Jerry Gray may never work in the NFL again.(Rooney Rule Discussion---MET)

[mcsluggo]

it is the perpetually deft cement mittens of the Redskins leadership that have caused harm. THe rooney rule is just one of the many many many tools at their disposal that they have used to this effect.

[Bang]

Bang's post falls apart when he uses the words "Dungy" and "quickly" in the same sentence. It took Dungy a solid decade to get a head coaching job. And then he was given arguably the worst job in the league.

The point is that the Rule was implemented in 2003, and in THAT short period of time minority coaches have won 2 out of the five Super Bowls.

In the short 6 years of the rule, Dungy, along with Tomlin and Smith have proven the obsolescence of the rule.

As I showed in my other post, Dungy's wait to become a head coach is just a smidgen longer than the current average, whereas everyone that the rule has benefited have waited half as long.

As to what the average wait was when Dungy got hired in TB is not something I've looked at, but I'd be willing to bet it's not too far off.

As to the notion that somehow he got "stuck" with the worst team in the NFL, well by all means, should Steve Spagnoulo sue to get a better offer than the Rams? How about Tony Sparano taking over the single win Dolphins,, maybe he should deserve a better opportunity, or shall we imply it was their Italian ancestry that got them saddled with such lousy teams?

~Bang

[DjTj]

It's quite obvious that there's definitely been a fast track put in place.The Rooney Rule takes the place of paying one's dues. The average time to get a job for everyone else is just a hair under 11 years.

Our Rooney Rule coaches average tenure is just about 6 years.

~Bang

So now you're claiming that white coaches are being passed over because of the Rooney Rule? Tomlin, Whisenhunt, and Grimm were all interviewed for that position, and I don't think Rooney hired Tomlin because of the color of his skin. To be fair though, Whisenhunt would probably have been a fine hire, although Tomlin is the one that walked away with the Lombardi. I don't think the Rooney Rule caused Lovie Smith or Jim Caldwell to be elevated over any white candidates either - those men were given a chance and they won their jobs.

The Rooney Rule requires owners to interview minority candidates - it doesn't require them to hire anyone.

And I think you're reading a lot more into the statistics than is there. Perhaps the black coaches have shorter NFL tenures because there is a recent trend in the NFL to hire younger coaches? John Harbaugh, Mike Smith, Sean Payton, Josh McDaniels ... a lot of the hottest coaches in the league right now are young, and almost all the black coaches have been hired in the past few years, when hiring young became the "in" thing.

(Also, you seem to have placed Marvin Lewis among the white coaches - his being passed over for several jobs was another motivating factor behind the Rooney Rule).

(Also, conveniently, the long-tenured Romeo Crennel (24 years) was fired last year while both Raheem Morris and Jim Caldwell were hired, skewing the average significantly)

You're reading a lot into very little data here.

The Rooney Rule is not supposed to cure cancer, and it's not supposed to solve race relations (although you'll notice that the first black President was elected after the Rooney Rule came into effect :paranoid: ). It has been successful in increasing the number of minority coaches, and I haven't seen a lot of complaining from any actual coaching candidates. By all accounts, it has achieved its goal with few negative side effects, and I would count that as a success.

[DjTj]

Irritated the heck out of me. So, I would rather be honestly interviewed than be a token that isn't being taken seriously and whom everyone including me knows is being used or taken advantage of.

That's not the choice LKB offered you - The question is whether you would rather have not been interviewed at all?

Jerry Gray had that choice, and he decided to do the interview. Maybe you would have gone another way, but he made his own choice, and he doesn't seem to complaining about how the Rooney Rule is demeaning and wasted his time.

Jerry Gray knew exactly what his interview was about, and he went along with it. That was his choice. Maybe if he thinks it's okay, we shouldn't feel bad for him? :whoknows:

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

All in all there is still racism against every race out there, that is a fact.

Racism without power is largely meaningless. I'm sorry you didn't get to play point guard in high school.

Again, the Rooney Rule is not meant to combat racism. I don't know why this is part of the discussion. The Rooney Rule is meant to combat corporate inertia.

More than anything, access is a problem in American society. You can believe the myth of Horatio Alger if you want, but we are pretty much as culturally stagnant as any European country. The class you are born into is probably the class you are going to die in.

There are probably any number of black students who can get into Harvard. The problem is they are in lousy schools with overworked guidance counselors and no after-school tutoring for the SAT.

You may like to believe that a kid who goes to Anacostia High has as much chance to make it as a kid from Sidwell Friends. But you are bull****ting yourself.

Access and opportunity are what matters. The Rooney Rule is one corporate entities attempt to deal with that issue.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Time for apples vs. oranges. I remember a time where I applied for a job, it was a pretty cool job and I was kind of excited. I got a fresh haircut, practiced answering interview questions, and researched both the company and some of the companies that company did business with.

Well, it turns out that they did interview me, but some other guy got the job. The thing is, the job was never actually open, but that they "held interviews" to satisfy EEOC stuff. It was a nepotism hire all the way.

Irritated the heck out of me. So, I would rather be honestly interviewed than be a token that isn't being taken seriously and whom everyone including me knows is being used or taken advantage of.

That interview had value.

I remember my college interviews. I was interviewing for a very good scholarship at a school I had very little interest in attending. Still, I decided to give it my best shot.

And I was awful. I was asked a question that surprised me, and I stumbled and stammered until I came up with an answer that made me look even dumber than the stumbling and stammering. After that, I was finished. I can't even remember what was asked.

But, for the next batch of interviews at the next college that I actually wanted to attend, I was prepared. And I nailed it.

Practice is good.

99 percent of the time, corporate America is bull****ting you when you are interviewed. I can't tell you how many interviews I've sat it where I knew that we weren't terribly interested in filling the satisfied position. We were killing time in order to make the argument that we don't need the position and can't find a qualified person anyway so let's distribute the responsibilities to other people and hey...we just saved you $70K a year. Maybe you should give me a raise for doing that.

[Elessar78]

Time for apples vs. oranges. I remember a time where I applied for a job, it was a pretty cool job and I was kind of excited. I got a fresh haircut, practiced answering interview questions, and researched both the company and some of the companies that company did business with.

Well, it turns out that they did interview me, but some other guy got the job. The thing is, the job was never actually open, but that they "held interviews" to satisfy EEOC stuff. It was a nepotism hire all the way.

Irritated the heck out of me. So, I would rather be honestly interviewed than be a token that isn't being taken seriously and whom everyone including me knows is being used or taken advantage of.

Been through that charade before too. Interviewed for a university job that wasn't really open. They already had the candidate they wanted to hire, but had to advertise it publicly since it was a public university.

I think the Rooney Rule is a good thing. In a league where 90% of the players are black and the head coaches are less than 50% (much less before the 90s) there WAS something wrong. The NFL isn't forcing teams to hire black or minority coaches. Just interview.

Some teams will skirt the rule and some teams will use it as a genuine means of expanding their candidate pool.

There's nothing reverse racist about requiring one minority candidate be interviewed. There's no limit on the number of interviewees a company can bring in. Now if there was a quota on how many minority head coaches there had to be in the league, then you'd have an argument.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

And I think you're reading a lot more into the statistics than is there. Perhaps the black coaches have shorter NFL tenures because there is a recent trend in the NFL to hire younger coaches? John Harbaugh, Mike Smith, Sean Payton, Josh McDaniels ... a lot of the hottest coaches in the league right now are young, and almost all the black coaches have been hired in the past few years, when hiring young became the "in" thing.

The big change in the last ten years is how unimportant actually playing football has become in the process. Football followed that antiquted baseball model that the best coaches had to be average players in the NFL or D-1. Then they had to pay their dues for a million years in lousy coaching jobs. And then, after 20 years, you were finally allowed to run a team.

[Mooka]

It's quite obvious that there's definitely been a fast track put in place.The Rooney Rule takes the place of paying one's dues. The average time to get a job for everyone else is just a hair under 11 years.

Our Rooney Rule coaches average tenure is just about 6 years.

~Bang

That's a bit flawed because young head coaches is a fad today in the NFL.

Never in any other era of football do you have so many guys coaching like Tomlin, Whisenhunt, McDaniels, Lane Kiffin, etc.

Now way Raheem Morris is a head coach without the success of guys like Tomlin and Whisenhunt.

[December90]

There is no quota and teams can hire and fire whoever they want. Please don't cut and paste affirmative action arguments into this thread. The Rooney rule at MOST, it's absolute worst case scenario, is that it wastes a small amount of the owner and GM's time. That creates opportunity for those that were not getting hired very often previously.

If the Rooney Rule is so good, then why stop at "Black"

You must interview one Indian Candidate, One Italian, One South American, One Pacific Islander, etc...etc...

What about Sex discrimination, shouldn't we then force teams to interview female coaching candidates.

If a team has their heart set on a black candidate are they forced to interview a white candidate?

As for those who throw out Tomlin as a Rooney Rule success story, give me a break he did not get the job because of the Rooney Rule, he got the job because of the Rooney family.

[December90]

...

I think the Rooney Rule is a good thing. In a league where 90% of the players are black and the head coaches are less than 50% (much less before the 90s) there WAS something wrong. The NFL isn't forcing teams to hire black or minority coaches. Just interview.

So you are saying that the NFL is inherently Racist against non-black players. How can such a relatively small segment of the overall population make up such a large percentage of the players in the league. We need a Senate investigation into the Racism of the NFL.

[Burgold]

That's not the choice LKB offered you - The question is whether you would rather have not been interviewed at all?

Jerry Gray had that choice, and he decided to do the interview. Maybe you would have gone another way, but he made his own choice, and he doesn't seem to complaining about how the Rooney Rule is demeaning and wasted his time.

Jerry Gray knew exactly what his interview was about, and he went along with it. That was his choice. Maybe if he thinks it's okay, we shouldn't feel bad for him? :whoknows:

That's why I called it apples and oranges, but to answer it bluntly. If I knew it was a phony interview I'd rather not have the "opportunity" and I'd rather not others think of me as a guy who allows himself to be used and doesn't need to be taken seriously

Oh, and I agree with you. Jerry Gray made a different choice and apparently is cool with it. So, that's okay with me on that level.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

That's why I called it apples and oranges, but to answer it bluntly. If I knew it was a phony interview I'd rather not have the "opportunity" and I'd rather not others think of me as a guy who allows himself to be used and doesn't need to be taken seriously

My guess is that on 90 percent of the interviews you've had in your life, you never had a realistic chance. That's the nature of the process.

[DjTj]

If the Rooney Rule is so good, then why stop at "Black"

You must interview one Indian Candidate, One Italian, One South American, One Pacific Islander, etc...etc...

What about Sex discrimination, shouldn't we then force teams to interview female coaching candidates.

There is no reason to believe that NFL teams in 2003 were discriminating against Indian, Italian, South American, or Pacific Islander candidates. There were no females applying for NFL head coaching positions.

There were reasons to believe that black coaches were being passed over, so they implemented the Rooney Rule.

If a team has their heart set on a black candidate are they forced to interview a white candidate?

No.

As for those who throw out Tomlin as a Rooney Rule success story, give me a break he did not get the job because of the Rooney Rule, he got the job because of the Rooney family.

He got an interview because of the Rooney Rule. He got the job because of the Rooney family.

P.S. We have a Rooney Rule because of the Rooney family.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

By the way, the real problem is STILL in college football. Though they have started to kind of sort of get their act together.

120 D-1 programs. 10 black head coaches. 4 in BCS conferences.

Mike Locksley - University of New Mexico Lobos (Mountain West)

Turner Gill - University of Kansas Jayhawks (Big 12)

Kevin Sumlin - University of Houston Cougars (Conference USA)

Randy Shannon - University of Miami Hurricanes (ACC)

Mike London - University of Virginia Cavaliers (ACC)

Charlie Strong - University of Louisville Cardinals (Big East)

DeWayne Walker - University of New Mexico State Aggies (WAC)

Larry Porter - University of Memphis Tigers (Conference USA)

Mike Haywood - University of Miami (Ohio) Redskins (MAC)

Ron English - University of Eastern Michigan Eagles (MAC)

Willie Taggart - University of Western Kentucky Hilltoppers (Sun Belt)

[Mania]

The rooney rule itself is a joke and we all know that. I'm all for equal opportunity but the Rooney Rule has nothing to do with equal opportunity.

