Sojourners: Jim Wallis: James Dobson’s ‘Letter From 2012 in Obama’s America’

[#98QBKiller]

dude, I never said it was right or wrong and i didnt cherry pick ****. i was just showing where the bible does say that. and never once have i said i am not a sinner myself.

2 minutes too late LKB. nice try though.

I do love when non believers and athiests try to come in and use something they obviously dont believe in against those who do believe.

how can you quote and throw something in my face if you are a non believer?

I didn't say you cherry picked **** nor did I call you a sinner, but the bible quote that you threw out there is one of the most popular verses that Xtians like to use when talking about gays/gay rights in a political tone.

My point is, if a person is going to throw a bible verse out there and interpret it so strictly, then why not interpret all of them that strictly?

And as far as non-believers using bible verses....why not? It's using your own evidence against you. (not you personally, but Xtians in general).

[shk75]

I have a funny question that has never been asnwered for me. If Christ was born on Dec. 25th then why do we celebrate the new year on Jan 1st...shouldnt his birthday and the new year be the same day since that is what the current calendar we use is based on... Before Christ, After Christ.

[techboy]

My point is, if a person is going to throw a bible verse out there and interpret it so strictly, then why not interpret all of them that strictly?

Because some of them are no longer in force for Christians.

[techboy]

I have a funny question that has never been asnwered for me. If Christ was born on Dec. 25th then why do we celebrate the new year on Jan 1st...shouldnt his birthday and the new year be the same day since that is what the current calendar we use is based on... Before Christ, After Christ.

Christ wasn't born on December 25.

[AsburySkinsFan]

cap pun is supported by the bible.

Yep, for adulteresses, back talking children, witches, beastialists, and gays. Looks like we're gonna have full prisons. Consistency is what we're asking for mate.

[BigMike619]

I didn't say you cherry picked **** nor did I call you a sinner, but the bible quote that you threw out there is one of the most popular verses that Xtians like to use when talking about gays/gay rights in a political tone.

My point is, if a person is going to throw a bible verse out there and interpret it so strictly, then why not interpret all of them that strictly?

And as far as non-believers using bible verses....why not? It's using your own evidence against you. (not you personally, but Xtians in general).

first off I love the not you personally..I use that myself all the time when making points.

second off, I have admitted (and Im sure not shockingly) that I am a sinner. My whole point in pointing out that verse was just to show where the Bible says that. I personally have no problems with people living how they live but it does say right there in that verse that God is against homomsexuality. and that is what 81monk is saying; maybe a little less harsh then he does but thats what he was saying. :2cents:

I just find it kind of amusing that people who are agnostic or athiest can call me out on my belief when they either question its validity or just plain ol dont believe. Thats like me telling a voodoo practicioner that they are using the wrong ingredients or mixing it wrong. I dont believe in that stuff anyways so who am I to tell you?

ps, I am a sinner and you dont have to worry if you call me one.

[shk75]

Christ wasn't born on December 25.

Well if Christ was not born on Dec 25th why do people celebrate his birthday then. Isn't chirstmas the celebration of his birth? Frogive my ignorance I am not trying to be funny, I am Jewish and have always wanted this question answered.

[HOF44]

The thing is if the universe is to impressive and to vast to have happened on its own, how could a diety/being/whatever that is powerful and even more impressive,have not been created?

I certainly don't have the answer and come in under the agnostic flag, but that logic flaw always bothers me.

Translated, the chicken and the egg.

If the argument is something as complex as the universe needs a creator, why is it illogical to conclude that something as complex and powerful as God must need a creator?

To me its just all about where you want to stop. Eventually something just had to be. I just don't see the logical difference between picking the universe or God.

Now you're changing the argument. You suggested that it was logically flawed for a theist to claim God as a cause for the universe when there is no appreciable cause for God. That isn't a flaw at all, as I showed.

Whether or not there are good reasons to believe in a finite universe vs. an infinite one, or God being infinite, is a different question altogether.

