SHANAHAN FIRED: Redskins should FIRE Zorn and HIRE Shanahan (merged)

[88Comrade2000]

Shanahan is overrated. He hasn't done **** since he won back to back superbowls 10 years ago.

[modazfuk]

Snyder is rich, very rich, so he's gotta be thinking "Gee, maybe I should dump the Pinto I got for a Mercedes"

[dachozenone]

Post-Elway, Shanahan's busts outnumbered booms

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=forde_pat&id=3801219&sportCat=nfl

Mike Shanahan is easily the best coach in Denver Broncos history. But that doesn't mean he should be coach for life.

It was time for a new coach in Denver. Give credit to owner Pat Bowlen for making that difficult decision and firing the man most Broncos fans never thought he'd fire -- the man who helped deliver the only two Super Bowl victories in franchise history. Turns out everyone overestimated Shanahan's job security -- including, perhaps, Shanahan himself. After 14 years, his comfort level and strategic intransigence could be some of the reasons the Broncos have become the embodiment of mediocrity with their 24-24 record the past three seasons.

As a lifelong Bronco fan who watches every game and remembers the days before Denver even had a winning season, much less a world title, I'm sorry to see it end like this. Sorry and a bit stunned. But by no means would I say Bowlen's decision is unjustified. He fired Wade Phillips once, and Dan Reeves, too. Now Shanahan joins an Orange Crush pink-slip list he surely never dreamed he'd be on -- but deserves to be on. You end a third straight blah season outside the playoffs, being outscored by 78 points -- and flatly lucky to be even 8-8. You gag away your good fortune and give up a division title with three straight losses. You lose at home to a team that has given up on the season (Buffalo), then get undressed in a do-or-die game against your biggest rival (San Diego) with a divisional title on the line.

Guess what? Those are fireable offenses. Even for a guy with Shanny's finger bling. Truth is, the Shanahan Method was fraying and the franchise decaying at a time when it should be booming in its relatively new stadium. Backed by arguably the best owner and most loyal fan base in the NFL, the coach couldn't sustain the glory of the 1990s into the new millennium. Since John Elway rode off into the Rocky Mountain sunset after a second consecutive Super Bowl title in early 1999, Denver has been utterly ordinary. It has won a single playoff game in the decade without No. 7 at quarterback.

The post-Elway Broncos have been a blur of fired defensive coordinators, failed free-agent acquisitions, boom-or-bust drafts, spotty special teams, late-season swoons and -- on those occasions when they did make the playoffs -- postseason pratfalls.

Shanahan has continually churned the roster without changing the bottom line. The magic is long gone, and it will be up to someone else to recapture it. Post-Elway, Shanahan seemed to believe he could plug any quarterback into his creative, aggressive offense and it would work at a championship level. He hand-picked Brian Griese for the role, and it didn't work. He hand-picked Jake Plummer for the role, and it didn't work. The current hand-picked quarterback is Jay Cutler -- and so far it hasn't worked.

Cutler is a prodigious talent who makes you want to kiss him and strangle him in alternating doses. He might turn out to be a great one, but until he curbs his proclivity for crippling turnovers, he's just a tease -- he threw five interceptions this season inside opponents' 10-yard line. Shanahan seemed seduced by Cutler's arm and bravado to the point that he indulged the very interceptions and fumbles that did as much to scuttle this season as Denver's plague of injuries.

But the biggest problem with the 2008 Broncos was a horrendous defense that was largely of Shanahan's making. (The entire roster is of Shanahan's making, in fact, given the amount of control Bowlen entrusted him with.) He has changed coordinators and parts like socks with steadily decreasing results. The coach's annual efforts to revamp his defensive line on the fly bottomed out in '08. Denver was terrible up front, both against the run and in rushing the passer. This is what happens when you troll the free-agent market for linemen who underachieved elsewhere or, in alternating years, you draft non-impact linemen.

