Sojourners: Jim Wallis: James Dobson’s ‘Letter From 2012 in Obama’s America’

[Seabee1973]

If you happened to watch the debates (which for some reason I assume you didn't ) then you would see that he addressed these issues

http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2008/10/16/video-obama-and-mccain-debate-abortion

Is that why he voted 4 times as an Illinois Senater to pass Partial birth abortion? Which speaks louder action or words?

[Dan T.]

I'm not sure what you're getting at, but it doesn't really matter because I am much, much smarter than you.

First, what I'm getting at wasn't directed at you specifically. I'm sorry if that's what you thought. What I'm getting at is this. I have no problem with any person of conscience interpreting their religious beliefs to guide them on how to vote in an election. Nor do I have a problem with that person making an argument for that candidate over others based on that. The problem I have is when people interpret their religious beliefs, conclude that voting for X candidate = an immoral act, and then arrogantly inform others that they are committing an immoral act if they vote for X candidate. There are too many factors related to the candidates and to the issues those candidates must face for any person to arrogantly state that they've boiled all those factors down to a choice of virtue vs. immorality when pulling the lever in the voting booth. To me that is both ignorant and arrogant.

[Morneblade]

You think it's close? I think it's a freaking landslide. Atheism in and of itself is horrendously unattractive - no life after death? No grand plan? No divine providence? Just totally random chance and a dirt nap at the end? Why would anyone honestly want to believe that?

It's only through the flaws in religion that people are driven to atheism.

Err....

Personally, it makes more sence. Might not be the prettiest picture, but the other senario in all honesty sounds like a bunch of BS just to make us feel better about things. But that is just a personal opinion. :2cents:

[Jumbo]

81artmonk----Now I know how JUMBO feels about me... :doh:

And yet, have I not said "I instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye." :halo:

[AsburySkinsFan]

The DMC platform in no way agrees with Christianity.

Oh, yeah, because Christianity says nothing about helping the poor. See where you just failed prophet is that you made an absolute statement about Christianity and the Democratic party which means that any example of error in your statement proves your statement false, and then what I did was provide an example of error in your statement.

BTW:

Romans 10:9 9 because if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Where does it say in that verse that you can't vote for a Democrat? Sorry mate but stop making up what reasons that people are an are not Christians, all that is required to be a Christian is faith in the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ.

[AsburySkinsFan]

It's make me smile to know that there are other people on here who are crazier than I.

Yep, that's about par for the course with you so far, make a statement only to have the reality of your statement exposed for its inconsistency and then dodge the issue all together with an ad hominem attack.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Now I know how JUMBO feels about me. That verse isn't talking about gays:doh:

In the church not the civil government, or do you fail to see the difference between the two?

Of course it isn't blind adherance to any law the govt passes. But within the framework of what God allows, we are to obey them. Cap Pun falls into that catagory.

So capital punishment for homosexuals would be an ok law if signed by the President, what about for adulteresses, and back talking kids?

[techboy]

First, what I'm getting at wasn't directed at you specifically. I'm sorry if that's what you thought.

I refuse to believe that I actually needed to use a smiley in that sentence, regardless of the fact that you apparently missed the joke.

[Seabee1973]

Oh, yeah, because Christianity says nothing about helping the poor. See where you just failed prophet is that you made an absolute statement about Christianity and the Democratic party which means that any example of error in your statement proves your statement false, and then what I did was provide an example of error in your statement.

BTW:

Romans 10:9 9 because if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Where does it say in that verse that you can't vote for a Democrat? Sorry mate but stop making up what reasons that people are an are not Christians, all that is required to be a Christian is faith in the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ.

It doesnt but I am a firm believer in Voting as Christ would

[Seabee1973]

Yep, for adulteresses, back talking children, witches, beastialists, and gays. Looks like we're gonna have full prisons. Consistency is what we're asking for mate.

Actually you are wrong

[HOF44]

It doesnt but I am a firm believer in Voting as Christ would

Now there's a thread. How would Christ vote?

Good luck figuring that one out.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Actually you are wrong

Oh really.....The Mosaic Law would disagree with you.

Leviticus 20:10 If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death.

Leviticus 20:15 If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he shall be put to death; and you shall kill the animal.

Leviticus 20:27 A man or a woman who is a medium or a wizard shall be put to death; they shall be stoned to death, their blood is upon them.

Leviticus 24:16 One who blasphemes the name of the LORD shall be put to death; the whole congregation shall stone the blasphemer. Aliens as well as citizens, when they blaspheme the Name, shall be put to death.

Leviticus 24:17 Anyone who kills a human being shall be put to death.

Deuteronomy 13:5 But those prophets or those who divine by dreams shall be put to death for having spoken treason against the LORD your God-

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father and mother, who does not heed them when they discipline him, 19 then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his town at the gate of that place. 20 They shall say to the elders of his town, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of the town shall stone him to death. So you shall purge the evil from your midst; and all Israel will hear, and be afraid.