Did I? I completely understand why a theist believes the way they do. They have scriptures to tell them so and they have faith in those scriptures.

[prophet]

Well, except that apparently some do.

quite possibly true... sure does lead to alot of questions

[alexey]

That's exactly the point. We can draw that conclusion without having to explain how the humans got there, or who they were, etc. It is illogical and ultimately self-defeating to reject an explanation just because there might not be an explanation for the explanation.

It doesn't work because we know that humans exist and we also know what evidence of human activity looks like.

[AsburySkinsFan]

That pitcure you posted offended so much. You are making fun of piles of crap who can't defend themsleves.

Stop being a child.

Hate to say it, but what you believe is a watered down version from what the bible teaches. just sayin

Well unless you're for the capital punishment for gays, adulteresses, witches and back talking children then so are you.

[Ax]

Reading the Bible causes you to follow Buddha?

I need this explained.

Pretty Good ~ John Prine

3rd Verse

I heard Allah and Buddha were singing at the Savior's feast

And up the sky and Arabian rabbi

Fed Quaker oats to a priest.

Pretty good, not bad, they can't complain

Cause actually all them gods is just about the same

Hows that?

[BigMike619]

Stop being a child.

Well unless you're for the capital punishment for gays, adulteresses, witches and back talking children then so are you.

you 2 are BOTH very intelligent on matters like this. can we just squash this and get back to what we are really doing here?

I respect both of you when it comes to matters of religion but this is kind of bickering and beneath the both of you. :2cents:

[techboy]

Well if Christ was not born on Dec 25th why do people celebrate his birthday then. Isn't chirstmas the celebration of his birth? Frogive my ignorance I am not trying to be funny, I am Jewish and have always wanted this question answered.

The short answer is that when the Church stopped being persecuted and started doing the persecuting (joke... sort of), one of the tactics they used to assist in the conversion of pagans was to place a Christian holiday on their holy days.

Christmas was to replace the Winter Solistice.

A timely example is "All-Hallows Eve", which was to replace Samhain.

Happy Samhain, er, Halloween.

[techboy]

It doesn't work because we know that humans exist and we also know what evidence of human activity looks like.

You're entirely missing the point. The example has nothing to do with whether or not it is appropriate for a theist to conclude that God exists due to evidence around him. It is an explanation of why "who designed the designer" is not a valid criticism of said method.

Again, demanding an explanation for every explanation leads to an infinite regress and the effective destruction of all knowledge.

[#98QBKiller]

first off I love the not you personally..I use that myself all the time when making points.

second off, I have admitted (and Im sure not shockingly) that I am a sinner. My whole point in pointing out that verse was just to show where the Bible says that. I personally have no problems with people living how they live but it does say right there in that verse that God is against homomsexuality. and that is what 81monk is saying; maybe a little less harsh then he does but thats what he was saying. :2cents:

I just find it kind of amusing that people who are agnostic or athiest can call me out on my belief when they either question its validity or just plain ol dont believe. Thats like me telling a voodoo practicioner that they are using the wrong ingredients or mixing it wrong. I dont believe in that stuff anyways so who am I to tell you?

ps, I am a sinner and you dont have to worry if you call me one.

I understand your point man and I understand why you quoted that verse and what it very clearly says in regards to homosexuality. But from a secular viewpoint, it's hard to understand why people of the Christian faith are so adamant about a handful of biblical quotes but others are just left for dust in the wind (yes I went there ) and that's why I put the Leviticus quote out there (which is one of many that are open to silly interpretation).

The second part I can't agree with. Just because I am not a believer doesn't mean that I can't question the way a believer intreprets the bible. It's like saying since you aren't a Cowboys fan you can't question the shady moves that Jerry Jones makes.

Oh and I know you're a sinner...you're a part of the Slaytanic army my man

[shk75]

The short answer is that when the Church stopped being persecuted and started doing the persecuting (joke... sort of), one of the tactics they used to assist in the conversion of pagans was to place a Christian holiday on their holy days.

Christmas was to replace the Winter Solistice.

