If Michael Jordan evolutionized the game, what are players like Kobe Bryant...

[Ray Brown]

I think Lebron is a great player. I don't like his personality at all. He is childish and seems a bit full of himself.

I'm assuming your a Wizards fan? If not sorry. I can understand where you're coming from with Lebron attitude wise, and at times he seems extremely childish. If you don't like him for those reasons, how can you root for guys like Gilbert Arenas, or others who share similar attitudes?

With Lebron i can look past that because of what he is capable of doing on the court.

[TGI Jef]

i would also argue, on a side note, that Allen Iverson has done as much to change the game's image and appeal as anyone other than Jordan.

his image and his style of play brought a HUGE new audience to the nba, and at the same time turned an entire audience off. good or bad - huge impact left by AI.

[Ray Brown]

i would also argue, on a side note, that Allen Iverson has done as much to change the game's image and appeal as anyone other than Jordan.

his image and his style of play brought a HUGE new audience to the nba, and at the same time turned an entire audience off. good or bad - huge impact left by AI.

AI was one of the guys who kept the league afloat while we waited for the new influx of great young players. He truly has left a mark on the game, and his ability to carry 2 awful 76ers teams to finals reflects that.

[Chachie]

Will you guys explain to me on how Kobe is trying to be like MJ?

He has settled into his own personality these days and has earned the respect he has now but if you go look at old interviews of Kobe and watch how he used to play, it's undeniable that he was trying to slip right into MJ's role in the league. Dude used to talk exactly like Michael Jordan. To a tee.

So my point was that he's a freaking marvelous player technically but it's my humble opinion (although I stand pat on it) that he just followed MJ's yellow brick road. He didn't pave anything new. He even had MJ's coach and the most dynamic center in basketball to ride that road with him.

[Brad_Edwards_Fan]

As great as Jordan was, i think that often times his greatness tarnishes the legacy of those he played with. That 93-94 team without jordan still won 55 games and made a took the knicks to game 7 in the playoffs. Even without Jordan they were still a pretty solid team.

[IbleedBnG83]

when a new commish eventaully comes, it will be weird - thats for sure.

stern certainly has made some questionalbe decisions over the years, but no one can deny what he has done to keep the game's head above water in the post-jordan/high school exodus years.

simply put, the guy is the only commisioner that NBA basketball and its marketing AS THE WORLD KNOWS IT has ever seen.

You are right, but its time.

Paul Tagliabue revolutionized the NFL. But the NFL had changed a lot with salaries and player infractions etc. He new it was time for someone younger to come in and change things. That allowed Goodell to come in with a new plan to take it further. It would have been difficult for Tagliabue to changes things after years and years of a certain style.

Stern did a lot, but he has plateaud and regressed a bit IMO. He needs to turn it over to someone younger to take the NBA further. The NBA is skating on thin ice, but has the talent to continue to grow.

[BigMike619]

Iverson made it so the league went more street. we went from a classy era of Jordan/Bird/Magic to a chain wearing, on the bench looking like a video more then anything else.

I love it when you see KG on the sidelines decked out in a smooth suit. He looks like he is a professional.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

Players in the most boring professional sports league?

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

i would also argue, on a side note, that Allen Iverson has done as much to change the game's image and appeal as anyone other than Jordan.

his image and his style of play brought a HUGE new audience to the nba, and at the same time turned an entire audience off. good or bad - huge impact left by AI.

See, I think Iverson is ultimately going to be end up one of the forgotten superstars in league history - almost like Bernard King.

Those fans that loved him will tell stories about him, and everyone else will be like, "Oh yea...I forgot about him. He was something."

The problem with him is that he became the poster child for the late 90s isolation offenses. AI was amazing, but the games he played in were not terribly exciting because it was give him the ball at the top of the key and let him go 1 on 1 with someone.

Cleveland reverted to that offense against Orlando after a year of actually having a pretty good offensive flow.

[#98QBKiller]

players in the most boring professional sports league?

mlb?

[BigMike619]

Iverson's first triple double was handed to him by the other team when they stopped guarding so he could get it.

[Chachie]

As great as Jordan was, i think that often times his greatness tarnishes the legacy of those he played with. That 93-94 team without jordan still won 55 games and made a took the knicks to game 7 in the playoffs. Even without Jordan they were still a pretty solid team.

They were still a pretty solid team because they had years of Jordan's example to follow and a coach who was able to continue some of the special qualities MJ brought to their world. They fell short of proving they could "do it all" without MJ.

