Military Drafts: What would you do?

[Redskins Diehard]

Ali objected based on his religion forbidding him from killing anyone.

~Bang

Those Muslims are pretty opposed to killing people

[Bang]

Those Muslims are pretty opposed to killing people

yeah, seems kind of ironic.

~Bang

[Seabee1973]

So what about Conscientious objectors. And what about folks who join the Navy or Coast Guard to avoid being a grunt on the front lines?

The navy has had boots on the ground in Iraq and afghanistan not sure of teh numbers now but it was about 20,000 at one time between the 2 countries

[PCS]

I'd sign up. Just like I put my name on the dotted line when I turned 18 with selective service. 2 1/2 years later I signed up for 4 years so that's obviously part of it. Mind you,when I was in,I was never under the impression that if sent in to action,I would be always be fighting for America's freedom. And if many of the conversations I had with others at the time and since then were/are any indication,I was hardly the only one. "American interests" or something along those lines was the term used many times. So yeah. I'd sign up. Mind you,I'm not a huge fan of the draft,(those notable exceptions not withstanding),but I would go.

[Bang]

Have you ever read Bonhoeffer's "Ethics"? While not a crudely put as you and he was also much more of a pacifist (a Christian Minster), that was pretty much his conclusion about Hitler and to some extent all war.

Never read it. Granted my example is to the extreme. But since we're playing in hypothetical situations, may as well show all sides of it.

I am a patriot in that I am loyal to the ideals of this country. If the leaders of my country do something that I don't consider in keeping with our ideals, I'd have to think about it. But it would have to be pretty bad, like the Nazi Germany scenario.

Many people went to Vietnam and died because the country asked them to. But the country had no reason to ask this sacrifice of them. As history shows, the Vietnam conflict was not about stopping communism, it was about money and corporate interests. And as we also see, Vietnam is a settled prosperous nation under the rule of those we so staunchly opposed.

We're not always justified in what we do.

~Bang

[zoony]

I don't think it's a very fair question. One of the BEST arguments in favor of a draft is it making it much, much, much harder for politicians to wage unpopular wars.

For instance, if the draft was in effect, no way in hell would Iraq EVER have happened. But if your military is made up of lower class kids from Oklahoma and West Virginia and Tennessee, no big deal. Send 'em off to fight. When you start getting upper crust kids from prominent families being conscripted into the military, politics tend to change in a hurry.

But to answer the question, not even taking the above into account... if I truly disagreed with a cause, I would be a medic if drafted.

......

[Forehead]

I don't think I would be drafted since I'm the only boy :whoknows:

Could be wrong, but I think it's a "surviving son" clause, not an "only son" clause. Meaning, you'd have to have one or more brothers who were killed in war to be ineligilbe. Being the only son doesn't get you out of it, if I'm correct.

Personally, I think some of you need to lay off ASF and others. Being a CO is perfectly legit, you can't tell someone how to feel about a war. Didn't they used to take CO's and make them medics or something, so they were still serving, just not firing weapons?

Anyway, I'd go. I signed my SS form when I was 18, and it's not a commitment I'd back out of. I don't have any particular inclination to fight in another country, or shoot people, or anything of that nature. But if the country needs to be defended, I'll do what part I can.

On a selfish note, I'm glad I'm beyond the drafting age, or at least beyond what it used to be. Having a pregnant wife and first child on the way, going away to war is the last thing I want to do, but I would do it if I was called.

[rumpshakers]

Join the fight...its the american thing to do... Love it or leave it.

[AsburySkinsFan]

I may be mistaken(don't think I am) but aren't you a guy that used to complain about the cost of filling up your gas guzzling truck that you drove a inordinate number of miles to and from work? You need someone to secure those oil wells for you...may as well be someone else's son.

I'm also the guy who now rides a 73 mpg scooter to work.:pfft:

[AsburySkinsFan]

Join the fight...its the american thing to do... Love it or leave it.

Fine I'll join the fight as soon as the person who sends the troops into war actually leads them into battle. The American thing to do is for some rich politician to send someone else's kid to kill and die so that politician can get a cushy job with stock options when he retires.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Why should someone who isn't willing to serve their country when called upon to do so be afforded the freedoms it provides?

I personally would like to herd up all these ******* who think freedom is free, take their asses and drop them off in the middle of some place where people aren't free so they can see first hand just how precious it is. Way too many people in the good ol US of A take freedom for granted because they've never had to live without it.

Yep, you are sounding more and more like the Nazis that Bang was describing, how American of you.:doh:

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

I think people confuse being drafted with meaning they will be on the front lines...

My father was drafted for Vietnam and they had him typing up reports since he was a good typer. His brother spent time in Thailand as an airplane mechanic on a base somewhere.

I dont think many of us would be fighting on the frontlines, they would have the paid military for that...they would probably use us draftees in other capacities.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Have you ever read Bonhoeffer's "Ethics"? While not a crudely put as you and he was also much more of a pacifist (a Christian Minster), that was pretty much his conclusion about Hitler and to some extent all war.