The free-agent failures of recent years are too numerous to list -- though Dewayne Robertson deserves special commendation for lack of impact this year, a development that could not have shocked his previous employer, the New York Jets. And the 2007 draft splurge on defensive linemen has been a bust -- three of Denver's first four picks in that draft were spent on Jarvis Moss, Tim Crowder and Marcus Thomas, none of whom will play in Hawaii in this lifetime. (To be fair, Shanahan and Denver's personnel people did hit home runs in the '08 draft with left tackle Ryan Clady, wide receiver Eddie Royal and running back Peyton Hillis.

But those are all offensive players.) Combine the problems up front with abominable safety play, and Denver's defense was a disaster up the middle. The franchise that once was home to rock-solid safeties such as Steve A****er, Dennis Smith and Billy Thompson saw its back-line players continually miss tackles, blow coverages and surrender big plays. So at a time in which AFC West rivals Kansas City and Oakland have faded from competitive view, Denver has failed to take advantage. What should be a two-team divisional race between the Broncos and the Chargers has instead become the San Diego Show, except when Ed Hochuli intervenes on Denver's behalf.

If he wants another job, Shanahan surely will get one. There's a good chance he would succeed in it -- getting fired might be the jolt he needs to modernize some of his philosophies and change some of his ways. And one day they justifiably will enshrine Shanahan in Denver's Ring of Honor, putting his name on the stadium facade alongside the players he coached to Super Bowl glory. But their days in uniform are done, and their coach was overdue to exit the Mile High sideline. Nobody's run lasts forever.

[hitmandm]

do it now!!!

[sperrytim]

Anyone could have guessed this but that would just delay us another year to even get settled. At the beginning of this season everyone had doubts on what we would do and when we started getting some wins our confidence sky rocketed. As soon as this happened we started losing our flame but this should have been no surprise since coaches could finally watch game tape on us and get an idea of our system.

The lure of having the coach who produced such great effects with Clinton Portis can't seem to pass by everyones eyes without some thought for sure, but it would just delay success.

[Loyal2Washington]

Loyal to washington,you should consider nothing more that his record. 24 and 24.

eight and eight this year. Need I say more? Zorn's first attempt at head coaching job,is an eight and eight season. Nuff said.

This is the most ridiculous argument I have ever heard. At age 61 you should be well more advanced then you are now in your knowledge of football. Are you a new fan to the game?

If I am to consider nothing more then his record doesn't that mean his entire record??? Which just between you and me is a tad bit better then 24-24, oh and just a smig better then Zorn's career mark of 8-8. I'm assuming those Super Bowls don't count either seeing how John Elway was racking up Lombardi's well before Shanahan got there. I guess he didn't have anything at all to do with those right? So I guess ceedogg that would be Nuff Said.

[Bacon]

Are we going to do this after every firing this off season?

Hey, you never know, Rod Marinelli could make a great cup of coffee.

[askounes]

shanahan is overrated. He hasn't done **** since he won back to back superbowls 10 years ago.

lol

[CPAllTheWay012]

If they could keep Zorn and hire Shanahan to some position in the Redskin's organization, I'm all for it.

[SteamRollingRiggo]

Shanahan is overrated. He hasn't done **** since he won back to back superbowls 10 years ago.

Neither did Gibbs. Facts are facts.....Shanahan is a great coach. His record speaks for itself. He's won 2 more superbowls than Marty (who everyone realizes was a mistake to get rid of) and 1 more than Bill Cowher. I've realized one thing...people on here like making excuses. Excuses for Jason Campbell, Excuses for Jim Zorn, Excuses why others shouldn't be hired to run this team. Jim Zorn, who is a self anointed genius, is too busy to realize that his offense is not suited for the type of personnel he has. He's trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. I'd have more respect for him had he gone 2-6 in the first half and then 6-2 to finish it off. We actually got worse and things don't look too peachy next year. This once proud franchise is a total disgrace. Its been run into the ground. To think that Zorn has a chance to turn us around is purely nuts. Not with the current FO structure. Ridiculous.