[BigMike619]

They were still a pretty solid team because they had years of Jordan's example to follow and a coach who was able to continue some of the special qualities MJ brought to their world. They fell short of proving they could "do it all" without MJ.

plus the year he came back didnt they win it all right away?

[TGI Jef]

record of 72-10, cruised through the playoffs, and won the title

**** - they won 69 games the next year, which tied the previous record.

pretty incredible.

[Sticksboi05]

The tactics, practice regiments and nutrition in athletics is constantly progressing. Relatively speaking, I think you have to take that in to consideration. You give Magic Johnson a Vitamin Shoppe, Gold's Gym membership and Phil Jackson and I personally believe he would look like The Predator out there these days.

That's what I'm saying. I mean you are not going to seriously tell me that players haven't become generally more athletic than before in every major sport. My god we have defensive linemen who jump 40 inches and run 4.4 40's. There were no LeBron's in this league back then. Now granted, defenses have also become softer since then and you must take that into account for sure.

But I mean are you honestly telling me Alex Ovechkin isn't a better athlete than say Pavel Bure?

[Brad_Edwards_Fan]

plus the year he came back didnt they win it all right away?

Year he came back (played 17 games) they lost in the second round to orlando. The next year (his first full season back) was the 72-10 year.

[IbleedBnG83]

Year he came back (played 17 games) they lost in the second round to orlando. The next year (his first full season back) was the 72-10 year.

I remember it well. His first game back they played the Pacers and lost. Thats when they had Reggie Bush and the big white dude, I can't remember his name.

[THE OUTSIDER]

I remember it well. His first game back they played the Pacers and lost. Thats when they had Reggie Bush and the big white dude, I can't remember his name.

LOL. You mean Reggie Miller. The white guy I believe was Rik Smits.

[Brad_Edwards_Fan]

I remember it well. His first game back they played the Pacers and lost. Thats when they had Reggie Bush and the big white dude, I can't remember his name.

I think you mean Reggie Miller and Rik Smits

[Sticksboi05]

i dont think jordan revolutionized the game itself as much as he revolutionized the game's marketing and the game's appeal. he is probably the greatest of all time (valid arguments for Wilt, the Big O, etc.), but he did very little to "change" the game itself like, for example, Wilt did when he pretty much forced them to widen the lane.

id say that, if anything, lebron and dwight howard are revolutionizing the "basketball specimen." lebron is one of the greatest athletes ever to play in the NBA with his combo of size and speed, while dwight has got to be one of the most athletic centers ever, if not the most athletic.

there is also the new technology and player access that will likely allow Lebron to build and eventually top the marketing appeal that Jordan had, if he hasnt already. not in the same league as MJ until he wins some titles, but again - the technology in this era has allowed Lebron to become far more famous before becoming the far better player.

Wrong. Before MJ, the game was a big man's game. Even in the Magic/Bird era. Magic won all his with Kareem. Jordan completely put the focus on 2 guards and Scottie Pippen set the precedent for all the point forwards you see in the league now. That and he pretty much began the "raw athleticism" era of the NBA. Not saying players before were not athletic because that's nonsense but he used his athleticism in a way nobody before had. It was ludicrous before MJ to think a guard could dominate the league in the way that big men had the previous 40 years.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Players in the most boring professional sports league?

You mean this thread is about bowling?...

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I remember it well. His first game back they played the Pacers and lost. Thats when they had Reggie Bush and the big white dude, I can't remember his name.

If the Pacers were playing Reggie Bush, no wonder they lost lol...

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

That's what I'm saying. I mean you are not going to seriously tell me that players haven't become generally more athletic than before in every major sport. My god we have defensive linemen who jump 40 inches and run 4.4 40's. There were no LeBron's in this league back then. Now granted, defenses have also become softer since then and you must take that into account for sure.

But I mean are you honestly telling me Alex Ovechkin isn't a better athlete than say Pavel Bure?

If that's what you're saying why are you arguing?

The fact of the matter is today's dedicated athletes can be regimented on state of the art nutritional foundations and exercise plans from a very early age. Hence Lebron looking like a Bodybuilder when he was 20.

I watch Magic Johnson and Dr. J and I can only imagine the ownage that would be dished out if they were taking 20 grams of creatine and slamming multi-vitamin/protein shakes every morning.

