JLC- Holmgren on Campbell: 'Have Some Patience

[thedevilhimself]

i have patience with JC...he will have this season, but that doesn't mean he should be back even if the plays like he did last season

i guess having to wait for a QB to develop going into his 5th season isn't being patient, how many teams actually wait 5 years on ONE QB to develop...i'm having a hard time to recall any team that has waited this long on one QB

I am sick of the 5 years in the NFL - Campbell was drafted in in 2005, this will be his 5th season he has been a releif starter in 2006, full starter in 2007 for 13 games and 2008 . This will be 2nd year in the same system, this will be interesting to watch to see if he actually has something or makes the same mistakes again ... As for teams showing patience, it often works out ... cannot think of any examples ... How about the Giants with one Eli Manning, What about the Bears and their fixation untill recently on Kyle Orton and Rex Grossman, what about Arron Rodgers, what about people waiting on Marc Bulger to regain form, why are the Jags stuck on Gerrard, the Panthers stay with Delhomme, how long do the Titans stick with Vince Young ...

[Clutch03]

as of right now, JC is still the starting QB...this will be his 4th season playing and 3rd as a starter...he's going into his final year of his contract...he's in his 5th season and starting

now, my question is, how much more patience should the team have...how many other teams wait 5 years for a QB to develop...i think the team has showed patience with JC

I think you are confusing patience with time. You don't show patience with somebody by changing their circumstances so frequently. That is showing a recipe for failure. Your essentially pulling the rug from under him every year and expecting him to perform as if it was never pulled in the first place.

With that said I agree this is his final year to prove himself as the starting QB. But if you are asking if the FO has shown patience I would say no.

[knowledge316]

There are LOTS of examples of QBs who have taken 5 plus years to develop before all the lights went on or they had the right system and/or talent around them to be succesful.

Steve Young comes to mind. His first 4 years in the league he never broke a 53% completion percentage and had more INTs that TD passes. Two of those 4 years were with SF where he split time with Joe Montana due to injuries to Joe so its not all down to a bad Tampa team.

I guess you would have cut him ......just before in year 5 he jumped to a 69% completion percentage and the rest, as they say is history. Hall of Fame Super Bowl wining history

Just one example. OK how about Jim Plunkett. His first 5 years at New England he was horrible. Only broke 50% once while starting a ton of games. Then two very ordinary years at SF. No doubt you would have had him stacking shelves at this point if not earlier. In 79 he went to Oakland sat for a year, took over from Kenny Stabler in 1980 and won two Super Bowls - one aginst us in '83 :doh:

How about Terry Bradshaw? Only broke 50% completions once in his first 5 years at the Steelers and had a season high of 13 TDs in that period. He turned out OK?

Point is JC may or may not develop into a good NFL QB. At this point we - and this includes you I'm afraid - just don't know.

Fans and teams have forgotten - or never knew in the first place - that it can take years for a QB to develop and we just don't have the paitence to wait to find out. A couple of years - instant (often flawed) judgement - Next!

WOW. Just WOW. Going back to the 1970s and 1980s to find examples. My point is that the team has showed patience with JC. Again, how many teams actually waited for a QB to develop going into their 5th season.

This era of the NFL, teams generally don't wait more than 3 seasons for a QB to develop.

[Art]

I disagree on the point of bringing in another QB will put us in reverse. I don't think Campbell is the man for the job even though I want him to be. He just hasn't shown me enough to be comfortable with him through the season. However, I don't want to change systems, coaches, and all that jazz yet again either. The only concern is, what if JZ isn't the man for the job? Then we are getting/keeping players for the WRONG system. On top of that, my sidenote if you will, I don't trust Vinny to get the 'right' players for ANY system. Period!

This is simply so dimwitted and out of touch as to be embarrassing. Vinny has had a key role in providing players to fit various systems over the years in a way that has been more successful than lacking. While Archuleta and Lloyd wrankle, players like Washington, Portis, Moss, Thomas, Rabach, Griffin, Fletcher, Springs, etc., etc., are those who have fit well with what various coaching staffs have asked for.

Vinny has had to adjust over the years to find players first to fit Norv, then to fit Spurrier, then to fit Gibbs and now to fit Zorn. He's adjusted the grading system and done a generally solid job of acquiring players to fit those systems. The players, especially defensively, have performed at a very high level for years. Our offensive players have always trailed, though some have individually played well.