[JTC228]

I like Zorn and have thought we should give him a shot atleast for 3 or 4 seasons, but I think if we could get Shanahan we should go for it. We need to rebuild our line right now anyway, and Shanahan could get guys that he thinks would be good for his zone blocking scheme, we already know Portis can have success in that system. Also, Denver still owes him $20 million over the next 3 years so he might not cost too much. It will be interesting to see if Danny goes after him, it wouldn't suprise me, but I just don't think Shanahan will get the power here he would want. But I don't think we should get rid of Zorn for anyone else, not Cowher or Mangini....but if we don't get Shanahan I think the Cowgirls will.

[BAFGA]

Idiotic.

Unless you're joking. Then it's epic.

But seeing the intelligence level around here, you're probably serious.

And that's scary

I didn't have to dig far into this thread to find the best post ever posted. Thank you for not wasting many minutes of my life. You summed it up perfectly.

[CM916]

I hate you all passionately, just thought I'd put that out there. Now, I never go to other teams' message boards but maybe someone who does can answer a question for me. Do other fan bases want to sign every single coach and free agent that become available? When they have a rookie coach that they claim to like a lot, do they still want to kick him to the curb for washed up legends? Are they insane enough to beleive that rookie coach would accept a demotion to OC or that his big name replacement would even want him around?

I've come to accept the Cowher talk as a daily occurence until he finally signs somewhere else but Shanahan? Please stop. Before I snap and start a Mangini thread if it's not already here.

[Smoot Point Really]

This is a stupid idea... Denver has won fewer playoff games since Elway left than we have. He isn't a genius... He isn't worth it.

[Shadskins1980]

U people are worser than Danny Boy I tell you.

[Skinsinparadise]

I hate you all passionately, just thought I'd put that out there. Now, I never go to other teams' message boards but maybe someone who does can answer a question for me. Do other fan bases want to sign every single coach and free agent that become available? When they have a rookie coach that they claim to like a lot, do they still want to kick him to the curb for washed up legends? Are they insane enough to beleive that rookie coach would accept a demotion to OC or that his big name replacement would even want him around?

I've come to accept the Cowher talk as a daily occurence until he finally signs somewhere else but Shanahan? Please stop. Before I snap and start a Mangini thread if it's not already here.

IMO its a little strange when people are offended when people have a different opinions. Now I do go to other fan's message boards and heck yeah people are passionate pro and con a ton of things very similar to how we are here.

On this board clearly not everyone is in love with Zorn and it doesn't shock me that some of us would be cool discarding him for a coach that has won Superbowls, brought out the best numbers in Clinton Portis and runs a West Coast offense so Campbell wouldn't have to take a step back.

And yeah watching Zorn's brilliant/inventive offense week after week, its clear he's on the verge of something special here -- how can anyone think otherwise? And for those that don't see that at least you can see the progress game after game, they were getting better and better and more explosive. Watching Zorn's commanding presence on the sidelines, what fool wouldn't have complete confidence in this guy?

I guess some people are a bit nuts to assume Shannahan who actually has a reputation of running brilliant offenses and actually developed a rookie QB into something special and actually worked with a rookie WR this season (drafted after our guys), and developed immediately into a marquee WR. We have to be insane to think Shannahan would do better here than Zorn?

Look, I agree with your point that its unrealistic for this to happen and Zorn to accept a demotion, but why are you offended that people talk about it? Plenty of stuff on this board that I disagree with but so what? I am not a Zorn guy and am far from being one of the more negative guys on this board, heck I've defended Cerrato's draft this year for example -- not a popular position here. But heck if you said give Zorn a 10 year contract extension and he's the best coach on the planet, cool enough, we are all entitled to our opinions.

Edit:

I get the idea of keeping Zorn, give him another year, etc, etc. And based on the Redskins knee jerk reaction and seat by the pants history under Snyder, we probably have to suck it up and do just that. But for people to like this idea, doesn't seem that insane to me. This guy is arguably the perfect guy to make a transition with without taking a step back and worked with some of the finest QB's in the league, brought the best out of Portis, etc.

Personally, I think Zorn's coming back, we go 6-10 or something like that, and he's gone after that. Hopefully I am wrong. My problem with Zorn is simple I didn't see progress over the season if anything they regressed, i could be wrong.

2 seasons ago when the Skins struggled I saw progress at the end of the season especially in that Saints game and then the Giants game that gave me hope for the following one. This season, i didn't see the gotcha moment where it was yeah I see what Zorn is doing, cool, we are going to explode next season.

[Chump Bailey]

On this board clearly not everyone is in love with Zorn and it doesn't shock me that some of us would be cool discarding him for a coach that has won Superbowls, brought out the best numbers in Clinton Portis and runs a West Coast offense so Campbell wouldn't have to take a step back.

And yeah watching Zorn's brilliant/inventive offense week after week, its clear he's on the verge of something special here -- how can anyone think otherwise? And for those that don't see that at least you can see the progress game after game, they were getting better and better and more explosive. Watching Zorn's commanding presence on the sidelines, what fool wouldn't have complete confidence in this guy?

I guess some people are a bit nuts to assume Shannahan who actually has a reputation of running brilliant offenses and actually developed a rookie QB into something special and actually worked with a rookie WR this season (drafted after our guys), and developed immediately into a marquee WR. We have to be insane to think Shannahan would do better here than Zorn?

:applause::applause::applause::applause:

[Veretax]

If I were to wager money, though I'm not a gambler. I'd say he ends up with the Jets. Call me crazy lol

[jfr3ek]

noooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!! lets have some consistency here people!!! if we plug in a system, it needs at least 2 years to fully understand the offense. Please NO!

[Skinsinparadise]

Shanahan was fired for having an 8-8 record this year. From what I recall their team has the opposite problem that we do, good offense, bad defense.

The Skins highlight under the Dan regime was winning 10 games. Lets look at some of Shanahan's seasons: 13-3, 12-4, 14-2, 11-5, 13,3, went 10-6 twice. And won Superbowls. Isn't that what we are trying to accomplish here?

Beyond that we all read about how you can insert ANY running back into their line up and he's going to put up big numbers thanks to his innovative zone blocking schemes. We all read about how he helped developed some of the best QB's of all time.

Look for those that are opposed to the idea, I get that. I don't get those that say people that want Shanahan over Zorn have to be crazy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Shanahan

In 1992, Shanahan was hired as offensive coordinator for the San Francisco 49ers on George Seifert's staff, capping his rise with a Super Bowl victory after the 1994 season. The 49ers offense that year has been hailed as one of the greatest of all time, with the likes of Steve Young, Jerry Rice, Brent Jones, John Taylor, William Floyd and Ricky Watters scoring points in flurries. His years under Seifert placed him in the Bill Walsh coaching tree.

Denver Broncos

Shanahan's success with the 49ers earned him a head coaching spot once more, this time back in Denver with the Broncos beginning in 1995. Shanahan led Elway and the Broncos to back-to-back Super Bowl championships in the 1997 and 1998 seasons, during which time the Broncos set a then-record for victories in two seasons. He was the last coach to win two consecutive titles until New England's Bill Belichick did it during the 2003 and 2004 NFL seasons. Between 1996-1998, the Broncos set the NFL record for victories by going 46–10 over a three-year span. The 1998 Broncos won their first 13 games on their way to a 14–2 mark. Shanahan, taking his cue from West Coast offense guru Bill Walsh, was well-known for scripting the first 15 offensive plays of the game, and helped the '98 Broncos set an NFL record for first quarter points scored in a season.