A timely example is "All-Hallows Eve", which was to replace Samhain.

Happy Samhain, er, Halloween.

So then do we celebrate the birth of Christ twice?? The 25th (the fake celebration) and the 1st (the real celebration)????

[AsburySkinsFan]

Jude 7-16

Paul is talking about those in the church not the government, not about denying civil rights to gays.

Romans 13-(especially versus 2-4) speaks to christians obeying the governing bodies which make the laws.

Yes! I love this verse especially when it is used as a blanket approval or God ordained blessing for everything that a government does, wonderful, and its perfect when reading Revelation that talks about how the powers of the Earth come against God....wait God ordained governments attacking God...uhhh? Oh, maybe that's not supposed to be a universal application.

1 peter 2:13-14 Talks again about governing bodies and the power God gives them to punish evildoers.

Yeah, more universal application wonderful.

[techboy]

So then do we celebrate the birth of Christ twice?? The 25th (the fake celebration) and the 1st (the real celebration)????

As a Jew, you likely don't celebrate it at all.

Seriously, no, because nobody has an actual date, though many scholars believe it was some time in the spring, given the context of the story.

[shk75]

As a Jew, you likely don't celebrate it at all.

Seriously, no, because nobody has an actual date, though many scholars believe it was some time in the spring, given the context of the story.

LOL Touche!! I just am so lost and never got how this calendar system works. I get like 30 different explanations from people but not one that I really think is the right one or that I get. So neither the 25th or the 1st is his birthday but people celebrate both??? I am so lost:doh:

[BigMike619]

I understand your point man and I understand why you quoted that verse and what it very clearly says in regards to homosexuality. But from a secular viewpoint, it's hard to understand why people of the Christian faith are so adamant about a handful of biblical quotes but others are just left for dust in the wind (yes I went there ) and that's why I put the Leviticus quote out there (which is one of many that are open to silly interpretation).

The second part I can't agree with. Just because I am not a believer doesn't mean that I can't question the way a believer intreprets the bible. It's like saying since you aren't a Cowboys fan you can't question the shady moves that Jerry Jones makes.

Oh and I know you're a sinner...you're a part of the Slaytanic army my man

the only reason I can think of is because people like to point their finger and go "sinner!!" outside of that hysterical website you posted about shrimp I dont see many christians protesting seafood.

and yeah, i was in that army and my dad used to kick my ass on a steady for it...lol

[alexey]

You're entirely missing the point. The example has nothing to do with whether or not it is appropriate for a theist to conclude that God exists due to evidence around him. It is an explanation of why "who designed the designer" is not a valid criticism of said method.

Again, demanding an explanation for every explanation leads to an infinite regress and the effective destruction of all knowledge.

That does not mean we should allow explanations that are not grounded.

There is nothing wrong with having partial knowledge (e.g. it is likely that humans were here because we found evidence of human activity and we know what human activity looks like). I am not sure how lacking the knowledge about the way humans got there changes anything.

If an explanation is sensible, it is non-sensical to demand that this explanation also have an explanation.

What were you trying to say by this in relation to belief in God?

[AsburySkinsFan]

They can't.

I think these sum it up pretty well.

Matthew 13:15; 2 Timothy 4:2-4; Hosea 4:6

Nice, real nice.

The only problem is that each of those could be used against you in the same manner, but then I'm not the one saying that because you appose Obama that you're a non-Christian.

[#98QBKiller]

the only reason I can think of is because people like to point their finger and go "sinner!!" outside of that hysterical website you posted about shrimp I dont see many christians protesting seafood.

and yeah, i was in that army and my dad used to kick my ass on a steady for it...lol

Lol I had a couple of my tapes thrown out back in the day too....my mom saw the cover of 'Show no Mercy' and wasn't having it....I won eventually though.

[techboy]

the only reason I can think of is because people like to point their finger and go "sinner!!" outside of that hysterical website you posted about shrimp I dont see many christians protesting seafood.

Try reading the New Testament. Both Jesus and Paul say that food cannot make a person unclean. It's because Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice.