What I do know is that if QB is the only thing on this roster holding us back from winning, Shanny is going to do what he has to do to get the QB he wants. He's already shown a history of doing that with Cutler, and who's to say we won't make a move on a solid veteran to buy time until the 2012 draft for better QB prospects?

[Renegade7]

I would vote for "no", but I dont like the options "no - that's why we have to do it now". I am on board with we dont have to do it at all.

If the FO believes that this is the year to do it, so be it, I will support that move.

I think the Shanahan's will get this offense going, and it will start as soon as this upcoming year. Campbell is more then serviceable at QB. Dude has been through a lot of schemes and coaches and personel changes.

For the record, I am also on the side of this team is not rebuilding, but we are retooling. This team has the personel to make a run at the paloffs. If we get the O-line help we need, I truly believe it will be a positive for all phases of the game.

That's my bad on the poll. I was trying to keep this from being "just another JC" thread by keeping that last "no" out. I'll remember this next time I start a thread with a poll in it.

[Mooka]

If JC holds us back in 2010, we'll easily be able to tell.

That's a laughable statement on this board.

[Renegade7]

That's a laughable statement on this board.

Easily be able to tell? Yes. Easily be able to admit it. That's laughable for both sides. Some people wear glasses, some have contacts, others have gotten laser eye surgery so there is absolutely no hope for them.

Rest assured, I promise not to bump this thread in an attempt to say "I told you so". Scouts honor.

[Arsenic]

Will there be any decent FA QB's available next year?

I, honestly, see 10 wins in 2010...

[Renegade7]

Will there be any decent FA QB's available next year?

I, honestly, see 10 wins in 2010...

All three of the Philly QBs will be UFAs in 2011 (I mention this because I don't see them keeping all three). So is Tom Brady, Billy Volek, and Matt Hasselback.

[CG]

I think Jason is poised to have a great year. K. Shanahan did an amazing job with Matt Schaub and that offense down in Houston. I'm not sure who will be calling the plays, but JC is also mobile enough to be dangerous in the bootleg system that Shanahan used to call in Denver. He's improved every year, and threw 20 TDs last year. We don't have an Andre Johnson type receiver here, but Campbell has as much talent as Matt Schaub does. The FO did the right thing in tendering him this year and letting him sink or swim. He'll start this season, whether we draft a rookie or not. I believe he will continue to get better, as he has every year.

[JoeKnowsBest]

I think Jason is poised to have a great year. K. Shanahan did an amazing job with Matt Schaub and that offense down in Houston. I'm not sure who will be calling the plays, but JC is also mobile enough to be dangerous in the bootleg system that Shanahan used to call in Denver. He's improved every year, and threw 20 TDs last year. We don't have an Andre Johnson type receiver here, but Campbell has as much talent as Matt Schaub does. The FO did the right thing in tendering him this year and letting him sink or swim. He'll start this season, whether we draft a rookie or not. I believe he will continue to get better, as he has every year.

I thought he failed to show improvement last year. Him holding the ball, looking confused, and running around in the pocket without even having pressure during the play was evidence. I got sick of the step up and run to the side only to either eventually get hit, sacked, or throw the ball away every single play. I can't bear to sit through that another season. Also let's not forget about the Red Zone issues. Of coarse, you could easily attribute that problem to Jim Zorn and the playcalling.

[CG]

I thought he failed to show improvement last year. Him holding the ball, looking confused, and running around in the pocket without even having pressure during the play was evidence. I got sick of the step up and run to the side only to either eventually get hit, sacked, or throw the ball away every single play. I can't bear to sit through that another season. Also let's not forget about the Red Zone issues. Of coarse, you could easily attribute that problem to Jim Zorn and the playcalling.

Well, he threw 7 more touchdowns, which is more than a 50% improvement there. I do think that the redzone play calling was an issue. It looked like Campbell got a lot better once Sherm was calling the plays and actually let him throw a bit down in the RZ. It seemed like every goal-to-go situation was three runs and then an FG, or letting Clinton Portis throw the ball.

JC's achilles heel will continue to be that he has problems closing games out. I think he plays well enough until the game is on the line and then he throws a pick or just doesn't get it done. Obviously that needs to change, but I think that the signs point to him having a good year this year. I doubt that he stays in Washington after this year anyway, but he should have good enough pieces this year to succeed.

That being said, I'm done making excuses for the guy. If you don't get it done with the Shanny's calling your plays, its over.

[wvtbred]

I am just going to "bite my lip" and say we need our QB this year while we are this close to the top.