Ovechkin, Lebron, Tomlinson, they're all the superior athletes of their respective sports. They are perhaps the most athletic in their sports' histories, which is what you're arguing. But I'm arguing that relative to their eras, there are other athletes who stood out like the sun in the clear sky to those around them.

Jordan, Jerry Rice, Magic Johnson, Wilt Chamberlin, Willie Mays, Bobby Orr.

If you compare baseball players of the 1910's to today's, it's literally like comparing the Majors to double or triple-A baseball. But we all know for what was considered to be "great" back then, Walter Johnson was a machine. He'd probably get a bullpen job these days.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

LeBron and Kobe are indeed roommates, living under the same roof built by Michael Jordan. Let's call it a mobile home -- one that's, of course, crazy mad plush -- because everywhere they go, the ceiling of their Jordan-constructed digs travels with them.

Everything they do on the basketball court is compared to Jordan. Obviously, that's a compliment to their great skills, but it's also a near-impossible standard that often clouds the judgment of their critics.

I mentioned to LeBron a few weeks ago that he's always being compared to Jordan. His response was a healthy one that I'm sure allows him to keep his sanity.

"Man, there'll never be another Michael Jordan," he said. "You'll drive yourself crazy trying to be the next Michael Jordan."

I'm not saying it's wrong to compare these guys to Jordan, mind you. In every field of endeavor, we compare today's best to the best ever, so this is quite natural.

My point is just that Jordan changed the standard by which NBA superstars are measured, and that can often diminish the achievements of the great ones who follow him.

For instance, with Jordan winning six titles without a dominant big man and with just one perennial All-Star teammate (Scottie Pippen) and with such nondescript guys as Stacey King, Bill Wennington, Will Perdue, Jud Buechler, Randy Brown, Steve Kerr, John Paxson, B.J. Armstrong, Scott Burrell, Luc Longley, Jason Caffey and Scott Williams playing key roles, a title is not just a title anymore.

It's no longer enough for a truly, truly great player to win just a title; he must win multiple titles. Then, even if he wins multiple titles, we analyze who he won them with and how good his teammates were.

That's why people seem to have forgotten that Kobe already has won three championships. We always belittle Kobe's three rings by saying, "But he had Shaq."

Yeah, and?

It's like Kobe has to win a championship without Shaq to validate himself.

He can thank Jordan for that.

And if the Cavs fail to defy history by rallying from their 3-1 deficit in the East finals versus Orlando, LeBron will take hits in some quarters for not being Jordanesque enough.

Never mind that he's scored more points in the first four games of a conference finals series than anyone else (including Jordan); LeBron is averaging 42 points, 7 rebounds and 7 assists on 50 percent shooting. Or that he hasn't had one teammate score 20 or more points in this series, a sad reality that hasn't happened in a conference final since MJ's Bulls lost to Detroit in 1989. Or that he has just one other starter hitting at least 44 percent of his shots. Or that the Cavs are the only team left standing that doesn't have at least two legitimate stars. Or that he doesn't have anything close to a Pippen or a frontline stopper like Dennis Rodman.

But such is life After Mike.

The legends we lift up and adore from the B.M. (Before Mike) days weren't held to nearly as high a standard.

First of all, before Mike, perimeter players weren't measured by their championships, because no matter how good you were, you needed a big man to win big.

Oscar Robertson, whose triple-double play we laud (and rightly so), won only one title, and that was as a 32-year-old, 11-year veteran playing with a young Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Yet Robertson, who averaged 19 points and 8 assists as a champion rather than the 30-12-11 we praise him for, is still viewed as possibly the best guard ever not named Jordan.

The Logo, Jerry West, played 10 seasons with a healthy Elgin Baylor and four with a healthy Wilt Chamberlain and won just one ring. He lost seven times in the NBA Finals before winning his lone championship (and eight times overall) yet he's nicknamed "Mr. Clutch."

I hesitate to write this next line because it feels sacrilegious, but it's true: If West were being held to the same standard as Kobe and LeBron, he'd be known as "Mr. Clutching His Throat."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/columns/story?columnist=broussard_chris&page=MJShadow-090528

[Burgold]

I think one thing that Lebron's defenders in this and are other threads are forgetting is how much a hated figure was Jordan was when he was playing. It comes with the territory.

Currently, Lebron though is not great. Just like Shaq wasn't great until he won his ring or Elway wasn't great until he got his. Marino and Ewing will never be great. Greatness requires you to be the best. Being the best requires a championship.

I know others will disagree with this, but they are wrong