Bonhoeffer does provide an excellent glimpse into the mind of a pacifist in the midst of Nazi Germany. He maintained his pacifist ideals throughout the war until he had the opportunity to take part in the assassination plot against Hitler. He struggled with this for a long time, and even when he did take part, he did so knowing that his doing so was against his pacifism, but that it was an evil that could put an end to a much much greater evil. Keep in mind that he didn't advocate military service but instead he did understand that given the example of Hitler he felt that he should put his pacifism aside for an opportunity to eliminate Hitler. He was later jailed in a Nazi camp and was executed just a few days before the Allies liberated the camp.

I look to Bonhoeffer on this subject as well and the biggest thing that I take from him is that even though he took part in the assassination plot he never gave up on his pacifist ideals in that he always understood that what he was doing was an evil in and of itself but that it had the potential to end the greater evil. What I hear today out of Americans, Christian and non, is that fighting in war is understood as a good, not an evil...as righteous service, and I can't help but understand how against Jesus' command to love our enemies that represents.

[AsburySkinsFan]

I think people confuse being drafted with meaning they will be on the front lines...

Not me I am very familiar with the support role in the armed services, as a CO (conscientious objector) I cannot participate in any part of a war effort.

[BeerMuscles]

I would be a medic if drafted.

......

You think you have a choice:ols:

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

Not me I am very familiar with the support role in the armed services, as a CO (conscientious objector) I cannot participate in any part of a war effort.

So even if the Chinese or Russians had the US surrounded and were about to invade us with huge numbers that we couldnt account for, and it was looking like the USA would be no more, you still wouldnt participate?

[Duckus]

In 99.5% of scenarios - yes I would of course go.

However, if we are playing the hypothetical game where ANYTHING is possible then there would be situations in which I would not go (hence the 0.5%). If the US Government was involved in some sort of genocide I would not fight.

For those who said 100% yes, not matter any scenario - What about a civil war scenario where you are asking to invade a part of your own county?

[AsburySkinsFan]

So even if the Chinese or Russians had the US surrounded and were about to invade us with huge numbers that we couldnt account for, and it was looking like the USA would be no more, you still wouldnt participate?

No I would not. I'm a pacifist, my family and I would become refugees if anything. I might be convinced to supply the resistance with food, lodging etc. See the thing that most people don't understand is that I do not see my identity as being an American first and then everything else after, instead I am Christian first and then everything else after, and I can be a Christian in Russia, China, Africa or Nazi Germany, does that mean that I might pay with my life for my faith? Yes, but my life is comes second to my faith.

[Spec138]

Many people went to Vietnam and died because the country asked them to. But the country had no reason to ask this sacrifice of them. As history shows, the Vietnam conflict was not about stopping communism, it was about money and corporate interests. And as we also see, Vietnam is a settled prosperous nation under the rule of those we so staunchly opposed.

We're not always justified in what we do.

~Bang

I'm not really familiar with this. Do you have any links or something I can read? Sincere curiosity.

No I would not. I'm a pacifist, my family and I would become refugees if anything. I might be convinced to supply the resistance with food, lodging etc. See the thing that most people don't understand is that I do not see my identity as being an American first and then everything else after, instead I am Christian first and then everything else after, and I can be a Christian in Russia, China, Africa or Nazi Germany, does that mean that I might pay with my life for my faith? Yes, but my life is comes second to my faith.

Just a question I wanted to ask. Are you a CO to just military service? Would you work in some other capacity if possible?

Personally, I would fight if called upon as long as the entire "Hitler" scenario wasn't unfolding. Only thing I have a problem with would be COs to defensive service (i.e. The Commies have invaded our soil.)

[Bang]

I'm not really familiar with this. Do you have any links or something I can read? Sincere curiosity.

Not really any links in specific, if you just look over the history of the Vietnam conflict you'll see. Your library is filled with books on the subject, from the deepest conspiracy theories to the factors we know to be true. Vietnam was not a simple war, meaning who the enemy was and why they were the enemy wasn't necessarily something the spirit of our country opposed. (they were communist, and THAT we opposed, but their motives were much like our own revolution.)

To REALLY simplify it...

We had a lot of corporations doing business in Saigon, labor was cheap, overhead was low. American companies and our government had invested heavily in South Vietnam as a means to import raw and manufactured goods inexpensively. Ho Chi Minh and his guerrillas had been fighting for decades to unify their country and kick foreign investors out, which they accused of undermining their national interests and making their people puppets to serve the west.

The French controlled much of southeast Asia through centuries of colonization and did indeed exploit the people and natural resources.

We figured the French would continue their control and so we invested. But in the late 50s the Viet Minh (Ho Chi Minh's guerrilla army) defeated the French and threw them out of the country, leaving all of our investments vulnerable. If the Viet Minh had taken Saigon, the south would have fallen, and we'd have lost everything.

