Jerry Gray may never work in the NFL again.(Rooney Rule Discussion---MET)

[clarkskin]

For one, the coaching carousel does not need to be balanced. We're talking about 32 jobs in total to be had, and the men elevated to those jobs are already making a better living than the majority of people in the country. The Rooney Rule isn't righting any social injustices, nor is it assisting people who are otherwise downtrodden.

The very fact that Tomlin, Lovie Smith, and Tony Dungy have enjoyed such success so quickly renders the rule obsolete.

The point has been emphatically made by these men. If any one of the 32 owners still would sacrifice potentially winning and all the cash that comes along with it by allowing race to cloud their judgment, then they are the ones who pay the price of inevitable failure, not the minority they would be forced to consider.

Not to mention that the Jerry Gray situation points out how insulting it can be to force these men to play party to an obvious tokenization. It requires a focus be made on their color, and their ability is secondary.

~Bang

Well put.

[MattFancy]

Well put Bang. Can't argue with you.

[C26 Run]

Blache clammed up many many weeks ago. Do you really think he interviewed for the job back then, and that the interview was the reason for the media silence? My sense is that the interview was later in the season.

I actually do think that's when the interview took place. Zorn has said on the record to CSN that he began to get the feeling that he wouldn't return after this season, just after winning the Rams game.

My hunch is that Snyder asked Blache first to be the head coach. Blache refused because he was already a head coach and doesn't want that trouble again.

Blache never had a problem speaking to the media before then. One ES member even started a thread based on Blache quotes. I think Snyder wanted Shanahan since a couple of seasons ago but took Vinnys' advice on Zorn. Also Shanahan wasn't ready to come back.

:helmet:

[mcsluggo]

dude, spare me. you starting this thread with "as an african-american" shows why race is still an issue, "minorities" use their race as an ADVANTAGE to get where THEY feel they are qualified. period. anyone who will question it, quickly labeled RACIST and fired/sued/fined/etc.

sooner or later you will need 25% latino 25% black 25% female and 25% gay in every organization in America.

awwww... have the big scwary rules hurt your panties...? It really is crying shame that white men are so persecuted.

race is still an issue because there are still PLENTY of racists. A few extremely so... but much more often these days people are just a little bit so, which often is just enough.

Do rules like this improve the situation...? I don't know.

Are white men disadvantaged in this country...? spare ME the whining

[C26 Run]

For one, the coaching carousel does not need to be balanced. We're talking about 32 jobs in total to be had, and the men elevated to those jobs are already making a better living than the majority of people in the country. The Rooney Rule isn't righting any social injustices, nor is it assisting people who are otherwise downtrodden.

The very fact that Tomlin, Lovie Smith, and Tony Dungy have enjoyed such success so quickly renders the rule obsolete.

The point has been emphatically made by these men. If any one of the 32 owners still would sacrifice potentially winning and all the cash that comes along with it by allowing race to cloud their judgment, then they are the ones who pay the price of inevitable failure, not the minority they would be forced to consider.

Not to mention that the Jerry Gray situation points out how insulting it can be to force these men to play party to an obvious tokenization. It requires a focus be made on their color, and their ability is secondary.

~Bang

You can't include Dungy in this argument because he was a head coach long before the Rooney rule was established. I do agree with you on the owners point. Point well taken.

My point is that the NFL should do a better job of enforcing this policy. The Rooney rule is very important. Let's look at it like this: Tomlin wasn't the favorite to land the Steelers job. The front runners were Whisenhunt and Grimm. Mike Tomlin came in and blew away the interview. Tomlin wouldn't gotten that interview if it weren't for the Rooney rule.

:helmet:

[Touch of Class 17]

Bang makes some good points, but you are applying rational thought to the irrational disease of racism. If the only color that matters is green, then most would take whomever gives them the best chance to get more green. But there irrational part of racism says I would rather go broke than allow that type of person to coach, quarterback or even play for my team. I remember going to RFK 9/13/1987 and watching Doug Williams come out to play against the eagles. I heard Redskins fans say terrible things about Williams, none of it having to do with his play on the field. Rational thinking would have said "hey he's leading our team to victory, doesn't matter what color he is" unfortunately there was a great deal of irrational thinking in our section.

[Bat~man]

awwww... have the big scwary rules hurt your panties...? It really is crying shame that white men are so persecuted.

race is still an issue because there are still PLENTY of racists. A few extremely so... but much more often these days people are just a little bit so, which often is just enough.

Do rules like this improve the situation...? I don't know.

Are white men disadvantaged in this country...? spare ME the whining

I think the white/black thing is old news to be honest.

If you wanna go to a country wide thing, every man has the same chance to get an education and succeed, sure there may be cases where a black man doesn't get a job because of race, but if he is educated then he will not go long without a job.

White men have plenty of disadvantages tho, there are no sole college funds set up strictly for them, there isn't a month out of every year dedicated to their history, there is no rule saying they should be given the chance to play any sport dominated by minority players....it's all silly really.

Racism is out there, there is also a lot of racism against teenage white males living/growing up/attending schools dominated by minorities, I experienced PLENTY of it growing up and going to William Fleming High School, by students, unfair treatment by teachers/coaches. It is what it is.

Racism is a horrible thing, and no matter the success this rule has, you can't deny that it has some really harmful side effects.

[seriously]

Great argument. Any other group completely not involved in coaching that you want to argue that supporters of the Rooney rule should also support? I just want to see how big the straw man you are building can get.

equal opportunity, why not?

[seriously]

Now you're being annoying AND absurd.

you're just being an idiot. it's about being equal in which this is not. to say it is just shows how stupid YOU are.

why should any one group have ANY advantage in requirements for jobs? nothing should be gender/race/religion based, NOTHING.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Bang's post falls apart when he uses the words "Dungy" and "quickly" in the same sentence. It took Dungy a solid decade to get a head coaching job. And then he was given arguably the worst job in the league.

[mcsluggo]

I think the white/black thing is old news to be honest.

If you wanna go to a country wide thing, every man has the same chance to get an education and succeed, sure there may be cases where a black man doesn't get a job because of race, but if he is educated then he will not go long without a job.

White men have plenty of disadvantages tho, there are no sole college funds set up strictly for them, there isn't a month out of every year dedicated to their history, there is no rule saying they should be given the chance to play any sport dominated by minority players....it's all silly really.

Racism is out there, there is also a lot of racism against teenage white males living/growing up/attending schools dominated by minorities, I experienced PLENTY of it growing up and going to William Fleming High School, by students, unfair treatment by teachers/coaches. It is what it is.

Racism is a horrible thing, and no matter the success this rule has, you can't deny that it has some really harmful side effects.

unfortunately, it is not completely old news, as of yet. But we should all be happy that things really have improved immensely. I am mostly unmoved by the complaints about black specific scholarships, etc... but it is absolutely true that racist attitudes go both ways. Racists of all complexions are constantly building up an arsenal of perceived injustices that they can use as justification for swinging hard in the other direction. I wish more people were more concerned about THEIR OWN actions, rather than constantly feeling slighted.

the Bill Cosby's of the world make some black whiners really uncomfortable (and frankly, in a good way)... but then THE EXACT EQUIVALENT white-whiners get delighted and jump up and down giggling like little schoolgirls while they point and say "EXACTLY!!!!"... all the while whining about white purveyors of "white guilt".

I get very tired of the whining finger pointing on both sides EXCEPT when people are saying what THEY THEMSELVES should be doing to make things better.

[Burgold]

My problem with the Rooney rule is that the loophole in it is wide enough to drive the Death Star through. It makes for token interviews and the observance of this rule (as seen in the Jerry Gray example) has no teeth. If you create a rule that no one follows or fears what's its value.

I do think that the rule comes from a good place, but it has become something dumb.

[mcsluggo]

you're just being an idiot. it's about being equal in which this is not. to say it is just shows how stupid YOU are.

why should any one group have ANY advantage in requirements for jobs? nothing should be gender/race/religion based, NOTHING.

and yet... when the market is left entirely to its own devices there still IS a statistically significant bias against minorities. Saying it shouldn't be so doesn't make it NOT so.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I think the white/black thing is old news to be honest.

That is great news.

If you wanna go to a country wide thing, every man has the same chance to get an education and succeed, sure there may be cases where a black man doesn't get a job because of race, but if he is educated then he will not go long without a job.

Ha!!!!

White men have plenty of disadvantages tho, there are no sole college funds set up strictly for them, there isn't a month out of every year dedicated to their history, there is no rule saying they should be given the chance to play any sport dominated by minority players....it's all silly really.

White people truly have it hard. Do you know that white people only control 99 percent of the Senate at the moment? Seriously, how did we lose that 1 percent?

[Bang]

How can you say that with so much confidence?

Because there ARE only 32 head coaching jobs in the NFL.

The fact is they aren't tilling around looking for any old candidate, the people that are being considered are assistant coaches in the league or very highly regarded coaches from big time college programs, and I very much doubt any of them work anywhere near the poverty line.

These are elite jobs, and the candidates are elite people. This rule does nothing to stop the police from pulling over young black men in new cars, or stop any security people from following them around any stores. In fact, it doesn't correct any social injustices at all, except among people already making a comfortable living.

Tomlin and Smith were hired after the Rule was implemented. Tony Dungy's long wait for a head coaching job was one of the main reasons the rule was considered in the first place. The rule was made because of these men.

No, if that logic is to be used the rule was made because of Dungy. Fact is Dungy spent 14 years in the ranks of assistants before getting his shot with Tampa Bay, which is just a little over the average, and certainly not unusual by any standard set byt the league.

By contrast to show how interminably long this must have been, Bill Walsh spent 11 years as an assistant in the NFL before finally being named head coach of the 49ers (actually, after 8 years and seeing someone else named head coach of the Bengals ahead of him pushed Walsh out of the NFL altogether for 3 years.) (Arguably the greatest offensive mind in history.)

But in just sticking with current coaches..

Tom Coughlin also spent 11 years as an assistant.

Bill Bellicheck spent 15 years as an assistant until he got a job with the Browns.

Rex Ryan spent 15 years as an assistant as well before getting the Jets job.

Gary Kubiak- 12 years

John Fox- 12 years

Ken Whisenhunt- 10 years

Wade Phillips- 17 years before he got his first head coaching job.

Ray Childress -19 years from his first NFL job to his first head coaching opportunity.

The fact that there has been so much success is such a short period of time by minority candidates does indeed render the rule obsolete. In fact, these non-minority men who had to pay their dues for decades don't have the same fast-track opportunity.

But the owner isn't the only person with a stake in each team. The fans, the players, and the rest of the NFL benefit from having competent owners. We all suffer when Dan Snyder makes poor decisions.

No we don't, not in any tangible form. If you are a seller of fan gear you could maybe argue that, but we as fans only suffer with what we're willing to put up with, and how much anguish we allow something like a pro football team is entirely voluntary.

Simple fact,, we fans love our team, but our team doesn't give two ****s about us. We could live or die, and it won't matter.

The NFL has an interest in helping its owners make the right decisions. Is the Rooney Rule perfect? I don't think so, but I do think that some kind of clear message needed to be sent at that time (around 2003). Maybe a strongly worded statement would have done the job, but the Rooney Rule has worked just fine with no tangible downside as far as I can tell.

well, by all means, why no outcries for helping out the Ray Childress' of the world back then? Why did it take nearly 20 years for him to get a shot?

The drawback is very simple. These guys are given a fast track because of their color. Their ability is secondary in securing the interview.

As compared to the number of years that many current coaches had to wait to get a shot, Lovie Smith got his shot in 8 years, Mike Tomlin in a mere SIX years.

Jim Caldwell worked in the NFL for 6 years before being named successor to Tony Dungy, and I don't think they had to consider anyone else to fulfill any rule.

Hardly seems fair to guys waiting a decade or more.

It bothers me when people raise the tokenization issue while the "token" himself is not complaining. When Dungy and Smith made the Super Bowl, they did not complain that there was too much focus on their color; they celebrated it. Jerry Gray has not said a word about his race ... he is clearly uncomfortable with the whole situation, but there is nothing to indicate that his discomfort comes from his own race.

Why should the token complain? They might hit the magic lotto number that jumps them over other qualified candidates who have much longer records of experience. Who wants to wait ten years for the brass ring when the rule can give it to you in five?

From what I can tell, the black coaches who have been a part of the Rooney Rule have been perfectly comfortable with the process. We don't need to feel sorry for them or project feelings of tokenization on them. I think they know that they are black, that being black was part of getting them an interview, and they don't see anything wrong with that. Why are we making a much bigger deal out of it than they are? Don't sit around feeling sorry for the poor minorities - they can think for themselves and they all seem to support the Rooney Rule.

Of course, one also has to consider that the NFL in all of it's infinite wisdom wouldn't want their tokens sounding off about how insulting it is to be called for a job they are not going to get, just to satisfy a rule, especially when the carrot of a job that can be gotten in half the time of other coaches is swinging in front of them.

Rather than cherry pick a few coaches, I looked up all of the current NFL coaches and their NFL coaching experience, and how long until they got their first NFL job (not as a ball boy or something, but as a scout or assistant coach) until they became an NFL head coach.

Dick Juaron - (began 09 as the Bills coach) 14 years

Tony Sparano- 6 years

Jim Harbaugh- 10 years

Marvin Lewis -11 years

Eric Mangini- 10 years

Tom Coughlin 11 years.

Bill Bellicheck -15 years.

Rex Ryan -15 years

Gary Kubiak- 12 years

Todd Haley- 14 years

Jack Del Rio- 6 years

John Fox- 12 years

Ken Whisenhunt- 10 years

Wade Phillips- 17 years

Ray Childress -19 years

Jeff fisher- 10 years

Josh McDaniels- 7 years

Norv Turner- 9 years

Tom Cable 3 years ...this is the shortest tenure in the league but lets face it,, no one else wants that job in Oakland. He was defaulted into it.)

Andy Reid- 8 years

Jim Zorn- 11 Years

Jim Schwartz- 16 years

Mike McCarthy- 13 years

Sean Payton - 9 years

Mike Smith - 9 years

Steve Spagnoulo- 10 years

Jim Mora Jr- 9 years.

Mike Tomlin- 6 years

Mike Singletary- 5 years

Raheem Morris - 5 years

Lovie Smith - 8 years

Jim Caldwell - 6 years

It's quite obvious that there's definitely been a fast track put in place.The Rooney Rule takes the place of paying one's dues. The average time to get a job for everyone else is just a hair under 11 years.

Our Rooney Rule coaches average tenure is just about 6 years.

~Bang

[Bat~man]

unfortunately, it is not completely old news, as of yet. But we should all be happy that things really have improved immensely. I am mostly unmoved by the complaints about black specific scholarships, etc... but it is absolutely true that racist attitudes go both ways. Racists of all complexions are constantly building up an arsenal of perceived injustices that they can use as justification for swinging hard in the other direction. I wish more people were more concerned about THEIR OWN actions, rather than constantly feeling slighted.

the Bill Cosby's of the world make some black whiners really uncomfortable (and frankly, in a good way)... but then THE EXACT EQUIVALENT white-whiners get delighted and jump up and down giggling like little schoolgirls while they point and say "EXACTLY!!!!"... all the while whining about white purveyors of "white guilt".

I get very tired of the whining finger pointing on both sides EXCEPT when people are saying what THEY THEMSELVES should be doing to make things better.

Why are you unmoved by the scholarships? If this country is to be equal then there should be equal resources available to all.

There are plenty of kids of ALL races out there who would love to go to college but simply can't afford it. I am not complaining tho, I'm simply showing you that there are options out there for everyone to succeed no matter what race.

You're right we should be happy it has come so far, but it will never be eliminated, but neither will murder, rape, theft, pedophiles, cancer...and apparently the common cold =p

We don't need to go through as many great lengths as was once necessary or there will be more problems created than problems eliminated.

I'm not sure if you was taking a jab at me because of what I said about my high school, so I won't comment on that.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I do think that the rule comes from a good place, but it has become something dumb.

Again, the rule was not designed to create some sort of perfect quota system. It was designed to get black coaches an opportunity to be seen as head coaching candidates. That's it. That's the intent.

Even if Jerry Gray was given a "token" interview, there is value in that. He gets the experience of an interview. His name is now out there among other owners and GMs. Maybe he impresses Snyder like Tomlin impressed Rooney.

Is it better for Gray to NEVER be interviewed?

[Bat~man]

That is great news.

Ha!!!!

White people truly have it hard. Do you know that white people only control 99 percent of the Senate at the moment? Seriously' date=' how did we lose that 1 percent?[/quote']

I won't even comment on this rubbish because it was obviously taken the wrong way.

**edit** Actually, how much of the US population does the Senate consist of? Not all that much, if you would like to argue that a white guy doesn't experience racism you better come with a better argument than this weak crap.

All in all, there is an overwhelming amount of resources in the world for every race out there to succeed with a little effort and desire.

All in all there is still racism against every race out there, that is a fact.

[mcsluggo]

Why are you unmoved by the scholarships? If this country is to be equal then there should be equal resources available to all.

There are plenty of kids of ALL races out there who would love to go to college but simply can't afford it. I am not complaining tho, I'm simply showing you that there are options out there for everyone to succeed no matter what race.

You're right we should be happy it has come so far, but it will never be eliminated, but neither will murder, rape, theft, pedophiles, cancer...and apparently the common cold =p

We don't need to go through as many great lengths as was once necessary or there will be more problems created than problems eliminated.

I'm not sure if you was taking a jab at me because of what I said about my high school, so I won't comment on that.

no jabbing at all... I was agreeing with you on that aspect

[seriously]

I won't even comment on this rubbish because it was obviously taken the wrong way.

**edit** Actually, how much of the US population does the Senate consist of? Not all that much, if you would like to argue that a white guy doesn't experience racism you better come with a better argument than this weak crap.

All in all, there is an overwhelming amount of resources in the world for every race out there to succeed with a little effort and desire.

All in all there is still racism against every race out there, that is a fact.

well you could just say "black people control 100% of the presidency" :hysterical:

[Bat~man]

no jabbing at all... I was agreeing with you

Ahh ok, I apologize.

[Bat~man]

*edit**

I screwed up the quote

Anyway, VERY good info Bang, thank you for the research.

[Burgold]

Is it better for Gray to NEVER be interviewed?

Time for apples vs. oranges. I remember a time where I applied for a job, it was a pretty cool job and I was kind of excited. I got a fresh haircut, practiced answering interview questions, and researched both the company and some of the companies that company did business with.

Well, it turns out that they did interview me, but some other guy got the job. The thing is, the job was never actually open, but that they "held interviews" to satisfy EEOC stuff. It was a nepotism hire all the way.

Irritated the heck out of me. So, I would rather be honestly interviewed than be a token that isn't being taken seriously and whom everyone including me knows is being used or taken advantage of.

[MWCREDSKINS]

It's ridicuolus that this ever leaked. I don't have a problem with the Rooney Rule though it is unfair to make someone go through an interview if the team already knows who they are going to hire like the Redskins do in this case. Now Gray's name is out there unfairly. I wouldn't be surprised if he stays on Shanahan's staff though

[Bat~man]

It's ridicuolus that this ever leaked. I don't have a problem with the Rooney Rule though it is unfair to make someone go through an interview if the team already knows who they are going to hire like the Redskins do in this case. Now Gray's name is out there unfairly. I wouldn't be surprised if he stays on Shanahan's staff though

This is kinda my view on it, the intention of the rule was good, but it has created some harm.

If even ONE person passes Gray up because of this, then the rule has worked against itself.