If anything it just makes things more divided. There are black NFL coaches now, quite a few of them doing well. A Rooney rule isn't going to work for any hire. If the coach is black and has a better resume or fits better with the team then he should be hired. If the white guy is better... no need to interview a black guy or vice versa.

I do like Gray... although as of late his players have been getting torched left and right.

If it weren't for the Rooney Rule, Mike Tomlin wouldn't be a HC of the Steelers.

[ciscofan]

I honestly think this won't hurt Gray all that much.

The rooney rule is crazy. If a team knows who they want to hire, especially guys like Allen and Shanny who are both proven and have already held the positions, then they should not HAVE to interview a minority candidate.

[Bang]

So now you're claiming that white coaches are being passed over because of the Rooney Rule? Tomlin, Whisenhunt, and Grimm were all interviewed for that position, and I don't think Rooney hired Tomlin because of the color of his skin. To be fair though, Whisenhunt would probably have been a fine hire, although Tomlin is the one that walked away with the Lombardi. I don't think the Rooney Rule caused Lovie Smith or Jim Caldwell to be elevated over any white candidates either - those men were given a chance and they won their jobs.

No, I'm claiming the rule is not necessary.

I'm not saying anyone has been passed up, there's only 32 of these jobs to begin with. When a hire is made, it's made with the best intention for the tem in mind (one should expect), and like you say, the rule does not require anyone be hired, merely interviewed.

My problem with it aside from it being unnecessary in the NFL is that it does tokenize people no matter how anyone slices it. The days in which race was questioned in sports is all but gone, and has been erased not because of changing attitudes, but by the players and coaches themselves proving it. There may be a lot of FANS out there who will question a black quarterback's ability, but I doubt there's many GMs or coaches who would. As far as coaches go, sure it was a problem in the past, but now after the immediate rash of success among minority coaches since it's inception, the proof is in the putting. I don't think anyone in the NFL has to be forced to consider a young coach like Tomlin anymore, conversely, I think they are now actively looking for young guys like Tomlin, no matter what color he may be.

The Rooney Rule requires owners to interview minority candidates - it doesn't require them to hire anyone.

Right.

And I think you're reading a lot more into the statistics than is there. Perhaps the black coaches have shorter NFL tenures because there is a recent trend in the NFL to hire younger coaches? John Harbaugh, Mike Smith, Sean Payton, Josh McDaniels ... a lot of the hottest coaches in the league right now are young, and almost all the black coaches have been hired in the past few years, when hiring young became the "in" thing.

Well, it would appear so,, Harbaugh's 46, not really young, and he'd been an assistant for 10 years before he got the job. Mike Smith is 50 and was an NFL asst. for 9 years. Payton is also 46, and been an NFL asst for 9 years. Mike Tomlin is almost ten years younger at 37, and had only been an assistant for 6 years. McDaniels just seems to be a whiz kid.

(Also, you seem to have placed Marvin Lewis among the white coaches - his being passed over for several jobs was another motivating factor behind the Rooney Rule).

I didn't separate them by color, more to the fact that Marvin was not a Rooney hire. You could say that he was hired in the same year it was implemented, but he was long considered a to be someone's next head coach before he left Washington. In fact, as I recall he all but had the job in Tampa when he took our DC job because we offered him like five times the money.

(Also, conveniently, the long-tenured Romeo Crennel (24 years) was fired last year while both Raheem Morris and Jim Caldwell were hired, skewing the average significantly)

You're reading a lot into very little data here.

The Rooney Rule is not supposed to cure cancer, and it's not supposed to solve race relations (although you'll notice that the first black President was elected after the Rooney Rule came into effect :paranoid: ). It has been successful in increasing the number of minority coaches, and I haven't seen a lot of complaining from any actual coaching candidates. By all accounts, it has achieved its goal with few negative side effects, and I would count that as a success.

I'm not complaining about the inception of the rule. I'm saying it has been proven obsolete.