Deuteronomy 22:20-21 If, however, this charge is true, that evidence of the young woman's virginity was not found, 21 then they shall bring the young woman out to the entrance of her father's house and the men of her town shall stone her to death, because she committed a disgraceful act in Israel by prostituting herself in her father's house.

[AsburySkinsFan]

It doesnt but I am a firm believer in Voting as Christ would

Actually you are a firm believer in voting how you believe Christ would vote.

[BigMike619]

asbury, arent you the one who told me we dont live by the code of the old testament any more?

I agree with ya and usually do in religious threads but I thought Id razz ya a little bit.

[AsburySkinsFan]

asbury, arent you the one who told me we dont live by the code of the old testament any more?

I agree with ya and usually do in religious threads but I thought Id razz ya a little bit.

Nope, not me at least not in the way that its being understood here. The Mosaic Law of the Old Testament did not go away, nor was it deemed irrelevant, instead Jesus gave us a Law that was much harder than the Mosaic Law; no longer "don't murder" but "don't hate", no longer "no adultery" but "don't lust" etc. Jesus did not abolish the Law and the prophets instead he pushed deeper into the Law to expose the two greatest commandments.

Matthew 22:37-40 He said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

To paraphrase Paul: If I follow all the Law and the Prophets and have not love then I am but a clashing cymbal.

[techboy]

asbury, arent you the one who told me we dont live by the code of the old testament any more?

No, that was me, and it's not quite that simple. Anyway, have you read the New Testament yet?

[Johnny Punani]

No what you mean to say is "I read and understand the bible and to people that understand it like I do the choice should be easy."

OR...

you selectively read and distort the Bible and adapt it to your own ideology.

[Seabee1973]

Actually you are a firm believer in voting how you believe Christ would vote.

No im a firm believer in voting as Christ would

[IHOPSkins]

Anyone mind telling me why the bible doesn't specifically mention abortion if abortion was meant to be THE issue of Christians for so long? Did God forget to bring it up?.....

Exodus 21 22-25

If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurelyc but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

The Unborn is valued = The Born

[Jumbo]

No im a firm believer in voting as Christ would

Dammit! Another "redistribute the wealth" fan. :doh:

[skinfan133]

Very interesting document by Dr. Dobson. I could see a vast majority of it being PLAUSIBLE, if not almost certain to happen under the Obama Administration.

document.

I laughed. mostly inside, but a little out loud.

[Johnny Punani]

Dammit! Another "redistribute the wealth" fan. :doh:

I think Christ was for a more "personal" way to redistribute the wealth. That's because there is a benefit to the distributor as well as the distributee. You can't get that when someone else does the redistributing!!

[skinfan133]

Which has been the critique that many of us have offered up in recent years. One of the biggest problems that I have with the Religious Right is that in listening to them you begin to think that Christianity is about being against stuff instead of being for things like love, compassion, mercy, grace, and peace.

Amen my brother. While I've found we disagree alot on politics, we tend to line up on faith issues quite a bit. and thats how it should be

[skinfan133]

I read and understand the bible and to people that do the choice should be easy.

it's dangerous to line the bible up with politics my friend. remember, you have a statistical possibility of being wrong, think God would be happy with you claiming the bible supports your politics if they were wrong? The bible is a tool for social and spiritual action. it mentions very little about politics. one could even argue that Jesus prefered politics to remain in the relam of politicians and for the church to not care one way or the other ("Give to Ceasar what is Ceasar's").

:2cents:

[skinfan133]

I find it rather funny how tolernace is expected from the left, yet not practiced.

The simple truth is you can't be for what Obama is for and still proclaim to be a christian. for abortion,for gay rights. It just isn't possible.

it has nothing to do with slander, it has to do with standing up for whats right and sayin enough.

ok, I'm a Christian. Are you saying my faith in Christ isn't genuine, that i don't have a personal relationship with the Almighty because I simply think it's not my job or right to force people to act a certain way??? Gay people can do whatever they want to. doesn't make it right, but as long as they do not infringe upon other people's God given rights, they can do as they choose. God gave each of us free will, and as such people will sin. It's not up to you or me to make people not sin. they must choose to do that themselves.

I'm pro-life, but it is possible to be a Christian and be pro-choice. believe it or not, people legitamatly believe it isn't murder, and again, who are you or I to make people think a certain way?

If I may, in reference to your point on tolerance. Do not point out the speck of dust in your neighbors eye until you deal with the plank in your own. I think you need to take a minute and think about what exactly being tolerant means. sometimes it means having to accept that people will sin, whether you like it or not, and its not your responsibility to stop them from doing it. that is between them and God. Our job is to tell people the Good News.