[knowledge316]

I think you are confusing patience with time. You don't show patience with somebody by changing their circumstances so frequently. That is showing a recipe for failure. Your essentially pulling the rug from under him every year and expecting him to perform as if it was never pulled in the first place.

With that said I agree this is his final year to prove himself as the starting QB. But if you are asking if the FO has shown patience I would say no.

I see what you are saying and I kind of agree. But you can't blame the FO on this thing, and believe me, I am no fan of Danny or Vinny.

He was drafted by Gibbs and Gibbs is the one that brought it Saunders. Now, in 2006 and 2007 Saunders was the OC. JC played in 2006 and was the starter in 2007. Now, it was Gibbs that retired, so what was the FO to do in that situation? They had to hire a coach.

[Mad Mike]

I have all the respect in the wold for Holmgren but this... "The thing is you have to have some patience. He's a young guy. And he may come in soon and shock everybody. Look at the young quarterback in Baltimore [Joe] Flacco, he's not being asked to do the same things as Campbell. He's not throwing the ball as much as Jason. If you're in the West Coast offense, you're going to be asked to do a lot more." ...is not an in depth analysis. It's a guess. And the reality is that Gibbs, Saunders and Zorn, have all held back on what they asked of Campbell and were labeled "too conservative" by fans. I wonder how Holmgren would feel if Jason was his QB and he was still trying to fix the most basic elements of Campbell's game after 5 years as a pro.

If Jason comes in this year and really shows something, great. But no way does he get a new contract for mediocre play that demands more patience.

I want the QB position fixed. If Jason can do that, great. He's a classsy guy and I would be thrilled to support him. But if he cant do it this year, someone else is going to have to show patience with him. That's fine too. It may be that Campbell will one day "get it" and become a much better QB but you cant bet your franchise and pay franchise QB money on "maybe".

[Clutch03]

WOW. Just WOW. Going back to the 1970s and 1980s to find examples. My point is that the team has showed patience with JC. Again, how many teams actually waited for a QB to develop going into their 5th season.

This era of the NFL, teams generally don't wait more than 3 seasons for a QB to develop.

Drew Brees comes to mind. His first couple of seasons makes him look like a bust. Now he is top 5 QB in the league easy

Season Team Passing Rushing Fumbles

G GS Comp Att Pct Yds Avg TD Int Sck SckY Rate Att Yds Avg TD FUM Lost

2003 San Diego Chargers 11 11 205 356 57.6 2,108 5.9 11 15 21 178 67.5 21 84 4.0 0 5 3

2002 San Diego Chargers 16 16 320 526 60.8 3,284 6.2 17 16 24 180 76.9 38 130 3.4 1 2 0

2001 San Diego Chargers 1 0 15 27 55.6 221 8.2 1 0 2 12 94.8 2 18 9.0 0 2 0

[MartinC]

WOW. Just WOW. Going back to the 1970s and 1980s to find examples. My point is that the team has showed patience with JC. Again, how many teams actually waited for a QB to develop going into their 5th season.

This era of the NFL, teams generally don't wait more than 3 seasons for a QB to develop.

I was pointing out examples who won Super Bowls - multiple in some cases. Others have already pointed to examples from "this era". Eli would be the best example in our own division - he only broke an 80 passer rating for a season in his 5th year.

The ball is the same shape, the field the same size - the game has not changed THAT much. What has changed is the salary cap which makes teams - and fans - impaitent for results NOW and the need to play young QBs rather than giving them time to develop. That results in hasty decisions and unless you get lucky a cycle of chasing after the answer when you have possibly discarded said answer several times and just dont know it.

[#98QBKiller]

WOW. Just WOW. Going back to the 1970s and 1980s to find examples. My point is that the team has showed patience with JC. Again, how many teams actually waited for a QB to develop going into their 5th season.

This era of the NFL, teams generally don't wait more than 3 seasons for a QB to develop.

Well you can rest assured that this is the last season that we'll be waiting on him.

Either the light will come on this season or he won't get a new contract and we'll be drafting a QB and/or looking to see what we have in Colt.

I'm just wondering what the FO/Zorn are expecting to re-sign him? I think if he takes us to the playoffs and wins a few games for us then he'll get a contract. But if he puts up another mediocre season I don't think you'll see him in the B&G anymore.