The most important stat of them all is in the last six years since implementation five super bowls have been played and minority coaches have won 2 of them. That is more than enough to adjust owners thinking. (Nevermind another minority has the Colts 13-1,, and probably could have gone undefeated had he left his starters in)

The rule has done what it was intended to do, It was intended to get these men a chance, and the chance has been seized and results have been posted. Anyone who wants to win will take note, and I'd think at least 30 of these teams really want to win. (Not sure about the Rams..)

I think to continue to use the rule after such success only adds to the number of times guys like Jerry Grey will take that interview for a job he knows he has no chance of getting over someone else who is all but assured the job (like here with the Shanahan rumors.)

~Bang

[Jumbo]

The rule doesn't say "black" it says "minority." The minority candidates currently qualified tend to be of the African American. If there were women candidates, or there actual Asian candidates, they would be covered under the rule as written. "Italian" is not a minority in this context, nor is "people under 5'8", nor is "yodelers."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooney_Rule

http://national-football-league-nfl.suite101.com/article.cfm/what_is_the_rooney_rule

And there there is an extensive NYU/Law analysis on the topic in PDF if you google "nfl's rooney rule" and an audio discussion here:

http://www.acslaw.org/node/2106

as well as another same-topic PDF file on that same acslaw site

[War Paint]

Just out of curiosity, why is there a lot of buzz about Jerry Gray anyways? I keep reading different things on different sites and he's touted as a potential gem for HC. Has he even called plays before? I don't know. Maybe I'm overlooking something.

[Bat~man]

Racism without power is largely meaningless.

Stopped reading there, told me everything I needed to know about you.

Take care

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

The Rooney Rule requires owners to interview minority candidates - it doesn't require them to hire anyone.

It seems like people don't get this. Why, I have no idea.

Racism without power is largely meaningless. I'm sorry you didn't get to play point guard in high school.

Again' date=' the Rooney Rule is not meant to combat racism. I don't know why this is part of the discussion. The Rooney Rule is meant to combat corporate inertia.

More than anything, access is a problem in American society. You can believe the myth of Horatio Alger if you want, but we are pretty much as culturally stagnant as any European country. The class you are born into is probably the class you are going to die in.

There are probably any number of black students who can get into Harvard. The problem is they are in lousy schools with overworked guidance counselors and no after-school tutoring for the SAT.

You may like to believe that a kid who goes to Anacostia High has as much chance to make it as a kid from Sidwell Friends. But you are bull****ting yourself.

Access and opportunity are what matters. The Rooney Rule is one corporate entities attempt to deal with that issue.[/quote']

Great post. I think a lot of the opponents of this, and other race-related issues, live in a bubble and thus don't grasp the realities of society. I'm also waiting for the accompanying "My best friend/co-worker/brother in law/etc is black" line. Should be in the thread any minute now.

And to be clear, not all opponents live in said bubble. Burgold, Bang, and others have legitimate agruments against it. I just don't agree with them.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Stopped reading there, told me everything I needed to know about you.

Take care

How tall am I?

[Jumbo]

How tall am I?

Need To Know Only

:cool:

[Bat~man]

It seems like people don't get this. Why, I have no idea.

Great post. I think a lot of the opponents of this, and other race-related issues, live in a bubble and thus don't grasp the realities of society. I'm also waiting for the accompanying "My best friend/co-worker/brother in law/etc is black" line. Should be in the thread any minute now.

And to be clear, not all opponents live in said bubble. Burgold, Bang, and others have legitimate agruments against it. I just don't agree with them.

Racism aside, noone will ever agree on those issues, and they shouldn't because it is still an issue everywhere.

My thing is, the Rooney rule is supposed to help elevate a minority to a position he might not otherwise be in, but at what cost?

If you are going to belittle others by making them interview for a job they don't have a chance at getting and, in Grays case, bring negative press that may cause him to have issues getting a better job himself, well how is that helping the overall problem?

It really shouldn't be a trade off to where some people might start getting screwed while others get jobs, it obviously isn't this way right now, but, after Snyder pulled this stunt, the gate is open. Something should be worked out to correct it before it becomes a real issue.