Shanahan is known for a run-heavy variation of the West Coast offense he coached in San Francisco. He has often found unheralded running backs from later rounds of the annual NFL Draft and then turned them into league-leading rushers behind small-but-powerful offensive lines. Examples of this phenomenon are Terrell Davis, Mike Anderson, Olandis Gary, Reuben Droughns and Tatum Bell, all of whom have had at least one 1,000-yard season in a Denver uniform over the past 10 years.

[Ernie5]

After all the power he had in Denver, he's not coming unless he's head coach and GM

If you dislike Cerrato as GM, wait 'til you get Shanny. Woof! His high draft picks and free agent signings on defense have been almost universally disasterous. And it's questionable whether or not he ever learns from his mistakes. Love him as a coach, not as a GM.

[MEANDWARF]

Davis and Elway made Shanahan. After they left he did nothing. No thanks.

['Skins_&_'Stons]

QFMFT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This post perfectly describes exactly what is wrong with most of Redskins Nation. It never ceases to amaze me just how many of these unintelligent assclowns are on ES. These people desperately want to return to glory (just like the rest of us), but are not willing to wait more than five seconds before blowing everything up & going for that "shiny new object".

The OP = Steve Spurrier, Jeremiah Trotter, Bruce Smith, Deion, Jessie Armstead, Archuleta, B. lloyd etc.

GIVE ZORN A CHANCE!!!!!!!

:helmet:

-S&S

THIS JUST IN: SOMEONE FIRED

The AP has reported that some sort of sports coach from some football team has been released. Redskins fans on ExtremeSkins.com are already clamoring for whoever it is to be the next coach of some sort for the Redskins. "I'm really excited for whoever it was to be our next coach" said ES poster Frediemac. "It is time to move on from the Zorn era and usher in the great era of Whoever Was Just Let Go. I can't wait to find out who it is". More as the story develops.

[justice98]

Davis and Elway made Shanahan. After they left he did nothing. No thanks.

Not so fast, Shanahan's failing was as a personnel guy. But the man can run an offense. The guy got top 10 offenses out of QBs such as Brian Griese and Jake Plummer, and RBs such as Rueben Droughns, Mike Anderson, and Tatum Bell. The man can coach some offense, obviously, he's even better with superior talent, as anyone would be. I think we'd both agree, it's a steep drop from Elway to Griese and Plummer, correct? Not as if those two were any good anywhere else. Same for the RBs.

[Skinsinparadise]

Davis and Elway made Shanahan. After they left he did nothing. No thanks.

I'll grant he was better with Elway but did nothing?

10 years post Elway:

only twice did he have a losing record

We'd sell anything here for 10 wins, he did 10 or better 4 of those years: including an 11-5 and 13-3 season. Made the playoffs 4 years, too.

The key thing about him IMO is he is proven to be able to run a good offense, running game AND passing game. Jay Cutler isn't half bad, their passing game isn't half bad. You put a Blache defense with a Shanahan offense, the Skins IMO would improve.

I could be wrong and hopefully I am but I just don't have much faith in Zorn as a play caller. If he gave that up I'd be more on board with the keep the faith drill. Be one thing if Zorn alluded to the fact that maybe he needs to be more aggressive/inventive, etc. But he thinks more or less that all is fine.

Be one thing if I only questioned Zorn as a play caller but others do too, including ex-players like Brian Mitchell. Mitchell more or less said for example the difference why the 49ers beat the Skins is simple, Martz is a superior play caller. And then went on again about how Zorn isn't good at making adjustments in the games, etc. Another ex-player Doc Walker puts the blame on Zorn that the rookie players aren't up to speed, etc. I don't think we are coming out of left field to question Zorn.

And again be one thing if we were seeing progress but arguably you don't see it and if anything things got worse as the season went on. Maybe Zorn turns it around but his arrogance, the scheme is great, its the players fault drill that worries me.

Portis isn't the only one to mock Zorn's arrogance. If you recall Kendall rolled his eyes with a reporter and said yeah its always the players not the scheme.