[knowledge316]

I am sick of the 5 years in the NFL - Campbell was drafted in in 2005, this will be his 5th season he has been a releif starter in 2006, full starter in 2007 for 13 games and 2008 . This will be 2nd year in the same system, this will be interesting to watch to see if he actually has something or makes the same mistakes again ... As for teams showing patience, it often works out ... cannot think of any examples ... How about the Giants with one Eli Manning, What about the Bears and their fixation untill recently on Kyle Orton and Rex Grossman, what about Arron Rodgers, what about people waiting on Marc Bulger to regain form, why are the Jags stuck on Gerrard, the Panthers stay with Delhomme, how long do the Titans stick with Vince Young ...

Eli was actually taking his team to the playoffs pretty much every year. When a QB does that, you don't get rid off him. Rodgers was backing up Favre, and this was his 1st year starting. Garrard replaced Leftwich. It's not like Jags felt Garrard was their QB until Leftwich started sucking. Dellhomme also took the team to the superbowl. Delhomme actually played well his first 4 years with Panthers. So what's your point about Delhomme? As for Orton/Grossman situation, maybe that's one real case. Bulger, he's been hurt the past couple years, but prior to that, his numbers are really good. Vince Young, well the Titans benched him last season and Collins is still the starter, so I don't think they waited 5 years on him.

[ttr77]

Vinny has had to adjust over the years to find players first to fit Norv, then to fit Spurrier, then to fit Gibbs and now to fit Zorn.

I'm sure Vinny had some say in the hiring of these coaches. And this exemplifies the lack of a true vision at Redskins Park:

Norv - Offensive minded

Schott - Ball control

Spurrier - Chuck and duck

Gibbs - Ball control

Zorn - WCO hybrid

So, instead of building on what the previous coach started, they have decided to start ALL over with a new system each time, which required a new style of player to match it.

There are tons of examples of new coaches coming in with new systems, new players, and new QBs and being IMMEDIATELY successful EVERY SINGLE SEASON.

Yet, here in Redskinland...'Patience' is the key word.

[Stophovr6]

Jason may not be the answer. But patience and sticking with a system for more than a year is.

[Santana_Fan]

He was drafted by Gibbs and Gibbs is the one that brought it Saunders. Now, in 2006 and 2007 Saunders was the OC. JC played in 2006 and was the starter in 2007. Now, it was Gibbs that retired, so what was the FO to do in that situation? They had to hire a coach.

That part is definitely true. The only thing is, the FO still seemed as if they didn't show any patience with Campbell. You're right, they had to hire a coach, but they need to also notice that Campbell had to start over again. Yet, they figured it'd be easier to go after every QB they saw.

[MartinC]

Well you can rest assured that this is the last season that we'll be waiting on him.

Either the light will come on this season or he won't get a new contract and we'll be drafting a QB and/or looking to see what we have in Colt.

I'm just wondering what the FO/Zorn are expecting to re-sign him? I think if he takes us to the playoffs and wins a few games for us then he'll get a contract. But if he puts up another mediocre season I don't think you'll see him in the B&G anymore.

Agreed its put up or shut up time for Jason this year right or wrong.

[ttr77]

What has changed is the salary cap which makes teams - and fans - impaitent for results NOW and the need to play young QBs rather than giving them time to develop. That results in hasty decisions and unless you get lucky a cycle of chasing after the answer when you have possibly discarded said answer several times and just dont know it.

The salary cap has made it a REQUIREMENT to see signs of success in the first 5-6 years since that's the length of most rookie deals. I don't think this can be blamed on the fans.

[knowledge316]

Drew Brees comes to mind. His first couple of seasons makes him look like a bust. Now he is top 5 QB in the league easy

Season Team Passing Rushing Fumbles

G GS Comp Att Pct Yds Avg TD Int Sck SckY Rate Att Yds Avg TD FUM Lost

2003 San Diego Chargers 11 11 205 356 57.6 2,108 5.9 11 15 21 178 67.5 21 84 4.0 0 5 3

2002 San Diego Chargers 16 16 320 526 60.8 3,284 6.2 17 16 24 180 76.9 38 130 3.4 1 2 0

2001 San Diego Chargers 1 0 15 27 55.6 221 8.2 1 0 2 12 94.8 2 18 9.0 0 2 0

Drew Brees is not a good example of what I am talking about. I said how many teams actually wait 5 years to develop a QB. Since the Chargers drafted Rivers after Brees 3rd season pretty much says they were replacing him. SD had different plans after his 3rd season.

[MartinC]

The salary cap has made it a REQUIREMENT to see signs of success in the first 5-6 years since that's the length of most rookie deals. I don't think this can be blamed on the fans.

Agreed but fans - especially younger fans who have only really known the salary cap era - have become conditioned to 2 or 3 years maximum before its time for the next free agent or 1st round draft pick.