Our initial involvement was as advisers to south Vietnamese troops and to the puppet governments we kept propping up. (In the mid-60s the south vietnamese governments began a series of coups, and it stayed that way for the duration of the war. The South Vietnamese government was being thrown out and changed as often as people wash their hair, it seems.) When it became apparent that an advisory role was not going to be enough, we began the troop buildup. (The Gulf of Tonkin incident happened, or didn't happen, depending on which version of history you believe.. many think it was manufactured to give us a reason to land Marines. (The incident: North Vietnamese patrol boats torpedoed an American Cruiser in the Gulf of Tonkin, which were disputed territorial waters)

Once we landed Marines, we expected the fight to go fairly quickly, and when it didn't, Vietnam became a morass.. in other words,, we couldn't leave with our tails between our legs due to how it would appear on the world stage (we knew that the Soviets and Chinese were using North Vietnam as a proxy with which to fight us. They stayed back and out of harm's way, but the North was supplied and supported by both of the major Communist Bloc nations in Asia. So in essence we were fighting them, and no way we'd turn tail on that, because it would look as though we were defeated by a rag tag band of insurgents. Not exactly the image we cultivated.) And we couldn't say we were staying there to protect American corporate interests, so we officially made it into a fight to stanch the flow of communism. (Even though Communism was flowing much more freely in the western hemisphere throughout latin America.)

But by then the investments were largely lost anyway. On top of all that, we fought a tactically stupid war, with strategies not designed to win. Our commanders were incompetent, and not only did not realize their incompetence, but insisted things were going well when they were not. They preferred manipulating public opinion to actual victory. But that's another topic altogether.

~Bang

[ZoEd]

Yep, you are sounding more and more like the Nazis that Bang was describing, how American of you.:doh:

Awesome, don't forget I'm a bigot also.

Now why don't you come on down of your moral high horse that you seem to be riding today.

So I read some more of your posts and find it quite interesting that your a pacifist who don't want to fight in the military but you support telling someone who is currently in the military that they have to be accepting of homosexuals being allowed to serve. So you don't have a dog in the fight yet you feel that you should have a voice. Quite interesting. It's ******* like you that seem to be driving this train. I think I personally I would rather be a Natzi bigot.

[Prosperity]

meh I'd serve but I wouldn't like it.

[AsburySkinsFan]

I'm not really familiar with this. Do you have any links or something I can read? Sincere curiosity.

Just a question I wanted to ask. Are you a CO to just military service? Would you work in some other capacity if possible?

As a pacifist I am a CO.

Personally, I would fight if called upon as long as the entire "Hitler" scenario wasn't unfolding. Only thing I have a problem with would be COs to defensive service (i.e. The Commies have invaded our soil.)

Personal defense of home is an entirely different issue, but I am against war in all its forms.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Awesome, don't forget I'm a bigot also.

Now why don't you come on down of your moral high horse that you seem to be riding today.

So I read some more of your posts and find it quite interesting that your a pacifist who don't want to fight in the military but you support telling someone who is currently in the military that they have to be accepting of homosexuals being allowed to serve. So you don't have a dog in the fight yet you feel that you should have a voice. Quite interesting. It's ******* like you that seem to be driving this train. I think I personally I would rather be a Natzi bigot.

Sometimes no matter how many times people are told to play nice, it seems that some just don't get it.

You make the remarks that you want to gather up all of those who won't fight for the country and ship them off and you really don't want to be compared to Nazis? As far as homosexuals in the military, as long as I am a citizen and a tax payer then I am free to express my opinions about how my government operates and that includes the military. What's more is that you have an odd understanding about this whole service thing you volunteered for; see civilians don't serve you instead you serve the civilians, you as an armed service member are an extension of the will of the people, not the other way around. You as an armed service member reflect what the people say, and what your commanders order. If you don't get that or understand that then I suggest you remove the stripes from your uniform. And when the military is open for gays then you'll have a choice to make, stay and serve or join me in civilian life.

BTW, as I am a civilian aren't you supposed to call me sir?

[hkHog]

Many people went to Vietnam and died because the country asked them to. But the country had no reason to ask this sacrifice of them. As history shows, the Vietnam conflict was not about stopping communism, it was about money and corporate interests. And as we also see, Vietnam is a settled prosperous nation under the rule of those we so staunchly opposed.

We're not always justified in what we do.

~Bang

Well then go ahead and call WWI unjustified as well. One of the main reasons we entered WWI was because a bunch of New York bankers led by the pro-British J.P. Morgan and his son John Morgan leant millions of dollars to the allied powers. One of the primary reasons Washington got involved was because they realized that if Britain fell it would destroy the American banking sector and economy. When we did finally get involved and the war was won it helped to catapult the USA to the world's leading economy. Almost every war, justified or not, has more to do with economics and corporate interests than anything else.