The salary cap does make it difficult to take time to develop players - at least high draft picks - because of the cost and amount of cap space they take up. That does not change the fact that QBs in particular can take a number of years to find the right situation/system/comfort factor before they start to consistently perform at a high level. Some of course never do develop.

[fnkdctr(007)]

JC is the man. Give him time and we are all good.

[TheLongshot]

I'm sure Vinny had some say in the hiring of these coaches. And this exemplifies the lack of a true vision at Redskins Park:

Norv - Offensive minded

Schott - Ball control

Spurrier - Chuck and duck

Gibbs - Ball control

Zorn - WCO hybrid

So, instead of building on what the previous coach started, they have decided to start ALL over with a new system each time, which required a new style of player to match it.

There are tons of examples of new coaches coming in with new systems, new players, and new QBs and being IMMEDIATELY successful EVERY SINGLE SEASON.

Yet, here in Redskinland...'Patience' is the key word.

Actually, I think this shows that Vinny has had very little say as to who the head coach is. Zorn is probably the first head coach where Vinny was involved in the interview process. Just about every guy it as pretty much been Snyder and only Snyder who did the interviews, often with a very limited list of candidates which he was looking at. Even then, it didn't take much to hire them. All it took was Spurrier and Gibbs to be available for Snyder to hire them.

[bubba9497]

What a kool-aid drinking, excuse making, JC apologizing, homer :thumbsup:

I swear the response by some in this thread ......... :rotflmao:

[Clutch03]

Drew Brees is not a good example of what I am talking about. I said how many teams actually wait 5 years to develop a QB. Since the Chargers drafted Rivers after Brees 3rd season pretty much says they were replacing him. SD had different plans after his 3rd season.

Understood but we can at least agree that three years does not tell you everything you need to know about QB. Campbell didn't play his first season so that doesn't count. He played the last couple of games of his second season and he was hurt 3/4 of the way through the third. So I don't think you can measure Campbell against a 5 year rule.

[ttr77]

Actually, I think this shows that Vinny has had very little say as to who the head coach is. Zorn is probably the first head coach where Vinny was involved in the interview process. Just about every guy it as pretty much been Snyder and only Snyder who did the interviews, often with a very limited list of candidates which he was looking at. Even then, it didn't take much to hire them. All it took was Spurrier and Gibbs to be available for Snyder to hire them.

Knowing that the person in charge of finding personnel for the team is not involved in the coach hiring process does not make me feel any better about the circumstances here.

Sure...he was involved in the Zorn hire, and perhaps this is a step towards fixing this disconnect, but it still necessitated a new player acquisition strategy. And more pleads for 'patience' from the fanbase.

If Zorn fails this year, expect a defensive-minded coach next season. And Vinny can drone on about the need for a new style of player to fit this coach, when it is the very circumstance that he was involved in creating.

[Passizle]

Meanwhile, we'll keep "patiencing" ourselves to 8-8 records. Sorry, I want my team to be better than that.

I thought the article was more about Zorn than Campbell. Holmgren's obviously biased toward Zorn and is trying to throw his support toward Zorn by saying to be patient. In other words, be patient while Zorn fixes JC.

And I can't let this go....it's not that we are bashing Campbell, it's more that we want our team to win. To many of us, winning won't happen with JC no matter the excuses or how much patience we have.

Hail,

H

I was waiting ofr a specualtivepost such as this to pop up. When we hired Zorn, many a fan said Zorn would not be good because if he was, then Holgren would have endorsed him as an OC or HC. Now... on year later after NOT getting Holmgrens endorsment... he is "sticking up for his boy".

And bashers continue to speculate...:doh:

Please review weeks one through eight and honestly tell me... or anyone that winning is impossible with JC under center.

[Bang]

What does Holmgren really know about quarterbacks if he doesn't think that Jason is a loser?

:hysterical:

That one got me pretty good.

~Bang

[TheLongshot]

Knowing that the person in charge of finding personnel for the team is not involved in the coach hiring process does not make me feel any better about the circumstances here.

I don't think the Redskins are unique in that reguard. There are a few teams that have a team president and a director of player personnel. In that case, the team president would be the boss of the player personnel guy and would have to accept whoever the team president hires as the head coach.

That structure by itself isn't bad. It is when there isn't much coordination between that and the roster is when it does get bad, and I agree with you that it has been far from ideal. The good thing is that the FO seems to have learned and haven't made changes that would also require massive personell changes like in the past.